Why can't I hone new Ralf Aust on Norton 4k/8k?

[georgerc]

I'm new to wet shaving. I just got a new Ralf Aust. I love it. It arrived honed by the factory and I got some great close shaves out of it. I noticed that I was able to do easy dry touch ups with it indicating that it was very sharp. I would strop it between shaves.
My problem is that I was interested in learning about honing and got a 400/1000/3000/8000 whetstone kit from Amazon. It was cheap, and this may be where I went wrong.
I watched a few honing videos that seemed credible and I wanted to toy around with seeing if I could get it sharper using the 8000.
I made it immediately duller.
So of course I backed down to lower grits trying to get the sharpness back and couldn't shave any hair on my arm until I got down to the 400! Where only a fraction of the hair would shave compared to when it was factory sharp. Then every time I tried to progress back up 1000->3000->8000 it would just get super dull again, so much that it wouldn't shave any arm hair.
So I figured that it was the cheap stones fault and I bought a Norton 4k/8k.
I reviewed the credible honing videos and also ran across forums talking about a hanging hair test.
While honing with the Norton I could never succeed with the hanging hair test, and again could only dry shave a few hairs off my arm.. nothing like the factory sharpness.
One of the honing videos said that if when looking down the edge under a light, no light is reflected then it is sharp.
My razor passed this test, so with this last glimmer of hope I put on the shaving cream to try a wet shave.
Well, I stropped it and it shaved and I did two passes and it really wasn't comfortable. But when I rinsed off to check my work I realized it wasn't very close. Also, when I tried to dry shave the stragglers they wouldn't even cut. This was frustrating since the factory honing allowed me to previously dry shave stragglers without any problem.

How the heck can't I get the Ralf Aust sharp with the Norton 4k/8k?

Should I get a 12k stone?

Am I doing something wrong?

I'm mostly following this video for my honing technique:

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[BigJ]

Suggest you ask the guys on the straights forums.

 

[Wid]

Most likely you have not set the bevel correctly. That's where it all begins, no great bevel set and you will never get a great edge.
A 400 grit stone is about useless on a razor unless there is severe edge damage

I suggest you use tape to minimize the hone wear for the time being.

Send the razor out to be honed. You will most likely get a better edge than the factory edge

Show a pic of the razor, hopefully not to much damage was done with that 400 grit stone

 

[Christian1212]

Make sure your stones are flat most importantly

Bevel set is very important. Probably not ideal but I would just stay on the 4k side until it was set - should be do able and better than messing with the other stones.

Know that the 8k edge will shave, but probably not be as good as the Ralf auat edge. You have a good stone for refreshing/pre finishing - now you just need a finisher.

Choosing a finisher can be a long journey depending on the path. What I recommend to save you time, stress, and guess work is to send it to someone to be honed. Best case would be they can finish the razor in a way you are interested (a stone you want for finishing).

Look at 12k edge (easy and cheapest), natural (ark/jnat/coticule - rabbit holes that are usually expensive), or pasted edges (cheap but very sharp).

 

[JPO]

If you add some TI white paste (or some other fine compound) after your 8k, you should get an ok edge. A small handheld jnat will also give you a nice edge if you learn how to use it, and if you get a quality stone.
A 12k synthetic might give you a marginally better edge then the 8k to paste, if you learn how to dial it in.

 

[Bowmaker]

I'm new to wet shaving. I just got a new Ralf Aust. I love it. It arrived honed by the factory and I got some great close shaves out of it. I noticed that I was able to do easy dry touch ups with it indicating that it was very sharp. I would strop it between shaves.
My problem is that I was interested in learning about honing and got a 400/1000/3000/8000 whetstone kit from Amazon. It was cheap, and this may be where I went wrong.
I watched a few honing videos that seemed credible and I wanted to toy around with seeing if I could get it sharper using the 8000.
I made it immediately duller.
So of course I backed down to lower grits trying to get the sharpness back and couldn't shave any hair on my arm until I got down to the 400! Where only a fraction of the hair would shave compared to when it was factory sharp. Then every time I tried to progress back up 1000->3000->8000 it would just get super dull again, so much that it wouldn't shave any arm hair.
So I figured that it was the cheap stones fault and I bought a Norton 4k/8k.
I reviewed the credible honing videos and also ran across forums talking about a hanging hair test.
While honing with the Norton I could never succeed with the hanging hair test, and again could only dry shave a few hairs off my arm.. nothing like the factory sharpness.
One of the honing videos said that if when looking down the edge under a light, no light is reflected then it is sharp.
My razor passed this test, so with this last glimmer of hope I put on the shaving cream to try a wet shave.
Well, I stropped it and it shaved and I did two passes and it really wasn't comfortable. But when I rinsed off to check my work I realized it wasn't very close. Also, when I tried to dry shave the stragglers they wouldn't even cut. This was frustrating since the factory honing allowed me to previously dry shave stragglers without any problem.

