Which Natural Finisher is Hardest to Master?

[duke762]

Having learned this all myself and finishing on Arks, it's been quite a journey until some degree of mastery happened. I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes and if I had only listened to some of the more seasoned veterans here instead of seeing why something works or doesn't, it would have progressed faster.

That being said, I've read that Arks have a pretty steep learning curve. I agree but is it any worse than Jnats or Coticules?

I find the idea of using Jnats daunting just in the terminology alone and would require me to learn new stones, techniques and sort out slurry and everything else.

Quite a few folks have Coticule issues until they learn the peculiarities of their stones.

I'm sure there's some other naturals that take a little voodoo. Which one gave you fits until you cracked it?

 

[GreazyThumbs]

Watching

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[Christian1212]

I have a translucent ark, 3 coticules, and 2 jnats. I find the ark pretty easy to finish on but maybe I am not close to the stones potential. Coticules IMO are either finishers or they are not depending on the stone. If it is a finisher then I would say easy. It might just be the 2 finishing coticules I have are easy to finish with though. The jnats I have I am still practicing to get good edges on them however I still have a ways to go (had someone else get my razor shave ready on the stones).

If I had to rank them I would say
Coticule - ark - jnat
Arks are probably the best finishing wise for the price. Jnats there are more options but will pay extra $ for a guaranteed good stone. Coticules you usually dont have a lot of options, they are expensive (the good ones normally imo), and hard to find one that finishes.

Just my opinion on the subject though

 

[MasterOfPups]

For me, jnats were the easiest. A hard, fine grit stone and 1200 diamond nagura slurry does wonders, and does it pretty easily. Wakasa and Shobudanis are good stones that are more affordable than Nakayamas. Look for one rated lv4 or lv5, with few lines or inclusions on the surface.

And if you go for a coticule, don't overlook the bbw side. I have one that will render a solid hht3 from the blue side that is only slightly improved by the coticule side.
I like my coticules, but they are a lot more finicky than jnats. I mostly use them for mid-range work these days, although I do like to keep a razor with a coticle edge handy for when I am in a hurry, since the edge is more forgiving.

 

[stone and strop]

I don't think any finisher is particularly difficult to figure out.
There are only a few common standard approaches that will figure things out.
How the stone is dressed, type of lubrication (water, oil, other) and slurry if any.
Finisher being the key word. If it IS in fact a finisher it can be dialed in in short order.
The biggest obstacle I see is people trying to get superb results from substandard stones.
Not all stones are finishers, but almost all have a place.
Coticules IMO are the biggest variance in hones being as they all come from the same place/mine - they range from bevel setter to incredible finisher and NOT in the same stone.

 

[HVenture138]

Never used an Ark but I’ve owned 7 jnats, 2 coticules, and 1 Escher.

The Escher is easiest, no doubt about it.

The array of jnats can be bewildering.
On the whole I find them pretty easy to use but both the softest and hardest finishers need a bit of finesse.

My coticule was easily the most difficult to master. It took several frustrated months of putting down and picking back up again to really get the hang of it to the point where I could reproduce fantastic edges.

 

[Pedigree]

I don't think any finisher is particularly difficult to figure out.
There are only a few common standard approaches that will figure things out.
How the stone is dressed, type of lubrication (water, oil, other) and slurry if any.
Finisher being the key word. If it IS in fact a finisher it can be dialed in in short order.
The biggest obstacle I see is people trying to get superb results from substandard stones.
Not all stones are finishers, but almost all have a place.
Coticules IMO are the biggest variance in hones being as they all come from the same place/mine - they range from bevel setter to incredible finisher and NOT in the same stone.

I have a slow-cutting la grise so I decided to ask get a fast cutting coticule to do the bevel-setting on, so I reached out to Ardennes and they sent me a pink la dressante that is the fastest coti I've ever experienced. I decided to try finishing on it as well, and to my surprise, it put on an even better edge then my la grise.

Now, I'm learning my two Jnat's (both Ozuku Asagi's) one of which has put on the best edge I've ever shaved with and the other I haven't honed with yet.

