Why FBI and Police Returned to the 9mm

[OkieStubble]

Yeah, I assumed the rest with the elimination clauses you listed, and I quoted these makers specifically because I assumed Beretta had a Stryker I wasn’t aware of, CZ makes high quality strykers, and others.... and the XD is disqual’d for a grip Safety? Uh... your org, your rules boss man, I guess.

DAO, DA/SA... My disqual’s personally as well. Ease of training and... design commonality, sure. Couldn’t figure out why a CZ Stryker would be disqual’d.

The department doesn't belong to me @KW Driver; and I haven't had a say in the equipment or training decisions, since my promotion in 2015. When that was my decision and my rules @KW Driver, Policy only allowed the Glock 22 and 23 in .40 and all sidearms were issued sidearms. There was no personal weapons allowed.

How about that for an @OkieStubble authored standard? And I was the big bad boss man as you say.

A police department cannot authorize every single brand of firearm, because it happens to be popular with civilian enthusiasts @KW Driver. They cannot approve every single pistol brand, because some other department, somewhere in the world, happens to approve a brand that they don't either.

What they do have to do, is keep the list, small & affordable for humble department budgets and keep the brands they do decide on, as close to the same in training standards. Glock, Sig Sauer and the S&W M&P are the three most standardized brands that have a generalized consensus amongst police departments nationwide and the world.

So I am pretty sure, that this was what inspired the decision of the thinking heads that are in charge now in my department @KW Driver, not what I personally think or like about the Glock, or what you think, like, or even possibly dislike about the CZ, XD or any other pistol. I appreciate you calling me boss man, but they could care less about my opinion. And even possibly, lesser about yours.

 

[simon1]

On a sad note just now 5 dead, 21 wounded near the town where I grew up; Odessa, Tx. 1 Texas State Trooper shot.

I just watched the body of State Trooper Moises Sanchez arrive here locally this morning. He was killed in the line of duty.

I saw that. There has always been mean, bad people but it seems like the moral fabric of the country is slowly being destroyed. But...there are that many shot or killed in Chicago in about an hour. All the more reason to CCW.

 

[martym]

I often leave home without my American Express Card but never without my .380.

 

[jar_]

In 33 years I have never carried a duty weapon or personal defense weapon equipped with a safety.

On a sad note just now 5 dead, 21 wounded near the town where I grew up; Odessa, Tx. 1 Texas State Trooper shot.

I just watched the body of State Trooper Moises Sanchez arrive here locally this morning. He was killed in the line of duty.

Jose Espericueta just a couple months ago too.

 

[martym]

Yes!! I stopped yesterday morning where Speedy was killed. The spot at the fence where they have a poster sized photo of him and a U.S. Flag hanging on the fence. (You know the spot.)
Said a prayer

Drove by the Mission DPS office (near the post office) the day before and said a prayer in front of Trooper Sanchez’ unit!!

 

[simon1]

I often leave home without my American Express Card but never without my .380.

I finally found some .45 Colt regular velocity ammo for the SAA that was in stock. I guess they don't sell much of that since the Cowboy Action Shooting powder puff one with a 250 gr. bullet moving at the low 700 something fps. is everywhere. Ordered a box of the 250 gr. lead RNFP at about 830 fps. and will see if they shoot more to point of aim than the cowboy loads. If they still shoot a bit low I'll file the front sight down a bit.

I have an El Paso Saddlery IWB for it. I don't mind carrying it, it's lighter than my L frame but has a lot more punch that my .38 Cobra.

 

[KW Driver]

OakieStubble, the boss man thing wasn’t directed at you, but the generic “pronoun people” upon high that make the rules for those who have to execute policy.

No offense was intended.

 

[simon1]

OakieStubble, the boss man thing wasn’t directed at you, but the generic “pronoun people” upon high that make the rules for those who have to execute policy.

No offense was intended.

