Why FBI and Police Returned to the 9mm

[simon1]

Very cool, what caliber? I keep a little Polish P64 as my pocket pistol, 9mm makarov. Always wanted a Derringer

A trotline weight quality thing that's called an F.I.E. .38 Special. Got it over 30 years ago for about $50 because it was cheap, but it's almost never carried. F.I.E. has been out of business for a long time.

I've been thinking about getting a Bond Arms .357/.38 so I would at least have one that is of some quality.

FTFY

Rob is always needing his stuff fixed.

 

[nortac]

While the Bond Arms look very robust and of high quality, my impression (from advertising only) is that their bulk is equal to that of a multi shot alternative. But it would be cool to have one.

 

[simon1]

Very cool, what caliber? I keep a little Polish P64 as my pocket pistol, 9mm makarov. Always wanted a Derringer

Here's a pic of the trotline weight.

I want one of these...just 'cause.

 

[Ad Astra]

.40 still looks good, this time as a compromise in terms of number of rounds on tap.

AA

 

[Champion of Capua]

Here's a pic of the trotline weight.

I want one of these...just 'cause.

I dig it! And look at that flat trigger, decades ahead of the curve.

 

[OkieStubble]

FTFY

I was half asleep.

 

[OkieStubble]

I am enjoying this.

I carry an LCP with a plus 1 mag for personal defense and a 2nd mag in my watch pocket.
For duty I have carried a .357, 9mm, and .40.
All have been service issued.
We are returning to 9mm.
Personally, it doesn’t matter to me.
Tell me what I’ve got to carry and I will become proficient with it because my life depends on it.
My favorite duty weapon of all was the Glock 17. It just felt right.

My department allows for all three calibers now. They are also allowing duty pistols to be Dept. issued in Glock 17,19, 22, 23, 21, 30, or Personal Glocks of the same model and now officer's personal models S&W M&P 2.0 and Sigs P320, P320 Compact and most likely very soon, the XCarry and the XCompact are all allowed in whatever of the three calibers an officer chooses, as long as they qualify with their choice.

No double action first pull or hammer fired pistols are allowed Nor are 1911's nor Springfield XD's or CZ's nor Beretta's. Only Striker fired pistols of the three brands I mentioned are allowed. Years ago, the reasons for the continuity of the same calibers and weapons had to do with the logic of sharing magazines in a gunfight.

But over the decades, this logic has never bored out with everyone carrying at least 3 magazines and 45 rounds on them. Hell, the younger ones now, carry 3 mags on their belt and one up the chute, for a total of 60 rounds plus rifles and shotguns.

I know it sounds like I have had something to do with our EQ policies @simon1, but I did not. Training and Equipment policies are created by Admins who are alot younger than me. They know old guys like us, our training brains are out of date and not up to code.

So many people have made fun of my carrying a .380 off duty but not a single one of them has let me shoot them with it!!

I know right? Lol'd.

 

[OkieStubble]

.40 still looks good, this time as a compromise in terms of number of rounds on tap.

AA

When I was up and coming in the early 90's, all I heard was the huge fights over 9mm and .45. the constant debate that almost started gunfights between the two groups, was fast, small and light better, or big, heavy and slow.

Then the .40 came along and we didn't have to choose anymore, cuz we could now have both. The .40 gave a big, heavy bullet, which was moving really, really fast. And I didn't have to settle for a 7 round magazine like a .45 1911 either?

Hell yeah! Sold!

 

[OkieStubble]

The more rounds in a magazine, the longer you stay in the fight (before you have to reload).
To paraphrase civil war general Nathan Bedford Forest "Be there firstest with the mostest."

I really liked this!