How the heck can't I get the Ralf Aust sharp with the Norton 4k/8k?

Should I get a 12k stone?

Am I doing something wrong?

I'm mostly following this video for my honing technique:

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Stones aren't perfectly flat and razors aren't perfectly straight. Mix in some X strokes and see if that doesn't help.

 

[cugel]

save the Aust until you can hone. The problem is not the razor. Buy some old flea market razors that are in decent shape and start there.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Short answer: They probably microbeveled it; so nothing but 400 grit even affected the edge... whereupon you finally accomplished your goal... sadly your goal was to get the razor honed to 400 grit... and you probably weren't ready to get it back up to shaving sharp...



Long answer:

Buy a cheap razor to learn to hone on and send the Ralf out for honing or set it aside until you're confident on the hones.

I watched a few honing videos that seemed credible

I'm not gonna say that anyone trying to be a youtube personality is talking out their rectum and knows diddly squat.

Where only a fraction of the hair would shave compared to when it was factory sharp. Then every time I tried to progress back up 1000->3000->8000 it would just get super dull again, so much that it wouldn't shave any arm hair.

This generally means you're not being consistent with your angles on something that's freehand honed... but with a razor that shouldn't be a problem as long as you're resting the razor on the hone when honing... maybe it's a pressure issue. Honestly not exactly easy to diagnose through a verbal description... is there someone local to you who knows how to hone?

While honing with the Norton I could never succeed with the hanging hair test, and again could only dry shave a few hairs off my arm.. nothing like the factory sharpness.

Eh, HHT is pretty meaningless unless you know exactly why and what you want to compare with it. Don't get caught up on it. Strop and see if it'll cleanly dry shave a section of your arm/leg/whatever without tugging. If so; restrop and try a shave. But, 8k Norton is not a good stone to shave off of. It's 3 micron... when talking synths I'd say 1.8-2 micron is about the max particle size for a decent shave... Norton doesn't make a synth this fine... you usually have to switch to Asian synths if you want to finish on a synth. The easy/cheap way if you get a decent norton finish is to go to pasted strop or balsa (Used to be 0.5micron Chromox, or one of the Theirs Issard pastes... forget which one, maybe white? Someone remember? (edit:I see JPO knew, so it is white) but there's a million different options now) for a couple stropping passes. That usually cleans up an 8k Norton edge enough it's a decent shave.

Speaking of stropping... You are stropping before your shave right? On a decent leather strop? You can't shave right off stones, you need to strop first (as well as between shaves as you mentioned)

One of the honing videos said that if when looking down the edge under a light, no light is reflected then it is sharp.

Uhh... maybe they're talking about Slurried Jnat finishing? It kinda gives bevels a matte finish that isn't super reflective typically... but even then; that has got to be some of the worst advice for judging edge condition I've ever heard. Sounds like they're trying to translate knife/tool bevel inspection (Large bevels you can really see a lot of information in) into razors (usually very small bevels); and simultaneously dumb it down to the point that they've turned what may have started as meaningful advice into nonsense.

I'm mostly following this video for my honing technique:

Skipped once and immediately greeted with 'You must tape the spine... I've seen a lot of vintage straight razors and they're all destroyed if they didn't tape the spine' (Paraphrased) No, just no. Find another video.

Should I get a 12k stone?