If I know Rob, he didn't take it that way. He knows exactly the context you meant it in, now that he has thought about it for a bit. I knew what you meant.

Rob can be a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

This should probably be in another thread, if at all, but I wonder how many are prepared for the aftermath of a shooting. Rob, I know you are. The thick brain blood pool can be about 3 feet in diameter. Or no blood at all, just swelling of the tissue damage for a body shot.

 

[OkieStubble]

OakieStubble, the boss man thing wasn’t directed at you, but the generic “pronoun people” upon high that make the rules for those who have to execute policy.

No offense was intended.

I appreciate the clarification KWD. No worries my friend.

 

[OkieStubble]

If I know Rob, he didn't take it that way. He knows exactly the context you meant it in, now that he has thought about it for a bit. I knew what you meant.

It wasn't exactly the "boss man" that bothered me. I've had many a smart *** felon call me this. I think it was more the added "comma" afterward, with the "I guess" that I allowed to negatively effect me. I do sincerely apologize for any off remarks I made, now that I have received a clarification.

Rob can be a little slow on the uptake sometimes.

This is true.

This should probably be in another thread, if at all, but I wonder how many are prepared for the aftermath of a shooting. Rob, I know you are.

There are many virtues which are bestowed upon a man by God as gifts. Wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel, fortitude, piety, and fear of the Lord. Patience, also bestowed by God, not as a gift however, but as a "worked virtue." This virtue only comes by the experiences of extreme adversity thru various trials. God will not allow preparedness as a standard, as not to allow the virtue of patience to be tempered in any way.

In saying this, I can succinctly tell you. There is a difference between losing someone and killing someone. You can resolve yourself of losing someone; and even justify yourself of killing someone. But there is no way to ever prepare for the realization that you can not or will not ever, relieve yourself of killing someone. Even if/when justified.

It will always be with you.

The thick brain blood pool can be about 3 feet in diameter. Or no blood at all, just swelling of the tissue damage for a body shot.

Eewwww, now that's just gross.

 

[Esox]

All the more reason to CCW.

This is something that, as a Canadian who isnt allowed to carry a firearm, I have a hard time understanding. I've read about the recent Texas shooting this morning and it appears the shooter covered quite a lot of ground yet there were no reports of anyone shooting back, other than the police.

Canadians in general I think, and certainly the ones I know among the gun crowd, have a difficult time rationalizing this. If the law allows you to carry, why would you not?

I think many of us here in Canada, when the topic comes up of firearms carry, just assume that half the population of a state such as Texas is carrying yet there are never any reports of a random shooter being decked by a citizen. Is that accurate or does it just go unreported by the mass media?

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

 

[KW Driver]

The “I guess” was intended to speak to a ground guy’s reaction to hearing the policy for the first time.

I’ve known enough prison guards that anytime I got a “boss” from someone I wondered if they were a convict.

I should have thought about that when I hung that thought.

 

[simon1]

This is something that, as a Canadian who isnt allowed to carry a firearm, I have a hard time understanding.

I've never been to Canada, or even close, but a friend of mine grew up in Toronto before she moved to Texas. She said it's a different culture up north. She has a Glock .40 now.

I think many of us here in Canada, when the topic comes up of firearms carry, just assume that half the population of a state such as Texas is carrying yet there are never any reports of a random shooter being decked by a citizen. Is that accurate or does it just go unreported by the mass media?

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

The media does not like reporting incidents like that. Anyone that's worked as a cop has seen incidents such as this, and there are many more:

13 Times Last Month an Armed Citizen Stopped a Crime | Amy Swearer

UPDATED: Compiling Cases where concealed handgun permit holders have stopped mass public shootings and other mass attacks - Crime Prevention Research Center

Armed Citizen Helps Police in Shootout - AllOutdoor.com

Armed stranger saves police officer during deadly shootout - CNN

 

[Esox]

I've never been to Canada, or even close, but a friend of mine grew up in Toronto before she moved to Texas. She said it's a different culture up north. She has a Glock .40 now.

