After a few weeks with the taller 820 and 830, I've used my 1460 during the weekend. I love this brush! I am participating in Tabactober, but I switched to the stick, due to being on a trip. Rubbing it just on my chin area, the brush rewarded me with some excellent lather which was enough for my standard 2.5 passes. This week I will pull out the 610 and 620 for further comparisons and elimination.
The Summer of Semogue
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I have the 620 and 1250, both very good brushes. I'd be interested to hear your comparison of the 610 and 620. The 1470 is also on my radar.
I think we should all compare notes
I will come back with newer findings, but here are my thoughts based on my experience with these brushes so far. First of all, my copies are the older Excelsior ones. I don't know if there are any changes. The 610 and 620 have more than 50 uses and the 1460 and 820 are at about 30 shaves so far. I consider the first 3 well broken in, while the 820 was one of those slow-to-break-in Semogues but it is almost there.
I feel that the 610 and 1460 are closer to the 820 than the 620. They share the same strong bristles with soft tips that offer good scrub once broken in, excellent flow through and similar density with their taller "brother". There's a bit less bloom (but they do bloom in the typical Semogue manner) and more backbone due to the shorter loft. Lather capacity for me is irrelevant, but it never bothered me, so I guess it suffices for 3 passes.
The 620 in comparison started stiffer and a lot scrubbier (or borderline scritchy) but mellowed down to what the 830 should have been for me. A bit less backbone than the 610 due to lower density, mainly, but the bristles seems less stong/stiff, too. The tips are super soft and almost gel-like, while there are some "pricklier" bristles in there that give it a lovely scrub. The flow-through is excellent. My copy bloomed more than both the 610 and 1460.
The reason I want to revisit those is to confirm this tentative conclusion as I've gained quite a bit of experience with the 820 lately. Sorry for the long post, I hope all this make some sense...
2000 is my favorite along with the Cerda LE
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- #125
These comments match my experiences, which are also with Excelsior versions (the 1460, 610, and 1470 share the same knot, which is theoretically the same hair as the 820/1250). In particular I like your point about the 620 being what the 830 should have been.I think we should all compare notes
I feel that the 610 and 1460 are closer to the 820 than the 620. They share the same strong bristles with soft tips that offer good scrub once broken in, excellent flow through and similar density with their taller "brother". There's a bit less bloom (but they do bloom in the typical Semogue manner) and more backbone due to the shorter loft. Lather capacity for me is irrelevant, but it never bothered me, so I guess it suffices for 3 passes.
The 620 in comparison started stiffer and a lot scrubbier (or borderline scritchy) but mellowed down to what the 830 should have been for me. A bit less backbone than the 610 due to lower density, mainly, but the bristles seems less stong/stiff, too. The tips are super soft and almost gel-like, while there are some "pricklier" bristles in there that give it a lovely scrub. The flow-through is excellent. My copy bloomed more than both the 610 and 1460.
The reason I want to revisit those is to confirm this tentative conclusion as I've gained quite a bit of experience with the 820 lately. Sorry for the long post, I hope all this make some sense...
Question: I just got a Semogue 620 and 1305 in the mail. Tomorrow I want to try face lathering (I mostly bowl lather) and would like some advice on which of these brushes would be the preferred selection for the job.
Either one, really. The 620 is pretty much a dedicated face lathering brush. The 1305 is versatile enough to do both face lathering and bowl lathering. You will want to soak the bristles for several hours, and wash them out with a mild detergent solution like Dawn.
Semogue brushes take several lathering sessions to break-in (like 15 - 20+). As the bristles are soaked and then dry out, they will split. Let each brush dry out completely for 24 hours or so. Each brush will become softer and lather much better. Don't be discouraged by the 620. It is a pretty stiff brush from the factory, but it will soften as it is used.
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Just wanted to drop a note about the 1470. I used it today, and I can't remember enjoying face lathering more than this. Just a really nice little scrubby knot. I shaved 2 passes with abundant lather, lathered up a third pass because it's how I like to finish a shave, squeezed a fourth pass from the base of the knot for my back-of-the-neck shave, and probably could've gone for another shaving pass if I'd wanted.
If I were starting over as a wetshaver, I'd buy 3 Excelsior 610s, 3 Excelsior 820s, and a couple of dozen Speick sticks. I might buy something else soapwise occasionally and 3017 it just to see and to maintain variety, but there's nothing else I'd ever need nor be left wanting for.
If I were starting over as a wetshaver, I'd buy 3 Excelsior 610s, 3 Excelsior 820s, and a couple of dozen Speick sticks. I might buy something else soapwise occasionally and 3017 it just to see and to maintain variety, but there's nothing else I'd ever need nor be left wanting for.
I am still undecided if I prefer the 820 to the similar mid-sized (24mm/54mm) Omegas, but I agree with the conclusion. Speick is a great soap. Do you use it as a stick or grated it?
I got two more shaves with the brushes; yesterday it was the 620 and today the 610. The rest of the setup was constant. My conclusion remains the same. If you like your 1250, but wished it was a bit more compact and have a bit more backbone and scrub, then the 610/1460/1470 will fill that need. If you just like variety, then the 620 is a great complement to the 820.
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- #131
Yeah, I do love the Omegas with that 24mm knot. I would probably get a couple of those, too. And yeah, the variety of having a 620 in the mix is nice.
As for Speick, I generally grate it. I like lathering from a puck. That said, I have had good luck using it as a stick when traveling. Palmolive is my other favorite stick, and I have flirted with the idea of selling/PIFing/3017ing the other stuff I have and then sticking to those two.
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- #132
620 today. It really has softened considerably, but it still has ample backbone. Such a great lathering instrument. I have decided I'll be keeping it, as it is distinct from the 1470/610 with a more plush feel.
