Please help!

[TheBeast]

Oh yeah. I too, struggled with Naniwa SStones. Mine were warping a lot. Breaking Also. Its still hard to lap them flat, even after gluing them to thick acrylic. They were not very beginner friendly for me. And also, they were far from flat when I thought they were flat enough. Pencil Grid does not tell the whole story of flatness. A precision straightedge does. I like it better when it's straightedge level flat, others don't. But my honing took off after switching to Shapton Pros and making them straightedge level flat. I Also like the 1.5k as a bevel setter. Oh and one more thing, putting a Stone against a laping plate and rubbing along only makes the stones flat if you have a precision laping solution, such as a very expensive DMT plate. With an Atoma, I have to work with the Stone and use Pressure strategically, while referencing against a straightedge.

Biggest lesson for me was to pay maximum attention to every tiny detail. At first it is a chore, now it's second Nature. And a Lifetime skill.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Don’t overthink “Dead Flat. To hone a razor stones do not need to be dead flat to hone a razor.

And Dead flat is a moving target. After you hone on a perfectly dead flat stone, it is no longer dead flat, you have abraded the flat face with the first lap.

Precision Ground Flat Stones, (400 grit India stones that will mirror polish) are ground perfectly flat with a precision surface grinder with a diamond wheel, they are ground “Dead Flat” or as close to dead flat as possible. Used one time they are no longer dead flat and embedded with bits of steel, but are flat enough to produce a flat mirror finished machined surface. Hand lapping a stone with sandpaper or diamond plate can not come close to that tolerance.

So, while flatness of razor hones is a lofty goal, it is an impossible achievement done by hand. More importantly it does not matter, just look at the surface grinder, how flat is the stone that grinds Precision Ground Flat Stones? It’s not, the stone is round and not necessarily “perfectly” round.

A new stone should be flattened to smooth the stone face and remove any rough pockets, after that, flattish is good enough, the razor will ride on the high spots of the stone. You are not a machine that the razor will pass over the exact same spot on each lap and conform to the diamond plate.

I defy anyone to shave with a razor the was honed on a perfectly flat stone and one that was lapped with a hand held diamond plate and tell one edge from the other.

So, relax, if you can remove a pencil grid in less than 10 laps, it is plenty flat enough. And then there is stone swelling…

 

[Legion]

Don’t overthink “Dead Flat. To hone a razor stones do not need to be dead flat to hone a razor.

And Dead flat is a moving target. After you hone on a perfectly dead flat stone, it is no longer dead flat, you have abraded the flat face with the first lap.

Precision Ground Flat Stones, (400 grit India stones that will mirror polish) are ground perfectly flat with a precision surface grinder with a diamond wheel, they are ground “Dead Flat” or as close to dead flat as possible. Used one time they are no longer dead flat and embedded with bits of steel, but are flat enough to produce a flat mirror finished machined surface. Hand lapping a stone with sandpaper or diamond plate can not come close to that tolerance.

So, while flatness of razor hones is a lofty goal, it is an impossible achievement done by hand. More importantly it does not matter, just look at the surface grinder, how flat is the stone that grinds Precision Ground Flat Stones? It’s not, the stone is round and not necessarily “perfectly” round.

A new stone should be flattened to smooth the stone face and remove any rough pockets, after that, flattish is good enough, the razor will ride on the high spots of the stone. You are not a machine that the razor will pass over the exact same spot on each lap and conform to the diamond plate.

I defy anyone to shave with a razor the was honed on a perfectly flat stone and one that was lapped with a hand held diamond plate and tell one edge from the other.

So, relax, if you can remove a pencil grid in less than 10 laps, it is plenty flat enough. And then there is stone swelling…

Yeah, some of mine are “meh, flat enough” and still work fine.

I have a trans Ark that I know still has a slight low spot in the middle, but it wore me out. Still gives excellent edges, since my imperfect stroke allows for even edge contact on all the flat bits.

 

[natto]

Can anyone give any advice...

I am learning to sharpen razors, like you.

So far I can only guess what's up with your sharpening. Some more Information will get you better advice. Would you mind to show pictures of your razor?

Some of the usual problems can be seen. Knowing whats wrong will tell you what to improve. Learning to sharpen can become much more easy with that information.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I get better results lapping when I finish lapping with minimal pressure using just the weight of the stone - letting gravity apply even pressure. Me trying to control the pressure

 

[psfred]

Slightly convex stones are not a problem if you use x-strokes and pay attention to the edge behavior. Concave stones are more of an issue, as it's easier to fail to properly hone sections of the edge.