It is a different culture and its changing, again. In the last 5 years alone violent crime has increased at a rapid pace and really the only option we have is to avoid, as difficult as that may sound, its really our only legal option. We're at the mercy of the police. No offense intended, but the police usually arrive after the fact. A lot can happen in the 2 minutes between contacting 911 and their arrival.

The media does not like reporting incidents like that. Anyone that's worked as a cop has seen incidents such as this, and there are many more:

13 Times Last Month an Armed Citizen Stopped a Crime | Amy Swearer

UPDATED: Compiling Cases where concealed handgun permit holders have stopped mass public shootings and other mass attacks - Crime Prevention Research Center

Armed Citizen Helps Police in Shootout - AllOutdoor.com

Armed stranger saves police officer during deadly shootout - CNN

Thank you! Thats exactly what I needed to see. We never hear of that happening up here, but I'm glad to see it does.

 

[martym]

Most of the time when an armed citizen stops a crime it does not make national news because nothing “spectacular” happened and because it goes against their agenda.
However It does happen.
As for yesterday. It was a moving gun battle. The shooter was in a moving vehicle shooting randomly. Had an armed Good Samaritan attempted to give chase and stop the shooter in all the chaos he may have been mistaken for a shooter and shot by police.
Earlier this week I took this photo at a local tire shop.

Texas is a concealed and an open carry state.

 

[Esox]

Most of the time when an armed citizen stops a crime it does not make national news because nothing “spectacular” happened and because it goes against their agenda.
However It does happen.
As for yesterday. It was a moving gun battle. The shooter was in a moving vehicle shooting randomly. Had an armed Good Samaritan attempted to give chase and stop the shooter in all the chaos he may have been mistaken for a shooter and shot by police.
Earlier this week I took this photo at a local tire shop.

View attachment 1013115

Texas is a concealed and an open carry state.

Moving yes and shooting while on the move. Its a difficult scenario and easily speculated upon. Coulda, woulda, shoulda, but I see your point.

Seeing a sign like that Marty would make me feel completely at ease. Judicious marksmanship is appreciated, ammo isnt cheap! lol.

Unfortunately, we'll never see such things here where most people react with fear at the mere mention of someone being a gun owner.

 

[jar_]

This is something that, as a Canadian who isnt allowed to carry a firearm, I have a hard time understanding. I've read about the recent Texas shooting this morning and it appears the shooter covered quite a lot of ground yet there were no reports of anyone shooting back, other than the police.

Canadians in general I think, and certainly the ones I know among the gun crowd, have a difficult time rationalizing this. If the law allows you to carry, why would you not?

I think many of us here in Canada, when the topic comes up of firearms carry, just assume that half the population of a state such as Texas is carrying yet there are never any reports of a random shooter being decked by a citizen. Is that accurate or does it just go unreported by the mass media?

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” ― Robert A. Heinlein

There is more to it than sheer numbers.

As a responsible gun owner I believe my first and most important job is to not use the gun I'm carrying with the near equal corollary of "First do not make things worse."

I'm a civilian and not serving warrants, making arrests, doing traffic stops. I also think I have a fairly reasonable assessment of my personal capabilities.

During any mass shooting event there is panic with people reacting in every way imaginable. Were I in such a situation I would not try to go get the shooter; instead my job would be to do my best to direct traffic and help folk to shelter and to act as a rear guard within a relatively small radius.

Pulling out my gun would simply increase panic and confusion. With people rushing about the likelihood of having a clear shot without causing the potential of even more harm is really small.

What I can do though is try to place myself in a position with a clear line of sight within about a 5 or 10 yard radius and try to get those within that radius down as low as possible and behind as much shelter as can be created.

If the shooter comes in sight within that perimeter then I will try to take a shot but ONLY if I can do so without endangering yet more people.

