Please help!

[Kingshave]

Hi guys, I have been enjoying this forum for several years and straight razor shaving for some more. I have had various success with honing, and for the last year no success at all, and Im really close to giving up on my "honing career" and whish to get my razor sharp by own work.

I have Naniwa stones, 1000 grit, 3000, 5000, 8000, 10000 and 12000. I make sure they are all perfectly flattened (use an Atoma diamond), and I have tried all the tecniques possible, burr, up and down, various pressure etc. And nothing works. I examine the bevel with loupe and it looks perpect! Onlyd problem is that the edje just isnt sharp! I really dont know what to do.

I have read all the forum pages on honing and feel I have tried it all. Can anyone give any advice or have any theory on what Im doing wrong? Should it be possible to cut hair easily after the 1000 grit stone? If so Im not even close.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Kingshave]

I can also add that I have mostly japanese high quality razors.

 

[kcb5150]

Your edge is not good because the bevel is not set. Yes the razor should shave hair easily off the 1k.

 

[Goofy_Bee]

Sometimes it's only a small thing. How do you move the blade across the stone? Back and forth on the same side, or alternating?
But yes, the SR should cut arm hairs after bevel setting (1k).

What I do:
Set the bevel on the 1k. What you want here, is to bring the edge in a known geometry where each bevel side meets the other. To achieve that (there are many approches) I move the blade forth and backwards on the same side until there is a palpable burr on the stones declined side of the blade. Now you can be sure that the bevel reaches the apex. Then turn the blade over and repeat on the other side. This will take (depending on the condition) around 20-30 motions (back and forth). So now the bevel(s) meet the apex, but there is also a big burr (edge trailing movements always cause a burr formation). To get rid of the burr you have to move the blade edge leading with alternating side after every pass (so calld laps. One forward movement, turn the blade (over the spine) and backward movement on the other side). After 20 laps you should be able to cut arm hairs. If not, more laps. The pressure is only relevant, if you hone (full) hollow SR. Too much pressure will bend the apex off the stone (remember, we are talking about fractions of micrometers) Around 150 g applied pressure should be enough.
Once your bevel-setting is done (only then), continue with your other stones. But here you'll need only 20 laps alternating side, always edge leading. If you want to, use all of your stones. Necessarily are only the 1k, (maybe) the 5k an the 12k.
I don't like high grit synthetic edges (too rough). I (personally) would use a natural stone as finisher (Thüri, Coti; Jnat) or a pasted strop.

 

[Wid]

Where at you located? Maybe there’s someone in your area that can sit and observe how you hone. Point you in the right direction. Darn near impossible to point out what’s wrong with your honing without seeing it.

I would hazard to guess it’s your bevel, usually is in most cases.

 

[lightfoot]

Here’s a stroke combination that was taught to me by an extremely well respected member here. Even if I had to repeat this routine shown here three or four times (Which I often do) the whole thing would still be done in less than 10 minutes assuming there are other underlying geometry and/ or pressure problems. Obviously you’ll need to do some kind of a verification check at the end of the process.

And while this may not resolve all of your bevel setting problems it is a place to start…

 

[Kingshave]

Thank you kcb and Goofy! Yes, I guess my bevel has not been thoroughly set.

When I set the bevel I slide the razor back and forth on the same side, then do laps. I can see on the slurry that I have removed lots of metal, and despite changing to laps (back and forth on different sides) it still wont get sharp.

Im happy you confirm that I should be able to cut hairs after bevel set correctly, then I dont have to go through all the stones.

Thanks for good advice - Im gonna give this some more tries

 

[Kingshave]

Thanks Wid and Lighfoot! Im located in Norway - dont know of any good honers unfortunately. I will look at the video

 

[Goofy_Bee]

Thanks Wid and Lighfoot! Im located in Norway - dont know of any good honers unfortunately. I will look at the video

I'll be in Denmark on easter-holidays. At least it's half-way Germany<->Norway

 

[Steve56]

@JPO is in Norway I believe but no idea if you are close. My suggestion is to devise/adopt a bevel set test, there are many. Thumb pad, thumbnail, tomato, inspection, etc. Personally I use inspection at the lower grits below 4k, and after 4-5k, I strop 20 linen and 20 leather and do the ha ging hair test. The edge should cut hair via the HHT easily at this point. If it doesn’t, the bevel is not properly set.

