Technique on harder hones

[Stygo]

I'm starting to figure working with some of the softer synthetic stones (Shapton Pro, Naniwa SS). Learned that consistent (light) pressure is key. It has helped me to visualize the razor as a spring with the bevel at tip. Keep a straight bevel by using the same pressure.

I had started with Shapton Glass stones, and found them more difficult - especially at higher grits. I also noticed that they are much harder than the ones I'm having more success with. I want to go back and try these out and eventually harder natural stones like an ark, but:

Do you hone differently on harder hones? If so, how? Or is it all the same and harder hones are simply less tolerant of bad techniques?

 

[JPO]

I had started with Shapton Glass stones, and found them more difficult - especially at higher grits

They are just blazingly fast at every grit level. The glass stones also vary from grit to grit, and different types in the gs range.

 

[Herrenberg]

I'm starting to figure working with some of the softer synthetic stones (Shapton Pro, Naniwa SS). Learned that consistent (light) pressure is key. It has helped me to visualize the razor as a spring with the bevel at tip. Keep a straight bevel by using the same pressure.

I had started with Shapton Glass stones, and found them more difficult - especially at higher grits. I also noticed that they are much harder than the ones I'm having more success with. I want to go back and try these out and eventually harder natural stones like an ark, but:

Do you hone differently on harder hones? If so, how? Or is it all the same and harder hones are simply less tolerant of bad techniques?

I use less pressure, yes, but I thought you were going to ask about harder JNats, which did take me a while to get right. The Shapton Glass stone are really easy, even at high grit.

So what is going on? It could be technique, I suppose. Would you describe the difficulties you're running into? It's hard to evaluate without knowing that.

The most crucial thing, though, took me a long time to figure out. Turns out that difficulties on harder, higher-grit stones point to a bevel that has not been properly set. Once I really got my bevel set skills locked in, to the point that I shaved off of a Shapton Glass 1000, to prove to myself that I really did, at long last, know how to do a good bevel set, my difficulties on the super-hard JNats vanished.

Hard, high-grit stones are really intolerant of irregularities. Chattering, feeling "wrong" on the stone, bouncing and chipping, uneven scratch patterns, it all went away when I approached the stones with a truly set bevel.

 

[Christian1212]

What works best for me is just using the weight of the razor for everything after bevel set. Usually I have success with all the stones I try with this method. When I do use pressure it is doing circles, and still not much pressure but enough to keep the razor flat on the stone.

I think some people slowly lighten the pressure with each stone. I hate thinking about it though and this is the easy way for me. Make sure your stones are flat and synthetic stones should be easy enough as long as the groundwork is good.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“I had started with Shapton Glass stones,and found them more difficult - especially at higher grits. I also noticed that they are much harder than the ones I'm having more success with. I want to go back and try these out and eventually harder natural stones like an ark, but”

I have not noted much difficulty with Shapton’s, but for razors there are better options. I do use the 500 and 16 a lot for tools and knives with no issues.

Each stone has it’s quirks and you must learn how to get the best performance from each stone.

Pressure is a difficult thing to describe accurately, your lite pressure could be heavy to someone else. And things like stone prep, slurry, technique and how much water on the stone, spray vs squirt bottle can affect performance.

What issues are you experiencing?

 

[Stygo]

I saw worse results with a Shapton 16k glass than a Naniwa 12k, but this was also earlier in my learning. previously I saw worse results with a 16k GS vs an 8k Shapton pro. I am getting good results now with the 12k so am thinking about trying the 16k again.

Before hitting that up again I was wondering if there was something different to consider.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

A common new honer issue is they polish the bevel on a high grit stone, see a lot of deep stria, and blame the high grit stone for scratching the bevel.

What happened is the high grit stone polished away all the lite stria and revealed the deep bevel setting stria that was never completely removed by the transition stone. The transition stone is the stone after the bevel setting stone that grinds the bevels flat and meeting.

Once the bevels are meeting fully, you transition from grinding, to polishing and that stone polishes away all the deep stria, the rest of the stones in the progression are a series of polishing stones, each polishing off the previous stone’s stria. This makes a straight edge.

The 16k is an aggressive stone, if you do too many laps the edge can get thin. If that happens, Joint off the edge and re-set it in 10 laps or so. After the 16k your bevels should be mirror and the edge laser straight. If not look at your progression.

Look at each stone’s finish and ensure that you polish off all the bevel setting stria with the transition stone. For new honers, it is usually not the stone.