 

[nortac]

When I started as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff, back in the early 90's, for some odd reason it was deemed that reserve officers could only carry revolvers. I guess they didn't have the training budget at that time to teach and qualify volunteers who's shooting background was so varied, I dunno. So I started with a S&W 686 loaded with .357 mag.
Eventually, they let reserves carry semi-autos and .40 S&W was all the rage. Reserve officers had to buy their own guns and gear. We could carry 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP. The Sheriffs department had a group blue label buy from SIG and I opted for a P229 in .40 S&W. A few years later, we started a bicycle patrol, of which I was one of the first members. Sweaty business here in the humid deep Gulf South. I found that my SIG metal magazines were getting rusty, so I converted to a Glock 21 in .45 ACP. I felt well armed with all three weapons. So we had a choice of .38 Spl, .357 mag, 9 mm, .40 S&W and .45ACP in either S&W, Colt, Beretta, Glock or SIG. I think Ruger was allowed in revolvers only. So when we went to qualify, they had all of the above caliber choices in range ammo available. I'd bring all of my guns that I was allowed to carry on or off duty and qualify with them. So in addition to the above three duty weapons, I'd also bring my S&W Air Weight Bodyguard in .38 spl. and my .357 mag. S&W Model 66 2 1/2 in. I did not buy my Glock 19 until after I had left the S.O. This was all before a State wide CCW permit was available, so it was important to me to be qualified with anything that I might carry off duty on my badge in lieu of a CCW permit.

 

[Esox]

I see both sides of the coin.

Jeff Cooper and Elmer Keith were both big heavy bullet believers and so am I, sometimes. High velocity of a lighter bullet on the other hand does things to tissue that are difficult to describe.

On game animals Keith said you could "eat right up to the bullet hole" with slower large caliber bullets. Thats basically true. Anyone thats shot a deer at 100 yards, or even 300 yards with a .270 Winchester will have seen the affects of velocity in tissue damage.

A bear I shot at 40 yards with a .338 Lapua loaded with a 200 Grain Nosler Ballistic Tip at 3500fps mv took all of that energy to the heart and lungs, no exit wound, and still ran flat out for 75 yards. The heart and lungs were a mass of congealed red jelly. Would it have done the same if shot with a 45/70? Possibly, but the effects would have been much different. You can visually see how game animals react to each type. They seeming take a high velocity round more easily than a heavy slower round. A Moose shot with a 30/06 may not even react, but a Moose shot with a 45/70 will react, visibly. Frontal diameter of a bullet makes a difference.

A bullets effect on a human being is no different but us humans are lighter and built in a more fragile way. I have two friends, one retired SAS and one retired Selous Scout, both have extensive combat experience. I once asked them both their opinions on the .223 vs the .308, AR's vs FN's. They both responded than the AR is a wounder and the FN is a killer.

If it came time for me to pick either velocity or bullet weight against a human target I'd follow Jeff Coopers wisdom that big bullets stop fights.

 

[simon1]

My department allows for all three calibers now. They are also allowing duty pistols to be Dept. issued in Glock 17,19, 22, 23, 21, 30, or Personal Glocks of the same model and now officer's personal models S&W M&P 2.0 and Sigs P320, P320 Compact and most likely very soon, the XCarry and the XCompact are all allowed in whatever of the three calibers an officer chooses, as long as they qualify with their choice.

No double action first pull or hammer fired pistols are allowed Nor are 1911's nor Springfield XD's or CZ's nor Beretta's. Only Striker fired pistols of the three brands I mentioned are allowed. Years ago, the reasons for the continuity of the same calibers and weapons had to do with the logic of sharing magazines in a gunfight.

But over the decades, this logic has never bored out with everyone carrying at least 3 magazines and 45 rounds on them. Hell, the younger ones now, carry 3 mags on their belt and one up the chute, for a total of 60 rounds plus rifles and shotguns.

I know it sounds like I have had something to do with our EQ policies @simon1, but I did not. Training and Equipment policies are created by Admins who are alot younger than me. They know old guys like us, our training brains are out of date and not up to code.

When I started as a Reserve Deputy Sheriff, back in the early 90's, for some odd reason it was deemed that reserve officers could only carry revolvers. I guess they didn't have the training budget at that time to teach and qualify volunteers who's shooting background was so varied, I dunno. So I started with a S&W 686 loaded with .357 mag.
Eventually, they let reserves carry semi-autos and .40 S&W was all the rage. ge ammo available. Reserve officers had to buy their own guns and gear. We could carry 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

My department used to only allow Colt or Smith & Wesson, in .38 or 9mm or better. One guy wanted to carry his Ruger wonder nine but couldn't due to the Dept. questioning its quality (huh?). Then later they allowed other ones that had a proven track record and he got to carry his Ruger.