 

[SliceOfLife]

A bad Jnat. You can get a good edge out of a bad Jnat, but it won’t happen consistently or be easy. Bad coticules, same story but less extreme. Interestingly good examples swing the opposite. A GOOD Jnat or coticule behaves like an Escher, but with a slightly different end result.
Arks are easy, but most razor honers need to relearn technique because most of the guys trying to instruct on honing razors give information that is the opposite of how you want to treat an Arkansas.

 

[Xopenex]

Coti's...

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[Chan Eil Whiskers]

A bad Jnat. You can get a good edge out of a bad Jnat, but it won’t happen consistently or be easy. Bad coticules, same story but less extreme. Interestingly good examples swing the opposite. A GOOD Jnat or coticule behaves like an Escher, but with a slightly different end result.
Arks are easy, but most razor honers need to relearn technique because most of the guys trying to instruct on honing razors give information that is the opposite of how you want to treat an Arkansas.

Arks are easy, but most razor honers need to relearn technique because most of the guys trying to instruct on honing razors give information that is the opposite of how you want to treat an Arkansas.

Could you say more (or a lot more) about this?

Thanks and happy shaves,

Jim

 

[duke762]

Arks are easy, but most razor honers need to relearn technique because most of the guys trying to instruct on honing razors give information that is the opposite of how you want to treat an Arkansas.

Slice, Please share your thought's on this. I'm trying to learn everything I can. I think I'm seeing 2 very different schools of thought on Ark usage. I'd really like too see if your thoughts on this dovetail with mine

Do Escher's and Jnat's finish on slurry or some type of dilution like a Coti? That's never been clear to me.

Bad Jnat? With my luck, I"ll most likely end up with one of those if I go down that road.

Coti's...

+1 on that! I use them more as another step to where I want my edge to go. The edge just didn't shave my beard like I wanted. But I'm still trying and learning.....

 

[Steve56]

You can use slurry to finish on a Thuringian/Escher, but most folks don’t. Most folks use some amount of slurry to finish on a jnat, but the amount kind of depends on the specific stone. You can also finish on clear water on some jnats, but whether or not clear water finishing makes a difference also depends on the specific jnat, some it helps noticeably, others not so much.

 

[Bowmaker]

My first coti was the most challenging. I have three of them now and they are all a bit different if I want to get the most out of them. A couple of thuringians, a JNAT, decent results right away. I started razor honing on arks and was already familiar with them.
So the coticules have been the toughest for me so far, worth the effort though.

 

[HVenture138]

You can use slurry to finish on a Thuringian/Escher, but most folks don’t.

Hmmm..... never tried my Escher without slurry. I’ll have to check that out

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

I didn't have much trouble at all learning to use my flat coti, but there are caveats.

While the coti edge was absolutely a better shaving edge than it seemed like it would be, and while I enjoyed its shave, I can get edges I enjoy just as much, edges which are definitely much sharper than my coti edges, with all my finishing Arks and with my Zulu Grey.

It's possible of course that I've not mastered my flat coti. It's also possible I have.

Coti stones vary according to those who have a lot of them.

Having said all that I enjoy using the coti stones.

Towards that end I'm now incorporating a convex coti into my mix of finishing (or near finishing) stones. Can't say I've mastered it. Maybe I have, but I doubt it.

I'm not sure that very many people are experienced enough with all the stones to answer the thread title's question. I know I'm not.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Xopenex]

Hmmm..... never tried my Escher without slurry. I’ll have to check that out

On my Eschers I start with a light slurry for a few laps... then straight water. Works great for me

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[SliceOfLife]

Slice, Please share your thought's on this. I'm trying to learn everything I can. I think I'm seeing 2 very different schools of thought on Ark usage. I'd really like too see if your thoughts on this dovetail with mine

Do Escher's and Jnat's finish on slurry or some type of dilution like a Coti? That's never been clear to me.

Bad Jnat? With my luck, I"ll most likely end up with one of those if I go down that road.

The new school of ark thought (lap the hell out of it and use it to "burnish") fits in well with the methods I've seen people teaching for razor honing. If it works for you, it works for you... but it's a waste of a good stone in my opinion.

Because...
Actually using one for what it is (a very good and effective hone), requires you to learn to sharpen... not "hone razors", actually sharpen. That means using controlled pressure that is adjusted throughout the honing process. This is poison to most "razor" honing methods, but it's how you actually start getting good edges consistently without wasting crazy amounts of time trying to fill a teacup with a colander. This is what arks do and have always done well. They weren't called the fastest (washita) AND finest (hard arks) natural sharpening stones for literally centuries because they were bad at sharpening.