 

[captaincaed]

I learned a lot watching Alex Gilmore closely. There’s something very different about seeing vs reading about technique.

He does a bevel set to finish and hanging hair on camera in 8-15 minutes. Soft spoken, to the point, doesn’t faff around or waste time. Less long-winded and flamboyant than some notable razor vloggers.

This one is a pretty nice intro. Goes from an intentionally dulled edge to bevel set to finish.

I would ignore his finishing for the time being. For one, his razor is already set up well (good geometry, probably had a good bevel set so dulling the edge doesn’t set him back too far). For two, his finishing stones are quite a bit better than most on the market (I’ve never been able to replicate his finishing speed with any of my stones). Also don’t try to go as fast. Instead take a close look at his technique for bevel setting.

Here’s what I notice, maybe others can chime in too.

• Edge leading only (keep apex pretty burr-free)
• Strict motion in one direction with one razor orientation to stone (no circles or push/pull)
• Reverse pyramid number of strokes, with same number on each side (keep apex wear even, also helps reduce burr formation)
• I don’t think absolute stroke count is the key, just the fact they’re symmetric.
• Holding heel and toe to keep even contact between razor and stone)

 

[JPO]

Thanks Wid and Lighfoot! Im located in Norway - dont know of any good honers unfortunately. I will look at the video

I am located in Stavanger. I can hone it for free, or help to get you started.

 

[SliceOfLife]

As others mentioned... no bevel.

In person diagnosis/learning how to identify/set a bevel is great. If that meetup can be made to work; strongly suggested.

Other time this might happen is if the razors have lost their hardening through restoration. Basically they'll act similarly to junk razors; even if they started life as good quality razors. Still means they don't really have a bevel; but with the technicality that they could have one (as best as they can hold)... it's just not fine enough to cut much.

But checking for user error is the first path to investigate.

 

[Herrenberg]

Thank you kcb and Goofy! Yes, I guess my bevel has not been thoroughly set.

When I set the bevel I slide the razor back and forth on the same side, then do laps. I can see on the slurry that I have removed lots of metal, and despite changing to laps (back and forth on different sides) it still wont get sharp.

When I was starting out honing, I had a lot of the same results you're talking about here. I'm removing metal, I can see that clearly in the swarf. So why isn't my razor getting sharp?

It was because that metal was almost entirely from the honing strip, not the bevel. Gently torqueing the razor, a slight twist to favor the bevel-stone contact point over the honing strip-stone contact, solved the problem for me.

 

[sd_baker]

What kind of razor do you have? Has it been honed to shave ready ever?

The easiest way to get lots of useful feedback is to post a picture of your work in progress. Better yet a video (unlisted youtube etc).

Have you confirmed you're sharpening at the apex with a permanent marker?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

First learn to hone on one razor. Post photos of your razor that show both sides bevel and spine, to eliminate the razor as an issue.

You have all the stones you need. Yes, the Axe Method will work with synthetic stones. It is a pretty fool-proof method of honing using edge leading strokes only.

You must fully set the bevel, Get the bevels flat, in the correct bevel angle and meeting fully from heel to toe. All 3 objectives must be met to have a fully set bevel.

Tape the spine with one layer of tape to prevent needlessly grinding the spine while learning to hone. If the spine is already worn you may need 2 layers of tape. Replace the tape if you burn through.

Once you have mastered honing, (honed several razors that shave well) then decide if you want to continue to use tape. There is no downside to using tape.

Look straight down on the edge with magnification, if you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are NOT meeting fully.

BTW what magnification are you using?

Below is a foolproof method of knowing when the bevels are fully set.

The first is where the bevels are almost meeting, note shiny reflections.

The second is the same edge with bevels fully meeting, no shiny reflections, the bevel is fully set. The rest is just polishing the bevels to refine the edge, without mucking it up.

NOTE, it is very common to make a shaving edge and roll the edge when learning to strop. A single errant stropping stroke and roll the edge.

But it is not the end of the world, simply joint the edge on your finish stone and reset it in 10-15 laps on the finisher.