Post a photo of the bevel and edge for better advise.

 

[Mitzie]

Edge leading strokes can be beneficial on harder stones IMO

 

[Empire straights]

What works best for me is just using the weight of the razor for everything after bevel set. Usually I have success with all the stones I try with this method. When I do use pressure it is doing circles, and still not much pressure but enough to keep the razor flat on the stone.

I think some people slowly lighten the pressure with each stone. I hate thinking about it though and this is the easy way for me. Make sure your stones are flat and synthetic stones should be easy enough as long as the groundwork is good.

Same. I don't use much pressure on bevel set anymore either, but a little. Weight of the razor works fine for me through all mid and finishing.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Use the amount of pressure that the razor/bevel needs, if you are maintaining a handful of razors, once the razor has been fully bevel set, there is no need for a lot of pressure to re-set a bevel, unless making edge repairs.

So, yes light pressure will work.

But if you are a new honer, learning to hone an eBay beater, you are going to need some pressure to get the bevel fully set. Failure to fully set a bevel is the source of 95-98% or new honers issues.

Almost 100% of new honers I have taught in person, did not use enough pressure to fully set a bevel. They say all advice they repeatedly read and saw online quoted “weight of the blade honing”.

You cannot recipe hone razors and hone all razors with just a single technique. You hone a razor as it needs to be honed, you must grind the bevels flat, to the correct bevel angle and get the bevels meeting… Whatever that takes.

 

[rbscebu]

^^^ So very true.

 

[Gamma]

I don't find Glass Stones to be harder than Pros... I would say the 1.5k Pro is harder than the GS 1000 and 2000.
Both are harder than Super Stones.
Shouldn't ever need to use 'more pressure' past a certain point... use a coarser stone instead.
Using too much pressure will deflect the blade.
Softer stones will dish while deflecting the blade, also not good.

It's not about harder vs softer, more forgiving or less forgiving, etc.

What it is - is about using 'correct' technique. It's task dependent.

If I have to set a bevel on a 200 yr old wedge that was stored in a damp sock in grannies Floridian attic, bet that I will be leaning on it a good bit while using a hard stone - until I cut through the Swiss cheese.
After that, things change to suit the conditions.
As refinement progresses, the need for pressure (force actually) is reduced. Regardless of the stone in use. If I was honing on a SS 8k along side a Pro 8k, and a GS 8k - I'd be doing pretty much the same thing on all 3.

 

[Stygo]

Thank you all for the advice, this has helped me figure it out. I've successfully repeated this a few times on a couple of different razors now, including with the glass stones. Wanted to mention a few things that helped me with the process - these aren't different than the advice already given, but it was helpful for me to emphasize these points:

• The blade is like a spring, if you put enough pressure it will create a different bevel angle. What I learned here is that consistency of pressure (across the blade + over time) beyond a certain point is really important
• Patience in setting the bevel. I found myself a couple of times at higher grits where part of the blade just wan't getting where I wanted it to be. I ended up backing up all the way to 1.5k and then working my way up again. My earlier inclination was to use more pressure at higher grits to "get it done". Doing this or just going for a really long time didn't seem to address the issue - not sure if this was because of the "spring" part above on higher pressure or if the stones are just too slow at removing metal beyond a certain point. Backing up to lower grits was much more effective (and faster).
• Light pressure at later stages and paying close attention to what is happening on the stone (pushing water or not). I became more sensitive to bumping against the stabilizer or riding up on shoulder and avoiding that. Similarly I noticed more if a piece of larger grit (or something else) got on the stone and was "dragging around", would be more careful on cleaning off blade + rinsing stone. Keep working it until all parts of the edge are where you want them to be. Sometimes need to spend more time at heel or toe.
• If lightly dragging the edge against a stone + linen stropping, do this on a softer/higher grit stone to minimize chances of setting yourself back too much.

Still working through and learning, but internalizing those bits of advice helped me the most.

 

[rbscebu]

@Stygo, very pertinent observations. I wish I had been told all that before I started SR honing.

 

[Frank Shaves]

I saw worse results with a Shapton 16k glass than a Naniwa 12k, but this was also earlier in my learning. previously I saw worse results with a 16k GS vs an 8k Shapton pro. I am getting good results now with the 12k so am thinking about trying the 16k again.

Before hitting that up again I was wondering if there was something different to consider.

Yes, the Naniwa 12k is a very good synthetic finisher. I have read others sharing the same experience.