Synthetic Finishing Stones Optimized For Razors???

[lightfoot]

It might be helpful to define the term that many have used in describing high and synthetic edges, and that term is “harsh”.

I suspect that what most people are trying to say when they use that term is an edge that doesn’t readily distinguish between skin and whiskers. So naturally this can lead to a slight increase in the risk of small cuts and/or over exfoliation.
Natural stones do seem to offer an advantage in this regard.

Now in terms of trying to create a more forgiving high grit synthetic edge I think there are a few things that play. Someone had mentioned avoiding large grit jumps especially earlier on in the progression and this I would be inclined to agree with. There seems to be a difference between the edge quality when jumping from let’s say a 5000 grit stone to a 10,000 grit stone compared to putting in 8000 and between the 5K and the 10K. It’s a subtle difference but it’s noticeable for sure.

 

[kcb5150]

I just think there's a certain aggression to the way the abrasives in those synths are working the apex/steel in general. You stay on them too long which is not long at all really and you will get a foil. It's way way harder to do that on any natural. Really thinking about it, the one natural that can get vicious like an overcooked synth edge can be is the special stone only for good razors. The naming of that rock had to be some passing the buck for when you missed the window on it and it made pink lather.

 

[kcb5150]

I still think a lot of the bad shaving experiences come down to inadequate bevel sets or grossly inadequate work in the low midrange with all stones not just the synths. I'm sure a well executed edge off the gok or the 30k would be like heaven vs a natural edge finished on the same razor where the person doing it was really lax about cleaning up the groundwork. I guess I am saying good technique and good habits will shine through no matter what you use if the equipment is fit for task..

 

[lightfoot]

Another thing that this thread has brought to mind is the topic of silica versus aluminum oxide. I wonder how much research and development whetstone manufacturers have put into looking at silica as an abrasive option. The overwhelming majority of synthetic stones use aluminum oxide is their primary abrasive which is well understood here on the forum and elsewhere.

I wonder what the challenges are in reference to creating silica-based synthetic stones…

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Now in terms of trying to create a more forgiving high grit synthetic edge I think there are a few things that play. Someone had mentioned avoiding large grit jumps especially earlier on in the progression and this I would be inclined to agree with. There seems to be a difference between the edge quality when jumping from let’s say a 5000 grit stone to a 10,000 grit stone compared to putting in 8000 and between the 5K and the 10K. It’s a subtle difference but it’s noticeable for sure.”

A lot depends on your skin and beard.

If that was true, all those guys who honed razors for hundreds of years on a coarse and a fine stone were doing it wrong… These high grit synthetic finishers have only been around a few years. 8k was the gold standard for a long time.

If you joint the edge, it is a new edge.

My SG20 sees little use. It can add a bit to an edge, but with only less than 5 laps, too many and you are jointing the edge.

These hard, high grit synthetics do make the jump, more like a slide, to a Natural finish a snap, on Jnats a 1 or 2 nagura finish, or the polished side of a hard Ark.

 

[Gamma]

High grit synthetic abrasives have been around for a long time, and they were in use for honing razors in, at least, the 1700s. I think Geo. Washington's honing kit has several pasted strop-like things in it, for example.
I had a shaving kit from the 1890s, dated by the barber's license inside, there was one synth stone and many pastes. Sub micron polishing of razor edges is not a 'recent' thing at all.

Coticles, Eschers, Jnats, etc - all were around Looooooong before some self proclaimed poobah tried to pretend an 8k synth was any sort of a standard. Coarse to fine was, in the old days, mitigated by pressure control, slurries and probably surface condition and adjusting friction coefficient with thicker/thinner lubes.

The N8k was 'the stone' when the newsgroups started because those guys didn't realize the options that actually existed. Crox was their salvation though, even though they pretended the 8k was 'all you needed'.
Then there was the 'State Run Press" situation that lived on another forum but that's another story.

Expecting the abrasive in an 8k to remove the striations left by the 1k assumes too much and it is typically not going to reveal as refined an edge as one would see if a coarser stone was inserted in the process.

I'll spare everyone the PSD specifications, but a simple review of an accurate grit chart will shed light on the beginning of the subject. What is usually overlooked is the the max particle size in a 1k. D50 is what most use for grit assignments but it's not the only story in the mix.