Bottom line you need to be able to tell, one way or another, when you have a clean apex on whatever you are using for a bevel setter. A razor with a rough apex will cut the be-jesus out of you and not remove any beard hairs. Properly apexed on a 1k stone will shave you, if not very nicely.

Note that straight razors are VERY hard steel, and will take a lot of laps to restore a damaged (or never honed) edge. My bad habit is too much pressure applied to the spine at the heel, resulting in eternal honing with no improvements on the edge, I have to conciously apply some pressure to the toe and rotate into the stone to abrade the actual bevel.

 

[Steve56]

Marty’s right, don’t overthink flatness for razors. Close enough is good enough.

If you have a perfectly formed plane or chisel edge, perfectly flat and perfectly square, OK, I can see that you need a flatter stone. But for a lot of razors that have banana-shaped spines of various thickness and a smile and/or a frown, absolute hone flatness doesn’t make much sense to me.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Below is a foolproof method of knowing when the bevels are fully set.

The first is where the bevels are almost meeting, note shiny reflections.

The second is the same edge with bevels fully meeting, no shiny reflections, the bevel is fully set. The rest is just polishing the bevels to refine the edge, without mucking it up.

View attachment 1767706

ALMOST SET

View attachment 1767707
FULLY SET

Marty (@H Brad Boonshaft), do you use magnification for this technique? Favorite source of light?

I ask because I have struggled with this technique. I have tried natural light, under a lightbulb, holding the blade at different angles, using my naked eyes (with reading glasses) and using a loupe (which felt myopic). And then under an LED bulb with the heel away from me using a magnifying glass and I think I saw it, but I finished setting the bevel and no more reflection :-(.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yes, I use a Carson MicroBrite, 60-100x, lighted magnifier, $15. I rarely use the 100X.

Just focus on and look at the bevel from the side, resting the scope on the bevel, then roll the razor until you are looking straight down at the edge. The scope should be just off or touching the edge. Use your pinky finger as a guide, slightly lift the scope off the edge and slide it down to examine the whole edge.

If you go out of focus, try slightly lifting one side away from the edge to bring back to focus. The trick is to get the edge in focus, so focus on the bevel first.

It is not a big deal if the scope touches the edge, 3-4 laps will restore the edge if the bevels were meeting fully and you bumped it.

I remove my glasses to look through the magnifier.

 

[Kingshave]

Hi everyone, I promised to get back to this thread in some time. First time I tried a straight razor was approximately 15 years ago. My first was a Hart Steel, it was a great experience, it was shave ready straight out of the box. My second razor was a Thiers Issard - that edge was even sharper! Cut hair like butter. Sine that day I have improved shaving teqnique, lather making process, stropping tecnique etc.

As the HS and TI inevitably started to pull I bought lots of Naniwa stones and read alot on several forums and youtube vids. I was never able to get the edge any near as good as it was. I bought some new vintage razors from a very good dealer that made great edges. Got the great feeling again! But as all razors, in time they get dull and it is really frustrating not to be able to hone them my self. I even tried to send them to a "hone meister" in Norway but got them back almost worse that when I sent them.

I tried diamond 0,25 diamond paste on a strop and got an amazing result! Unfortunately my luck only lasted one shave. After that I never was able to replicate. And so my story has been for these 15 years. I have been lucky a few times but never understood what made the results and I certainly was not able to standardize it. I have tried a lot and put in lots of hours.

For the last weeks I have got great coaching and guidance from H Brad Boonshaft. I whish I had taken contact earlier Today I have a great shave with my filarmonica 13, honed by. myself from setting the bevel to shave ready. Amazing! I have of course far from learned everything, but now I have got better understanding of the basics, what to look for, and practical advice to put knowledge into practice. Its also invaluable to have someone confirm that I am in the correct way. Im looking forward to leaerning more!

For newbies as my self to honing I would really recommend using the great expertise that so many In this forum have. It really speed up the learning process.

Straight razor is really a journey and I love it - especially now also the honing part of the hobby, after the last weeks. Have a great sunday guys.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Great to hear that you found a path that works for you and are making progress. It certainly is a journey. And kudos to @H Brad Boonshaft!