Spyderco ceramic hones

[captaincaed]

My dad used these for woodworking, and I really like the black medium ceramic for touch ups in the kitchen. Tons of bite and lasts forever.

I have seen a few folks use the UF for razor honing, thought I'd give it a go and also start a thread to group some info.ans experiences.

These are brutally hard. I've got a weird bent for flattening stones, and have done multiple hard, translucent and black Arks. This spyderco is another animal. I'm taking breaks and even busted out a diamond plate. It'll be a sacrifice for this project in sure. 60grit SiC powder is just not enough.

Also worth noting there's no reason to buy a UF if you're going to lap it yourself. Save your money. The package inserts says they're the same stone.

 

[Legion]

They are synthetic sapphire, no? I seem to remember that from the Sharpmaker video. Good luck lapping that. Probably harder than SIC.

 

[Gamma]

The Spydy UF plates are Aluminum Oxide.... sometimes manufacturers like to call that synth sapphire. Another old school name was Corundum.
But it's aluminum oxide baked into a hard ceramic binder, the Alox is Mohs 9.
SIC can be 9.5 Mohs - it's more friable than Alox typically.
When Alox is bonded, like the UF plate, its really tough stuff.
Every now and then someone decides to lap one...it's been a while.

I didn't find them worth the effort, to be honest. I think the base 'grit' of the abrasive is around 2k, typical for white ceramic stones like that. The surface condition determines the rest. I think they make good shop hones but I think diamond plates are better options for that but it's a preference based thing for me. They can kill a diamond plate and getting the surface right afterwards isn't all that simple. I am convinced Sypderco used CBN in a wet bath with a spinning metal lap of some sort.

 

[sd_baker]

I'm new to razors but I recommend Shapton Pro 1.5k, the prices of them have been going down and down on amazon. Also quite hard, but easily lapped. I used Shapton Pros with knives for a long time.

The spydercos have had issues coming from the factory out of flat.

 

[eKretz]

There is no binder in these hones. They are solid alumina. In the production process they're heated until it all fuses together. Some manufacturers use a very thin coating on the loose particles before fusing to facilitate the fusion but it's not really a binder. More of a facilitator.

Yes, they are extremely hard and dense, and a pain to lap in larger sizes especially. Surface condition is everything on these as it equates to how fine an edge you'll get. I have spoken to Sal Glesser, the owner of Spyderco about the UF version of these. The UF hones are ground with a diamond grit cup wheel, not lapped. Otherwise you are correct in that they are the exact same as the F version.

Be careful using SiC to lap one of these; as Keith noted, the SiC is very friable and will break down to a finer grit rapidly in use. If you will be using loose grit SiC for lapping you'll need to refresh it very frequently or you'll be doing more polishing than flattening.

 

[Chandu]

If you insist on flattening, use diamond power on a flat surface. On the other hand the spyderco will help break in a diamond plate nicely.

You don't need 100% flat. No barber hone ever was. It worked because the blade is drug across the stone at an angle, not in a straight East West pass. Go East West while pulling South. Then you don't need stones that are flatter than the curvature of the earth.

 

[Gamma]

Second hand barber hones are notoriously not flat, dunno if they started out flat or not though. I've had many unused NOS b-hones and the were a mixed lot, some flat, some not. Age does funny things to synthetic materials so I don't know for sure what's what. I think I remember an interview with the AHC owner saying they polished the hones flat. Anyway, after owning and lapping well over 100 of them, I find they work better when flattened.
The earth's curve is what, .001" per ft? Sure, I can live with that. I've yet to see a hone show up here that flat though.

The Spyderco UF stones incorporate a ceramic binding agent to hold the abrasive in place. They refer to it as a ceramic alumina product. It's not ceramic like glazed clay in art class. It's an industrial reference.
If Alox melts, it loses it's crystalline form. The batter is baked at a temp where the binder melts but the Alox does not. I want to say the sintering is @ 3000° F. At least that is what Spyderco sent out as an explanation about 12-15 yrs ago, IIRC they used the term 'fused'. For the end user all of this is irrelevant though, they're like a diamond plate in that regard.