Synths with silica like the man-made Arks didn't fly. Synth Coti's wern't received well.
Wasn't there a man-made Escher type of thing too? Probably a flop.

I would think creating silica abrasive in a lab for the purpose of making a whetstone would be somewhat cost prohibitive and without a huge market for the product, there probably wouldn't be enough interest in it when they can do what they do with Alundum.

 

[Gamma]

I had a Gok 20, it was ok but not worth the $$ to me and did not wow me enough to keep it.
Mine was not hard though, the cleaning stone cut into it easily. I have read posts where people say the Gok 20 is hard and I have found none of the Gokumyo stones to be 'hard' at all.
So I don't know what to think there. My interpretation of those stones - 10-15-20k - is that they remind me of Naniwa Superstones or the Falcon/Fuji types.

I do not enjoy the feedback from any of them. I sold my Gok 20, returned the borrowed 10/15k, and I sold my Fuji/Falcon and 12k Super Stone also.
Also sold my 16k and 30k Glass - got the Glass Stone 7 versions instead. Sold the GS7 .85 µm (16k-ish) and will move the .44µm GS7 out too. They were great to play with but not needed or wanted either actually.

All of the above worked though. Most of my 'not liking' one or another has to do with feel and cost.

The Shapton 16k and 30k Glass Stones and the 30k Purple all work too.
Feedback on the Glass Stones is stone-like. The Suherio or Naniwas I mentioned above all feel fake to me. Feedback on the 30k Pro purple is stone like. If I needed a 30k stone, I'd probably spring for it. I just have no need for one. In my opinion, I think it might be considered to be 'easier' to hone on than the Glass Stone 30k. I am sure, in a technical sense, that the Glass 30k, GS7 .44µm, and the Gok 20 are all 'more advanced'.

Edges I finish on natural stones shave better for me, and are more fun to create.

 

[JPO]

It might be helpful to define the term that many have used in describing high and synthetic edges, and that term is “harsh”.

I suspect that what most people are trying to say when they use that term is an edge that doesn’t readily distinguish between skin and whiskers. So naturally this can lead to a slight increase in the risk of small cuts and/or over exfoliation.
Natural stones do seem to offer an advantage in this regard.

Now in terms of trying to create a more forgiving high grit synthetic edge I think there are a few things that play. Someone had mentioned avoiding large grit jumps especially earlier on in the progression and this I would be inclined to agree with. There seems to be a difference between the edge quality when jumping from let’s say a 5000 grit stone to a 10,000 grit stone compared to putting in 8000 and between the 5K and the 10K. It’s a subtle difference but it’s noticeable for sure.

I also think that the steel type and heath threat is really important. Some steel can be really forging when you hone it. In my opinion, part of the reason why Fillarmonica razor are so highly regarded is because they are so easy and forging to hone.
The harder and more brittle steels with coarser grain structures can also give a smooth and sharp shave. However, they are much more unforgiving with regards to how they are honed. They will in most cases not tolerate larger grit jumps as well as softer steels or steel with a finer grain structure.
My first two razors was from Hart Steel. They are hard, brittle and a challenge to hone well.
The only way i was able to get these razors to a level i was comfortable with was to use smaller grit jumps, and spend more time on each step. I did not change my finishing routine. The problem was in the ground work.

For optimum results it is not enough to just remove the visible scratches as you progress from one grit to the next. As the steel undergoes plastic deformation it also gets more brittle. This brittle material extends past the visible scratch. So, at each step you need to remove more then just the previous scratch to get to "virgin" steel.
Smaller grit jumps creates allot of grit overlap, and you might actually just be removing a little extra material as you use more steps. I don't know. Trial and error.

A well broken in diamond plate can give a really consistent and nice scratch pattern. However, even if you are able to remove something like a 1200 dmt scratch mark, you might be getting issues during the finishing stage because of the sub-surface brittle material created from the diamond particle. So, the time "saved" by using a diamond plate can easily be lost later, because you need to remove more material cased by the deep striations from the diamond.

I would assume this also plays a role during the finishing stages. The underlying issues might not be the finisher at all, but how the steel is set up for the finisher to work well. Blaming the the finisher, and chasing finishers might not work if all you really needed was a better setup leading up to the finish.