You'll probably need something. A 12k stone (if it's actually 12k) would likely work. I'd assume the cheapo 8k you got may be JIS and thus quite a bit finer than the Norton 8k (Mesh, JIS and Mesh are two different metrics for assigning grit ratings to sharpening stones/abrasives... 8k Mesh is roughly 4k JIS)... but as you mentioned... with the cheap stones; hard to say if it's suitable... worth a try though. Hone on the nortons to 8k then go to the cheapo 8k and see if that gets you any closer to shaving... but again; I'd try this on a cheap razor.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

As said, POST A PHOTO if you want better advice.

The 400 grit will leave you a lot of needless work to overcome, the Norton 1k can handle it. Not to worry, damage is done (But Don’t do it Again). Remove all the super deep 400 stria with the 1k, ALL the deep 400 stria.

Tape the bevel to protect it. There is no point in needlessly grinding/ruining a nice razor learning to hone. Guys that tell you not to tape, already know how to hone. There is no downside to honing with tape, none.

Stropping is your problem, you rolled the edge. Completely common. Until you learn to strop, and you will strop every time before shaving you will continue to roll the edge.

Strop on a new, clean quality strop. Stropping is your last chance to polish the bevel and make the edge as straight as possible. Invest $50 in a Tony Miller beginner strop, linen and leather.

At 1k you look straight down on the edge with magnification, if you see shiny reflections the bevels are not meeting FULLY, the bevel is not set.

95% of honing is FULLY setting the bevel, the rest is just polishing and not mucking up the fully set bevel.

You should be able to shave off a 8k Norton stone, stropped well shave well, 8k pasted edge with Chrome Oxide very well.

Paste is a double edge sword, paste is abrasive an if you have not mastered stropping and are rolling an edge, you will roll or damage a perfect edge twice as fast.

 

[Gamma]

Should I get a 12k stone?

Maybe

Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, everything.


Get a good 1k-ish stone, Stay away from cheap stones on Zon or wherever. Norton 4k/8k is not a fav of mine but it is lightyears better than a Bearmoo or whatever other Aliibaba rejects pop on for Prime delivery.

Get a bevel setter, learn to set the bevel.
The bevel is the edge,
No bevel = no edge.
Learn to set the bevel so you can get a shave.
Then progress - if you must use the N4k, use it, and hone till you can make the bevel set edge better.
Then progress.
The N8k is not a finisher to me - if your Aust was done on a Gok 20k, then that Norton is going to fall miserably short.

But first - keep it simple - learn the bevel and do not progress till you nail it.

 

[kcb5150]

You're just going to have to pick up some dirt cheap expendable blades, flesh out your progression with proven stones and learn by doing. I used to buy razors at flea markets with mild frowns, mild heel droops, mild toe heavy honing, etc on purpose just to work on correcting them when I was learning. A lot of the people on youtube honing razors and acting like authorites on the subject are nothing of the sort and can really steer you wrong.. Besides, you will never get the feel for this by occasionally topping off one razor.

 

[Steve56]

As stated above, there are likely many causes. If you need an edge, I’m glad to help out for return postage and maybe can help with where you’re going wrong.

Good stones suitable for razors run on the high price side, but King stones are cheap and work.

8k is not fine enough for me, except for a few stones like the Naniwa Snow White - but it cracks - and the Shapton Glass 8k HC. These are not cheap stones.

If you want to hone on the cheap, film and pastes will deliver, but the edges tend to be less enjoyable to me than with natural hones, although many people enjoy film/paste edges.

 

[Gamma]

Forgot to mention - don't forget to lap your stones flat, and keep them flat, and chamfer the edges too.

 

[lightfoot]

Most of the frequently watched honing videos are there to offer a general overview of the process but won’t really address various complications often encountered while honing.

That said stone choice is critical. If I were to suggest stones I would recommend the Naniwa Super Stones in the following grits along with an Atoma 600 flattening plate:
1,000
3,000
5,000
12,000

This won’t be cheap but it’s a good lineup and honestly I seldom go down to the 1,000 level unless chips need to be removed.

 

[georgerc]

Forgot to mention - don't forget to lap your stones flat, and keep them flat, and chamfer the edges too.

Hey everyone. Thanks for all of the quality responses. I'm still reading through all of this great info!