The Semogue experiment has nudged me to try some smaller Omega boars, too. I really like the feel of these short and scrubby knots.
The Semogue experiment has nudged me to try some smaller Omega boars, too. I really like the feel of these short and scrubby knots.
I'd be fascinated how the smaller Omega boar brushes compare to the 50mm loft SMogs.
Great thread and a fine explanation with Sotiris about brush flow through as well, which I find to be one of the most important things about using a brush, in addition to not eating lather. I've got a bleached Zenith boar, which aside from poor flow through seems to eat lather be it new or now that it has broken in (I should PIF this brush at some point), but an unbleached Zenith boar which has excellent flow through, easily the most efficient boar brush I own.
Btw, after reading through this thread I'm considering adding a 1470 or 1250 to my next order, I also really like the plain utilitarian aesthetics of both those brushes as well.
I know you are very impressed with both of those brushes. I presume Semogues act differently to Omegas and the larger Smogs seem to bloom a lot more than their Omega counterparts, I myself seem to prefer boar brushes that keep the shape of their knots a little more, so I think the roads seem to point down the way of the 1470.
I have an Omega 10018. It's only one specimen, but FWIW, here is my comparison.
A quick conclusion is that, if you can stand the stiffness of the knot, it is a lather monster. It is considerably less dense than the smaller Semogues, but it has more backbone and scrub, while the tips are soft enough. It has also bloomed less, much like the typical "broom-type" of Omega's boar knots. In terms of characteristics, I find the smaller Semogues to be more comparable to medium-sized Omegas. I attribute that to the way Semogue creates the knots, which are set to promote more bloom.
BTW, your comment about the Zeniths does not help... I don't need another brush, I don't need another brush, I don't need another brush...
Edit: Added a couple of comparison photos. All brushes are dry. Left to right: Omega 10065, Semogue 1460, Omega 10018
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I have an Omega 10018. It's only one specimen, but FWIW, here is my comparison.
A quick conclusion is that, if you can stand the stiffness of the knot, it is a lather monster. It is considerably less dense than the smaller Semogues, but it has more backbone and scrub, while the tips are soft enough. It has also bloomed less, much like the typical "broom-type" of Omega's boar knots. In terms of characteristics, I find the smaller Semogues to be more comparable to medium-sized Omegas. I attribute that to the way Semogue creates the knots, which are set to promote more bloom.
BTW, your comment about the Zeniths does not help... I don't need another brush, I don't need another brush, I don't need another brush...
Ha ha about that, for needing any more brushes. If it's of any consolation, the unbleached Zenith Euro X (23mm/56mm) is a great brush, it has the thickest bristles of any boar brush I have ever owned (far thicker than my Omegas), it's really scrubby, has excellent flow through, but for whatever reason I've never really taken to it as much as Omega 11819 (24mm/55mm) which is softer, a little floppy, not as efficient for soap. Even though the Zenith might be a better performer, the Omega is more enjoyable to use.
I have a similar sized Omega, the 10075 (23mm/48mm) which feels very stiff, and it's taken me a while to appreciate and your description of the smaller Semogues make a lot of sense in context to my Omega and the mid sized Omega boars I enjoy using so greatly, it sounds like a smaller Semogue should be to my liking.
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- #136
The 1800 and 1250 both have some kinship with the 24/55 Omegas, and the 1250 was the first Semogue I found that I clicked with, probably because I was coming from using the Omega 10005, 11137, and 10066 as my only brushes for a couple of years when I first tried the 1250. The 1470 is not dramatically different to the 1250, but is definitely its own thing, scrubby and efficient given the combo of a small knot and good flow-through.
FWIW, I have my first Zenith incoming, the unbleached 506, ordered from YourShaving a couple of weeks ago. It's larger than the boars I've been using, but not as big as an Omega Pro, so I'm very interested to see how I get on with it. Your comments about unbleached Zeniths are encouraging.
FWIW, I have my first Zenith incoming, the unbleached 506, ordered from YourShaving a couple of weeks ago. It's larger than the boars I've been using, but not as big as an Omega Pro, so I'm very interested to see how I get on with it. Your comments about unbleached Zeniths are encouraging.
Thanks for the info.
I hope you enjoy your unbleached Zenith. From what I have read, your one is a very scrubby beast and from my experience with mine the unbleached Zenith bristles take far longer to break in than their Omega counterparts.
It's a shame the unbleached Zeniths seem to have few distributors as they are excellent brushes.
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- #138
The Zenith has arrived; I test lathered it yesterday. It feels dense and did not bloom much on its initial lather, and I must say its hairs do seem very sturdy. It is not a broom like the Omega nor does it sprawl like a Semogue. Instead it has a slight dome to the loft and seems to have hairs directed toward the center of the knot, although it may change with more lathering. It certainly created a good bit of lather yesterday, though how well it releases during a shave remains to be seen. It has enough funk - different to Omega funk, but very real - that I will lather it at least 2-3 more times before using it in a shave.
I've had/have 2 Zeniths with a knot like yours. The only one that doesn't behave that way is the unbleached Zenith in the cheap plastic handle. That one feels more like an Omega/Semogue hybrid.
That seems to be a fine description of a Zenith, with the bristles directed towards the centre of the knot. I find even though mine has a slightly taller loft than the Omega 10066 style knot (24mm/55mm), with the Zenith 23mm/56mm, it keeps it's shape more during the shave and I imagine your brush with a lower loft and wider base will do so even more.
Here's a picture of my unbleached Zenith, I think with 40-50 shaves with it, so it's fairly well broken in but not fully broken in yet.
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