Most people these days say that arks are slow slow slow. They can be... depends on your technique.
On the other hand, I've finished a razor on a surgical black coming off a 1k. It's all about understanding what you're doing, properly maintaining and using the tool efficiently, rather than working to make it as inefficient as possible so you can't do much damage.

That's not to say that a good well-aged and broken in Arkansas isn't an excellent tool for fine finishing a razor... but even those polished up gems have cutting power when maintained and used properly... and I think many razor honers don't appreciate that because it doesn't fit in with the method of honing they were taught.

A Bad JNat or Coti will never give you consistently good results, no matter what technique you want to use on it... you're jumping through hoops to maximize your chances of getting a decent result.


I almost never slurry Eschers/Thuri's... but yes, they can finish with slurry. You don't need to dilute, their particles are sub-micron in size. Jnats can be too (most good quality, soft Jnats I've used are quite similar to Eschers in use). You can dilute if you want, but that'll move the edge away from a slurry edge and towards a water finish edge, and with Jnats that can be a quite different result.

 

[duke762]

Thank you Slash! I've been down both roads with the Arks and have firmly landed in your camp.

"Burnish" I hate that word. I really hate when it's mentioned in the context of sharpening. Some are very entrenched in their beliefs. If I could make both methods work for me, I'd be tickled pink.

I have had success using highly polished Arks on small wood carving knives but not on razors. On the knives, I have to use a lot of pressure but it will yield an edge that doesn't really require stropping.

Best tip for getting your Ark to work? Nail a superior edge on the stone you use before it. Let it impart it's
smooth, bloodless, goodness to it.

Bloodless is very important to me! I tend to cut myself every time I try to use something else to finish. Maybe technique or in experience.... I really need to send a razor or 2 out to be honed on different hones just for curiosity.

I really want to try an Escher some day. Jnat's sound really cool but I'd need to learn terminology etc. Both can get spendy.

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

The new school of ark thought (lap the hell out of it and use it to "burnish") fits in well with the methods I've seen people teaching for razor honing. If it works for you, it works for you... but it's a waste of a good stone in my opinion.

Because...
Actually using one for what it is (a very good and effective hone), requires you to learn to sharpen... not "hone razors", actually sharpen. That means using controlled pressure that is adjusted throughout the honing process. This is poison to most "razor" honing methods, but it's how you actually start getting good edges consistently without wasting crazy amounts of time trying to fill a teacup with a colander. This is what arks do and have always done well. They weren't called the fastest (washita) AND finest (hard arks) natural sharpening stones for literally centuries because they were bad at sharpening.

Most people these days say that arks are slow slow slow. They can be... depends on your technique.
On the other hand, I've finished a razor on a surgical black coming off a 1k. It's all about understanding what you're doing, properly maintaining and using the tool efficiently, rather than working to make it as inefficient as possible so you can't do much damage.

That's not to say that a good well-aged and broken in Arkansas isn't an excellent tool for fine finishing a razor... but even those polished up gems have cutting power when maintained and used properly... and I think many razor honers don't appreciate that because it doesn't fit in with the method of honing they were taught.

A Bad JNat or Coti will never give you consistently good results, no matter what technique you want to use on it... you're jumping through hoops to maximize your chances of getting a decent result.


I almost never slurry Eschers/Thuri's... but yes, they can finish with slurry. You don't need to dilute, their particles are sub-micron in size. Jnats can be too (most good quality, soft Jnats I've used are quite similar to Eschers in use). You can dilute if you want, but that'll move the edge away from a slurry edge and towards a water finish edge, and with Jnats that can be a quite different result.

I'd like to hear more about how you use the Ark - like maybe a good bit more depth on going from a 1K to finish using just the surgical black - but I already know I agree with you in general.

What I think I know, too, is your understanding of this and your experience and your technique are beyond mine, so anything you have to say about it will be appreciated as was your post.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[Bowmaker]

I think burnishing was born out of a misconception about what was happening and why when dressing new Arks or opening them back up. It was just a way of knocking down any rogue high spots or loose grit, kind of a breaking in.
But if folks are getting results doing it's all good.