Like a total noob, I did a jackass move and didn't lap my stones thinking "the stone is new it should be flat".
From trying to hone on wildly misshapen stones I made my razor blunt.

I know the stones were wildly misshapen since when I finally lapped them using the pencil grid as guidance, my stones looked like a topographical map of the United States.

After lapping the Norton 4k/8k to a smooth surface, I stubbornly worked to reset the bevel on the 4k until I could effortlessly lift hair off my arm. Once at this point I did more work on the lapped 8k, stropped the razor and have been happily wet shaving ever since.

It's still feels like it could use a tad more TLC for a good shave, so I'll continue researching a finer 12k etc using the guidance of this thread.
Once I finalize which stone I'll get, I'll update this thread... hopefully with good news of a slick, smooth shave.

But for now, I'm shaving ok with the lapped 4k/8k Norton stones.

Thanks!

 

[Gamma]

Those stones are a bit soft, the grids will come off before they are actually flat. So you are probably working on a flatter stone than before but possibly not as flat as it should be.
Check flatness with a quality straightedge on 8 axes to be sure.
Happy Honing!

 

[Frank Shaves]

A good 8k finish will shave, but it will not be as comfortable as a good 12k, Arkansas, Coticule or JNAT finish. If I were in your shoes, I would buy a couple of beaters on eBay, send one of your razors to @Steve56, and start learning to hone. The best way to learn is by honing.

I recently bought a razor from @Steve56 and his JNAT finish is spectacular.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Good work.

Yes, there are better edges than 8k, but if you can not shave comfortably off an 8k edge, a higher grit stone is not going to help you. If you learn to perfect your 8k edge and your 1k bevel set your shaves will improve dramatically. Its not the stones, but the work you did to get to a finish stone.

Yes, a single pencil grit removal is likely not flat and smooth, slurry washed off most of the pencil grid. It usually takes 4-5 new full grid lapping to completely lap a stone. Lap under running water to keep the diamond plate or wet & dry unclogged.

You should be able to completely remove a new pencil grid in less than 10 laps.

If you continue honing your shaves will improve dramatically. A year from now you will wonder how you shaved with the edge you have today. Do get a razor honed buy an experienced honer so that you will have a benchmark to aim at.

 

[georgerc]

Good work.

Yes, there are better edges than 8k, but if you can not shave comfortably off an 8k edge, a higher grit stone is not going to help you. If you learn to perfect your 8k edge and your 1k bevel set your shaves will improve dramatically. Its not the stones, but the work you did to get to a finish stone.

Yes, a single pencil grit removal is likely not flat and smooth, slurry washed off most of the pencil grid. It usually takes 4-5 new full grid lapping to completely lap a stone. Lap under running water to keep the diamond plate or wet & dry unclogged.

You should be able to completely remove a new pencil grid in less than 10 laps.

If you continue honing your shaves will improve dramatically. A year from now you will wonder how you shaved with the edge you have today. Do get a razor honed buy an experienced honer so that you will have a benchmark to aim at.

Thanks again everyone for this great stream of info.

An update here: I bought a Naniwa 12k.

It arrived today, I soaked and lapped it. H Brad Boonshaft was right, it took me about 4-5 full grid lappings to get it flat. Once flat this thing feels like glass!!
I did a few rounds of circles but then went to straight even strokes. Did about 30 laps I believe (would have only done 20 but I was having so much fun)
I stropped the razor 70 back/forth on the suede side and the same on the leather finished side.

Finally I was happy to pick one of my girlfriend's hairs off the ground the try a HHT.
Eureka I heard the satisfying **ping** of the hair easily cutting from the HHT.
I'm pretty cleanshaven from yesterday so I didn't want to test the new edge with a wet shave but I did lightly lift some arm hair.
The blade is a different blade! The hair just melted off my arm.
I can't wait till my wetshave tomorrow!!

A recap:
Ralf Aust 6/8" round point
Norton .4k -> Norton 8k -> Naniwa 12k melting my hair like butter.

cheers!

 

[georgerc]

I'll add one more thing:

I think I learned much more by the goofy, almost disasterous path that I took.

This gave me the opportunity to start with a jacked bevel, set it, and work up to a pretty nice edge.