 

[captaincaed]

I'm thinking really hard about whether or not these are worth pursuing. I think I'm mostly just crabby because they're so out of flat. I know a hone doesn't need to be a Euclidean plane, but honestly the closer I am the better my results are, more consistently. Considering this also doesn't release slurry, I'll be entirely dependent on the surface, and it's just laughably warped. I should take pictures.

I wouldn't put a chisel or plane on these and expect them to be in good shape over time. I suppose the medium is good enough for kitchen touch ups.

I may try to find a local machine shop willing and able to take a small project like this. I may throw a couple stones their way if they are. Get a couple once in a lifetime jobs done.

Yeah the sapphire language reads like marketing hype. It's AlOx Sintered (package insert days 3000F). It's technically softer than SiC but barely. It just pulverized the grit though.

I like the idea of trying diamond lapping grit or compound. What would you use as a surface? I use a piece of wet dry paper for SiC since it's all the same grit. Good enough for the diamond?

 

[Gamma]

Corundum can be sapphire, or rubies, all are crystalline Alox.

I remember stories on woodworking forums where guys spent hours trying to flatten them. Then they were left with the task of creating the correct surface condition.

Loose diamond on w/d might work, adds a lot of cost, possibly not much gain.
A cheap diamond plate might work, might not, depends on how well the diamonds are fused to the plate. Might be a bust.

 

[ables]

I have a Spyderco Fine I got cheap. One side was reasonably flat but the other was not, the bad side I spent a long time flattening using a combination of SiC sandpaper/loose grit, diamond plate and diamond paste. That side is practically glass now, and as fine as I dare make it before it has no abrasive use. Since it is white swarf shows up instantly and if the surface isnt flat or evenly finished the difference is easy to see. I would make it flat but somehow the surface would be differently polished/finished and require more work to get right. It really was a chore.

After all that work I do think it is like a modern day barber hone. It actually is pretty good razor stone IMO, but I do not like it for knives as it is glass hard with no feedback. Still I would prefer to use hard arkansas stones to finish razors on....

 

[Chandu]

I wouldn't put a chisel or plane on these and expect them to be in good shape over time. I suppose the medium is good enough for kitchen touch ups.

This is not intended to you as an individual but at what I see in wood carving and wood workers especially those that have picked it up as a hobby and came from computers or IT....

<rant alert>Very easy solution to that. For some reason people think you have to have a perfectly flat stone to sharpen a plan blade. 8x3 might be the worst thing that ever happened in the world of wood working tools. Back in the day sometimes plane blades were wider than a stone. It meant you needed to use the entire stone which wore the stone evenly. That was a good thing. One can also sharpen chisels and plane blades side to side on the bevel as opposed to back and forth. Doing so eliminates the need for a stone that is flat.

Hand wood workers of old produced works that were amazing and I've seen some of the chisels and plans they used to do it and many of today's wood workers would have a cow if they saw them. They'd rather work on getting flat stones, perfect edges etc than learn to actually wood work with tools that are simply sharp enough to do the work at hand. Chris Pye wrote about potential woodcarvers getting caught up in "Getting Ready" to carve rather than carving. Thinking about and putting massive work into sharpening is one such black hole of time and non productivity in the realm of what one set out to do, wood work, or carve wood. The masters of old made money on output of goods, not on how square and nice their edges were and they didn't need nice square edges to work wood.
</rant alert>

 

[DesertIguana]

Most of my experience is with Spyderco knives, I would rate them great quality. Friend has one of their ShapeMaker Setup. Like any tool it takes time to master. Spyderco don't make Razors so I think they are stick with what they do well, knives, and accessories.

Spyderco does have program for:

• Active Duty Military
• Reservist / National Guard
• Military Veteran / Retiree
• Law Enforcement Officer
• Paramedic / Fire Rescue
• EMT
• Medical Professionals

Program is called Opsfocus. If you one of the cover by Opsfocus. Check it out, it good discounts.