It's easy to imagine being a hero but in reality, if I can just keep those within my immediate area safe at the end then it's a win. But such things rightly are not news worth.

 

[martym]

Be a good witness.
Unless your life or another’s is in imminent danger. Then you do whatever it takes.

This is the best advice I can give to anyone.

 

[Esox]

There is more to it than sheer numbers.

As a responsible gun owner I believe my first and most important job is to not use the gun I'm carrying with the near equal corollary of "First do not make things worse."

I'm a civilian and not serving warrants, making arrests, doing traffic stops. I also think I have a fairly reasonable assessment of my personal capabilities.

During any mass shooting event there is panic with people reacting in every way imaginable. Were I in such a situation I would not try to go get the shooter; instead my job would be to do my best to direct traffic and help folk to shelter and to act as a rear guard within a relatively small radius.

Pulling out my gun would simply increase panic and confusion. With people rushing about the likelihood of having a clear shot without causing the potential of even more harm is really small.

What I can do though is try to place myself in a position with a clear line of sight within about a 5 or 10 yard radius and try to get those within that radius down as low as possible and behind as much shelter as can be created.

If the shooter comes in sight within that perimeter then I will try to take a shot but ONLY if I can do so without endangering yet more people.

It's easy to imagine being a hero but in reality, if I can just keep those within my immediate area safe at the end then it's a win. But such things rightly are not news worth.

I agree completely. Protect but dont engage unless it becomes necessary. It would be unwise for a civilian to make them self a target. A good example of that might be a video in a link @simon1 posted above.

UPDATED: Compiling Cases where concealed handgun permit holders have stopped mass public shootings and other mass attacks - Crime Prevention Research Center

He knew what was coming and had what it takes to do what he did. From that video footage you can see that he didnt actively engage with his rifle. He made himself a target instead of letting others become the target. Thats a heroic act. At the same time, he drew the shooters attention away from his intended targets, I believe, with the full intent of protecting those inside while putting himself at great risk. He understood the repercussions of that act and responded instantly.

People that do things like he did in that video should be national and even international news because it is spectacular.

My main point was that here in Canada we dont hear about things like that taking place. We only hear the bad news so most people are ignorant of the fact that things like this even take place.

My other point was that those of us in the gun culture here basically assume that in places were you can carry a firearm, virtually everyone does, so why dont we hear about these things happening? Now that I understand they do happen, quite often even, I understand better why we dont hear about them.

 

[jar_]

I agree completely. Protect but dont engage unless it becomes necessary. It would be unwise for a civilian to make them self a target. A good example of that might be a video in a link @simon1 posted above.

UPDATED: Compiling Cases where concealed handgun permit holders have stopped mass public shootings and other mass attacks - Crime Prevention Research Center

He knew what was coming and had what it takes to do what he did. From that video footage you can see that he didnt actively engage with his rifle. He made himself a target instead of letting others become the target. Thats a heroic act. At the same time, he drew the shooters attention away from his intended targets, I believe, with the full intent of protecting those inside while putting himself at great risk. He understood the repercussions of that act and responded instantly.

People that do things like he did in that video should be national and even international news because it is spectacular.

My main point was that here in Canada we dont hear about things like that taking place. We only hear the bad news so most people are ignorant of the fact that things like this even take place.

My other point was that those of us in the gun culture here basically assume that in places were you can carry a firearm, virtually everyone does, so why dont we hear about these things happening? Now that I understand they do happen, quite often even, I understand better why we dont hear about them.

Also keep in mind that even in Texas it is only 3% to 4% of the population that is licensed to carry a gun. So even where there is a so called "gun culture" is is not true that everyone is armed.

In addition, as in the incident in El Paso recently, a significant percentage of the people in the Walmart were likely Mexican citizens over for a day of shopping. By law they are all prevented from being armed so even if there were LTC holders in the crowd they would be an even smaller percentage than the statewide average.