 

[OkieStubble]

If it came time for me to pick either velocity or bullet weight against a human target I'd follow Jeff Coopers wisdom that big bullets stop fights.

This is exactly why I like the .40. I don't have to choose tossing an slow anvil (.45ACP) and hope the size is enough, or throwing a brick, (9mm) as fast as I can and hope the speed of that brick does it's job.

Now, I can throw that anvil (.40 S&W) as fast as a brick, (.40 S&W) and let the effective combination of size AND speed, do it's job.

 

[Esox]

This is exactly why I like the .40. I don't have to choose tossing an slow anvil (.45ACP) and hope the size is enough, or throwing a brick, (9mm) as fast as I can and hope the speed of that brick does it's job.

Now, I can throw that anvil (.40 S&W) as fast as a brick, (.40 S&W) and let the effective combination of size AND speed, do it's job.

Thats what it was designed for, an effective combination of both. I remember years ago reading about it as an improvement over the 9mm. There were case reports of the 9mm, not sure which load, that failed to penetrate car tires on suspect vehicles and of deflections against car windshields. The .40S&W was meant to stop that from happening.

 

[KW Driver]

nor Springfield XD's or CZ's nor Beretta's.

They say why not these?

 

[OkieStubble]

They say why not these?

Yes. It's because police officers do not become police officers when they are old. They become police officers when they are young and the lion's share, have not had the skill pf having firearms passed down to them, anymore then our descendants passed down proper shaving and DE and Straight razors down to us.

The training of the young, when it comes to carrying and using a service pistol in regards to operating, using, accuracy, consistency, self defense and combat, are generally better served with the consistency of a striker fired service pistol.

In which training, doesn't require teaching them to learn how to be life depending accurate, with an overly heavy, first trigger pull of a double action hammered pistol, to then having to mentally transition to a single action pull afterwards.

Choosing instead, the simplicity and consistency of having a much lighter, single action feeling trigger, from the very first life depending shot to the very last life depending shot. This would rule out most double action brands with hammers.

1911's are ruled out because it's easier and more efficient of time and money when training, to teach ONLY finger discipline for "after the draw", and not finger and thumb safety discipline for "during the draw."

Springfield XD's while striker fired, have a redundant grip safety, which is pretty much self explanatory, when training the young.

 

[ackvil]

Our local PD allows any 9mm pistol as long as you get qualified if you pass several tests. However, you can carry as backup any 9mm Glock without any additional testing. The individual in charge of all training has said that 95% of the officers, both on patrol and detectives, stick to Glocks.

 

[Champion of Capua]

Our local PD allows any 9mm pistol as long as you get qualified if you pass several tests. However, you can carry as backup any 9mm Glock without any additional testing. The individual in charge of all training has said that 95% of the officers, both on patrol and detectives, stick to Glocks.

I can see that, if you spend all that time training over and over on the same weapon, makes sense that would also be your personal defense.
I do feel however that an entire generation is missing out on some great handguns because they have a decocker or God forbid a safety.

 

[KW Driver]

Springfield XD's while striker fired, have a redundant grip safety, which is pretty much self explanatory, when training the young.

Yeah, I assumed the rest with the elimination clauses you listed, and I quoted these makers specifically because I assumed Beretta had a Stryker I wasn’t aware of, CZ makes high quality strykers, and others.... and the XD is disqual’d for a grip Safety? Uh... your org, your rules boss man, I guess.

DAO, DA/SA... My disqual’s personally as well. Ease of training and... design commonality, sure. Couldn’t figure out why a CZ Stryker would be disqual’d.

 

[martym]

In 33 years I have never carried a duty weapon or personal defense weapon equipped with a safety.

On a sad note just now 5 dead, 21 wounded near the town where I grew up; Odessa, Tx. 1 Texas State Trooper shot.

I just watched the body of State Trooper Moises Sanchez arrive here locally this morning. He was killed in the line of duty.