An interesting article in Shooting Illustrated dealing with why the FBI and police went back to the 9 mm.
Why FBI and Police Returned to the 9mm
- Thread starter ackvil
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The key points in the linked article are IMHO that the FBI, as all Federal agencies do, refused to put the blame for the 1986 Miami Shootout where it belonged: agents who went "Cowboy" and got their a@#es handed to them. "Accountants" are no match for resolute & hardened killers, especially when said killers have a long gun. As well, their BS excuse has set back REAL ballistic R&D decades by their obsessive pursuit for more penetration when they knew that many PD's and State agencies were raving about their Street results with the 9mm 115 gr. +p+ JHP, e.g., BPLE and Win. Ranger version of the same.
Seeing today's headline news regarding the former FBI Chief shows that nothing has changed.
Seeing today's headline news regarding the former FBI Chief shows that nothing has changed.
Eating popcorn, watching...
A bureaucracy's bottom line is the bottom line, $!
A shooter's bottom line is shot placement, repeat as needed!
A shooter's bottom line is shot placement, repeat as needed!
9mm ammo can be found in many variants, from the FMJ and JHP's in many grain loadings including +P and +P+ levels, to copper, hard cast and deep penetrating rounds. In guns like Glock 19's and 17's, Sig P226's and other reliable pistols, 9mm gives the shooter, many choices. That's one main reason why I like 9mm... and I also like 45ACP too.
My preference is a .45 because I don’t have to choose between heavy & slow or lite & fast.
A 185 grain .45+P round is devastating because it’s both heavy and fast, expansion & penetration. I understand that LE agencies will never carry +P .45’s, so I don’t take to much of these LE decisions to heart. Interesting article though. From reading articles like this, it appears to me the real reason these agencies are going back to the 9mm is because of recoil and cost. I get it, big calibers are not for everyone, I love shooting my full-size 9’s because they’re fun to shoot with great split times, but I don’t care about fun or splits when it comes to self defense.
The author admits, a 357 Mag is more effective than a .38 Special because of velocity, and that logic also rings true when comparing a .357 sig and a 9mm.
A 185 grain .45+P round is devastating because it’s both heavy and fast, expansion & penetration. I understand that LE agencies will never carry +P .45’s, so I don’t take to much of these LE decisions to heart. Interesting article though. From reading articles like this, it appears to me the real reason these agencies are going back to the 9mm is because of recoil and cost. I get it, big calibers are not for everyone, I love shooting my full-size 9’s because they’re fun to shoot with great split times, but I don’t care about fun or splits when it comes to self defense.
The author admits, a 357 Mag is more effective than a .38 Special because of velocity, and that logic also rings true when comparing a .357 sig and a 9mm.
A well placed shot better with a 9mm than a miss with anything else. Heck, I'd be pretty upset of I was hit by a .22LR Yellow Jacket or other hot, hollow-point round.
I used to shoot 9mm +P+ out of my old Ruger P89 some 20 yrs ago, man that was fun!! Needed an extra power recoil spring though. Without looking it up, I would think a 9mm +P+ to be similar to a 357 Sig.
It's still Location Location Location.
Great article and read Jim. The biggest quote that jumped out at me in this article is:
"The reality is there is such a minute difference in the terminal performance between the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, that the interface between the shooter and the handgun, ammunition capacity and shot placement (accuracy) matter more.
Did you you notice this @simon1? Not just shot placement, but also capacity?
I believe, the biggest factor other then modern ammunition technology, that has closed the gap between what caliber and round you use, is not whether it's a heavy bullet or a fast bullet.It is the mindset and tactics in that mind set. While Mike is correct in saying, you don't want a 'pray and spray' mindset. But you do want to foster the mindset of this:
If you are going to choose to defend yourself with a firearm, because your life or someone else's life is in danger.
1. Shoot first
2. Shoot fast
3. Shoot more
4. And most importantly, shoot accurately.
While the type, kind and brand of defensive ammunition is important, these above four things are just as or more important.
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simon1
Self Ignored by Vista
Great article and read Jim. The biggest quote that jumped out at me in this article is:
"The reality is there is such a minute difference in the terminal performance between the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, that the interface between the shooter and the handgun, ammunition capacity and shot placement (accuracy) matter more.
Did you you notice this @simon1? Not just shot placement, but also capacity?
It is the mindset and tactics in that mind set. While Mike is correct in saying, you don't want a 'pray and spray' mindset. But you do want to foster the mindset of this:
If you are going to choose to defend yourself with a firearm, because your life or someone else's life is in danger.
1. Shoot first
2. Shoot fast
3. Shoot more
4. And most importantly, shoot accurately.
While the type, kind and brand of defensive ammunition is important, these above four things are just as or more important.
I carry a two shot Derringer.
Up close and dirty?
Derringers are knives without gunpowder.
- Thread starter
- #16
Great article and read Jim. The biggest quote that jumped out at me in this article is:
"The reality is there is such a minute difference in the terminal performance between the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, that the interface between the shooter and the handgun, ammunition capacity and shot placement (accuracy) matter more.
Did you you notice this @simon1? Not just shot placement, but also capacity?
It is the mindset and tactics in that mind set. While Mike is correct in saying, you don't want a 'pray and spray' mindset. But you do want to foster the mindset of this:
If you are going to choose to defend yourself with a firearm, because your life or someone else's life is in danger.
1. Shoot first
2. Shoot fast
3. Shoot more
4. And most importantly, shoot accurately.
While the type, kind and brand of defensive ammunition is important, these above four things are just as or more important.
Wise words. A friend of mine is a SWAT trainer. When he held a class for home defense those are the four points he made.
The more rounds in a magazine, the longer you stay in the fight (before you have to reload).
To paraphrase civil war general Nathan Bedford Forest "Be there firstest with the mostest."
To paraphrase civil war general Nathan Bedford Forest "Be there firstest with the mostest."
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FTFY
Very cool, what caliber? I keep a little Polish P64 as my pocket pistol, 9mm makarov. Always wanted a Derringer
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I am enjoying this.
I carry an LCP with a plus 1 mag for personal defense and a 2nd mag in my watch pocket.
For duty I have carried a .357, 9mm, and .40.
All have been service issued.
We are returning to 9mm.
Personally, it doesn’t matter to me.
Tell me what I’ve got to carry and I will become proficient with it because my life depends on it.
My favorite duty weapon of all was the Glock 17. It just felt right.
So many people have made fun of my carrying a .380 off duty but not a single one of them has let me shoot them with it!!
I carry an LCP with a plus 1 mag for personal defense and a 2nd mag in my watch pocket.
For duty I have carried a .357, 9mm, and .40.
All have been service issued.
We are returning to 9mm.
Personally, it doesn’t matter to me.
Tell me what I’ve got to carry and I will become proficient with it because my life depends on it.
My favorite duty weapon of all was the Glock 17. It just felt right.
So many people have made fun of my carrying a .380 off duty but not a single one of them has let me shoot them with it!!
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