There are probably allot of things that could explain what is going on here, so this might just be one variable.

 

[lightfoot]

Good post @JPO.

I actually did a shave last night with an edge finished on the 10,000 super stone. It shaved extremely well but as stated before it’s an indiscriminate edge meaning anything in its way is going to get cut. One thing that helped was using a little pre-shave oil for some extra glide. Definitely Feather-close and no shave splash burn…

That being said I’m not under any illusions that everyone might be or should be satisfied with this kind of edge. I’ve had really good results with taking an edge exactly like this and simply doing a few passes on a Thuringian stone with water only. Now suddenly you have an edge that’s a little more discriminate between skin and whiskers.

The trial and error that I am currently involved in my self is trying to find a way to create a synthetic edge that’s also a ‘smart’ edge. Not sure if this is realistic though…

Amazing responses and posts from everyone in this thread so far!

 

[JPO]

Good post @JPO.

I actually did a shave last night with an edge finished on the 10,000 super stone. It shaved extremely well but as stated before it’s an indiscriminate edge meaning anything in its way is going to get cut. One thing that helped was using a little pre-shave oil for some extra glide. Definitely Feather-close and no shave splash burn…

That being said I’m not under any illusions that everyone might be or should be satisfied with this kind of edge. I’ve had really good results with taking an edge exactly like this and simply doing a few passes on a Thuringian stone with water only. Now suddenly you have an edge that’s a little more discriminate between skin and whiskers.

The trial and error that I am currently involved in my self is trying to find a way to create a synthetic edge that’s also a ‘smart’ edge. Not sure if this is realistic though…

Amazing responses and posts from everyone in this thread so far!

I only have two slates, so my experience is quite limited. I have been using them just as you describe, either after an 8k or a 12 stone with good results.
I have also used them to give a coticule edge a slight bump. The two i have feels quite similar, and give quite similar results.
For anyone who wants to slightly improve their 10-12k edge, and don't want to spend a fortune on natural stones or higher grit synthetic stones, a quality slate is a really nice option. A slow stone like this with a narrow range can really be useful.

Now you need to post another video

 

[Steve56]

I just got a shapton pro 5k as my new drop back to move forward/post bevel set clean up option. Was looking at a lot of 3k for a couple of months with general availability stifling me on pulling the trigger on a few things but then that turned up for a price I couldn't say no to. I have been very impressed so far with the workflow of it. Got it new in a package deal with the pro 2k but I haven't opened the 2. It might come in use as a bevel setter for full hollows but I don't use many of those. For a knife, it feels like that would be a no man's land grit where you would either want more tooth or more refinement. Need to have a think about that one, but the 5 is a very impressive stone feedback aside.

Another fan of the 5k Pro here, I used it for years as Keith B is doing. I tend to use the 4k Glass now just because it’s faster, but the 5k Pro is a very nice stone. It makes a good kitchen knife finisher too.

 

[kcb5150]

The feedback is the only bizarre thing about it. IDK if rubbery is a good word because it isn't a soft stone at all and it may give the wrong idea but the draw is definitely not the same type of resistance as a more traditionally made synth.

 

[Steve56]

The same ‘rubbery’ feeling has been noted with the 8k Pro too.

 

[papi]

Is there anyone who have tried both these stone and can compare them. Have you tried both?
I have not. However, I do think the shapton pro 30k might be less sensitive to the condition the surface.
I lap it sparingly with a dmt 600 before every use without any issues.
Is the Gokumyo 20K as forgiving if used this way?

I do think they are little too expensive for what they add to the edge compared to cheaper alternatives, and natural stones.
A good 10 to 12k, followed by a good compound/emulsion will get you quite close too. I have tried a few different types, but finding one with a good particle distribution seems to be difficult. A good alternative to cbn and diamonds would also be nice.

I was about ready to throw in the towel because I had been reading about good finisher stones and their cost, along with diamond plates and everything. I can not buy too much.
Your comment made me a bit more confident.
I am using a 12k Shapton Pro and a bare leather strop. What have you found that is so far the best compound/emulsion? what did you mean by: A good alternative to cbn and diamonds would also be nice.? Thanks if you can let me know.