OpFocus - Spyderco

OpFocus

www.spyderco.com

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Thinking about and putting massive work into sharpening is one such black hole of time and non productivity…….

What?? This is just…. Huh?

 

[Chandu]

What?? This is just…. Huh?
View attachment 1740465

When getting tools workable is the main focus rather than working with them... I think some fear to actually try to produce a carving or piece of furniture so they seek shelter in obtaining and maintaining the tools that COULD, in the right hands do that work. The right hands could be theirs, but they are afraid to try.

 

[Gamma]

I know a lot of woodworkers that put a lot of time thinking about sharpening; actually sharpening, and getting a lot of work done too. And they keep their stones flat.

Back on topic....

After some web searching, diamond plates kept coming up as a weapon of choice for flattening the UF.

 

[Chandu]

I know a lot of woodworkers that put a lot of time thinking about sharpening; actually sharpening, and getting a lot of work done too. And they keep their stones flat.

Back on topic....

After some web searching, diamond plates kept coming up as a weapon of choice for flattening the UF.

You can, but I think loose diamond on something flat is more effective. The spyderco can kill a diamond stone pretty easily. If you use a stone be sure to rinse almost continually. The spyderco slurry will eat the nickel quickly and then your diamonds will come loose.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

You can, but I think loose diamond on something flat is more effective. The spyderco can kill a diamond stone pretty easily. If you use a stone be sure to rinse almost continually. The spyderco slurry will eat the nickel quickly and then your diamonds will come loose.

On my UF I had moderate success with loose SiC. The edges are beveled but sharp and needed a good rounding off to get them out of the way. I’ve also rubbed it with a variety of other stones and I think I’ve got nearly all of the manufacturer swirls out.

The feeling is really reminiscent of a hard Ark.

When getting tools workable is the main focus rather than working with them... I think some fear to actually try to produce a carving or piece of furniture so they seek shelter in obtaining and maintaining the tools that COULD, in the right hands do that work. The right hands could be theirs, but they are afraid to try.

You mentioned sharpening being a black hole of time and non productivity. The only way that could have hit closer to home is if If you included the black hole of “money”!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Years ago, when I studied under W.P. Wilcox, Master Carousel Carver, he would hone his chisels and gouges, several times through the day in minutes, on a home made leather wheel attached to a washing machine motor and coated with red rouge polishing compound. Chips removed with a diamond plate.

He famously said, “We get paid to cut wood, not sharpen tools”.

 

[Gamma]

This thread started out good but it's been derailed and pushed over a cliff for no good reason.

People lap stones all the time, people talk about lapping stones all the time.
Pretty sure that people are going to lap their stones whether woodworking poobahs like it or not.

I am interested in whether or not the OP gets that UF lapped, and how it gets done.
Delusional lapping phobias belong in a different thread.

@captaincaed
I read a bit today where someone claimed that his Spyderco UF was more dense than his Spyderco Fine.
Just a blurb on the internet so who knows if that is true or not. But I'd like to find out....if someone has two identical size Spyderco stones, UF and F, maybe they could weigh them and chime in.


Maybe lapping them with CBN would work. Once flat then SIC maybe.

 

[captaincaed]

For me a lot of this hobby is learning just to know, get better, so I end up down rabbit holes. In this case I got the set of three, and from my seat the Fine and UF feel the same, except for the surface conditioning on the UF.

My plan is to flatten the Fine, and condition the surface with a progression of SiC powders until I like the edge it turns out. I’m still not certain how I’ll actually GET it flat, but I think I have more stubbornness than sense, so I might just chip away in 30 min chunks.

If I can get it really flat and lapped to my liking, it’ll make a great reference surface, good check for geometry. If I’m lucky, it might even have a spot in a honing progression. Mostly just playing and seeing what turns up

I’ll do a water-displacement density measurement, see what that says.