ALMOST SET

FULLY SET

 

[captaincaed]

Picture worth 1000 words.
Yeah a $30 usb microscope also helped me be honest with myself. Worthwhile investment.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I hear you, @Kingshave!

Lots of good advice above. Here are some things that have helped me:

1. Use one layer of tape for now. This will help you to confirm that you are removing steel from the edge, not from the spine.
2. Mentally divide the blade into four to five sections and familiarize yourself with the edge by running short x-strokes on the individual sections.
3. Can you feel each mm of the edge making contact with the stone? If not, you are not honing the edge.
4. Gradually increase the length of your strokes.
5. Use enough pressure to remove steel but not enough to bend the edge.
6. Congratulations, you are now honing the razor!
7. Test your edge with a cherry tomato, your forearm hair or your thumbpad. I like the cherry tomato test.
8. Finish each grit with light to minimal pressure to minimize the depth of the scratch marks. This should set you up for success on the next grit or your skin.

 

[Gamma]

I have had various success with honing, and for the last year no success at all,

No edges for a year - how many attempts? How many times have you successfully honed a dull edge to shave ready status?

and Im really close to giving up on my "honing career" and whish to get my razor sharp by own work.

Lose the drama. it doesn't help. Quit or don't quit but the "I'm ready to quit' thing is self defeating. There's like 10 pages of it in another thread. If you wanted to quit, you would have quit. But you're here. Right? So instead of being melodramatic, try saying something positive. Like, "I'm ready to forget all I think I know, and start over!" or something like that.

I have Naniwa stones, 1000 grit, 3000, 5000, 8000, 10000 and 12000. I make sure they are all perfectly flattened (use an Atoma diamond),

Fully describe your flattening process and what your final check for flatness is.

and I have tried all the tecniques possible, burr, up and down, various pressure etc.

No, you have not tried all techniques, because if you did actually do that then you'd be shaving. You might 'think' you have executed the directions, but the results say otherwise.

I examine the bevel with loupe and it looks perpect!

Looking at a bevel never proved an apex. A perfect looking bevel is irrelevant. You want a perfect apex.

Only problem is that the edje just isnt sharp! I really dont know what to do.

Learn to set the bevel.

I have read all the forum pages on honing and feel I have tried it all.

Old saying, the difference between knowledge and wisdom is experience. Honing requires practice, practice infers failure. Reading the words is one thing, internalizing and understanding them is another thing. Proper execution is an even more different thing.

Can anyone give any advice or have any theory on what Im doing wrong?

I'd guess a good amount of what you are doing is wrong

Should it be possible to cut hair easily after the 1000 grit stone? If so Im not even close.

You should be able to manage a shave off your bevel setter.

Pick a razor - one.
Prove your stones are flat with a quality straight edge, not pencil grid lines.
Learn to set the bevel.
Test the bevel by shaving with it. No shave = no bevel.
Go back, repeat. Until you reach that stage, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

There are a few good bevel setting videos out there. Pick one. Learn it. Once you nail the bevel, the rest can fall into place.

To guess, your stones are probably not really flat, and you are not using pressure correctly. Your posts suggest that you're not fully up to speed with what the process is really all about. It's not add water and stir, or paint by numbers. The blade has a non shaving condition and the goal is to return it to shaving condition. Grinding steel and making swarf on the stone does not mean your edge is getting sharp. If you are not focusing pressure correctly, you will not develop an apex.
To set the bevel you need to understand the bevel.
Once you set the bevel, you will probably want to progress through all the stones. But until you learn all there is to know about #1, the 1k, the rest don't really matter.
The bevel is the edge. No bevel = no edge. No 3k is going to fix blown 1k work.

 

[Jayboz]

@Kingshave if you go the honing route, you may consider picking one person’s method and trying it. Info coming in from multiple sources may be counter-productive. It was for me. If you look at other thread, HBradBoonshaft provided what seemed to me, the most logical process and there is a long thread on another forum that goes into great detail. Its a great read and a lot of time was devoted to it.

There is also the option of balsa strops, if youre not already aware of them and are tolerant of the edges they provide. I would imagine not as glamorous/satisfying should you hone from the beginning and do it yourself, but SUPER easy, VERY little time commitment, and keeps blades shaving for a LONG time.

Good Luck with whatever route you go.