 

[lightfoot]

I was about ready to throw in the towel because I had been reading about good finisher stones and their cost, along with diamond plates and everything. I can not buy too much.
Your comment made me a bit more confident.
I am using a 12k Shapton Pro and a bare leather strop. What have you found that is so far the best compound/emulsion? what did you mean by: A good alternative to cbn and diamonds would also be nice.? Thanks if you can let me know.

I like this stuff called “White Lightning “ from Etsy. It’s in a semi-soft cube form.

I go to it after 8K rather than 12K though…

I like it because it’s designed specifically for razor use.

I went 8K, White Lightning, & a little work on a black Arkansas stone and that was an unbelievable shave with zero sting from the shave splash. The Arkansas stone wasn’t necessary though it just naturalized the edge a bit.

 

[Gamma]

There are good alternatives to CBN and diamonds.. FeOx, for example. A quality red FeOx, synthetic, sifted well. Overlooked because it's 'old' and not 'cool'. Many variants out there but some of it is quite a good base for a razor finishing compound.

There are many types of silica, many crystalline patterns. Same for Alox. Can't just look at synth stones as just 'alox'. There are a million recipes, shapes, sizes, etc. It's very complex.
Alundum is used for stones due to cost and availability. It cuts steel well and mixes into binders easily enough. There are many choices in that field so it's not like every maker using Alox is using the same abrasive, cuz thay're not.
I don't think a synth made with silica-based abrasives would be 'better'. They would probably be way more expensive though. Synths made using natural stone dust have not proven to be wonderful.

10k SS is a good stone. Hard to read as being much different than a 12k. Might have less tendency to tatter the apex. Stay on a synth long enough and that might happen regardless but I think the 10k SS has more latitude.
People think "10k = sharp so 12k = sharper, and I need sharper".
I think (know) it has more to do with how you get to that sharpness than it has to do with the sub-micron particulate of the finisher.
A well done edge off a less fine stone will shave better than a poorly done edge off a higher grit stone.
And yep - a good synth edge is prob going to be better than a junk natural edge.

Most pastes do better after lower grit synth stones actually. I prefer to jump from 5k. I never like paste edges after a 12k synth.
Shapton's directions say to use the purple 30k after the 8k Melon, no 12k; there's more to the game than 'grit'.

 

[lightfoot]

By the way I got a pad of Hot-Pressed 100% cotton watercolor paper to apply a few different compounds to and man that’s the ticket for me.

It has to be hot-pressed not cold-pressed and also needs to be cotton rather than the cotton/polyester blend of cheaper watercolor paper options out there.

 

[Steve56]

I once did a comparison of the 10k Naniwa to the 20k Suehiro. The difference was surprisingly small on my normal beard. The Suehiro edge would do better only on certain parts of my face in certain directions, but even then the difference was small. The price difference is large.

The reasons for getting the Suehiro is that it’s very hard and will last a long time, it’s very fast, and if you have a face/beard that simply likes the edges from it, then there ya go. I get asked for the G20 edges once in a while, from people who want to try before they buy.

 

[JPO]

What have you found that is so far the best compound/emulsion? what did you mean by: A good alternative to cbn and diamonds would also be nice.?

CBN and diamond cuts fast, but leaves an edge that I personally don't like. So, finding a substitute with the same speed, which leaves a better finish is probably difficult.
If I am using a compound I like to use something like FeOX on fabric or leather. If I use it on leather I like to sand the surface to give the leather a little texture/nap.
I have also had good results with TI's white paste.

 

[JPO]

I was about ready to throw in the towel because I had been reading about good finisher stones and their cost, along with diamond plates and everything. I can not buy too much.
Your comment made me a bit more confident.
I am using a 12k Shapton Pro and a bare leather strop. What have you found that is so far the best compound/emulsion? what did you mean by: A good alternative to cbn and diamonds would also be nice.? Thanks if you can let me know.

Share your honing experiment. What did you learn?

Right now I am in a slump. For some reason the last inch and a half of my blades to the toe are not keen. Heel to middle are exceptional. It’s driving me nuts and must be a torque issue?? No clue and it is causing me tremendous frustration. I changed something and I don’t know what. I have...

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