Spend on the Hottop or save on the Behmor Coffee Roaster?

[Evil4blue]

I drink a fair amount of coffee and use a number of different brew methods (pour over, french press, Aeropress, and a Bunn Trifecta). I usually buy locally roasted coffee, and also order a fair amount from a few mail order roasters, but for about a year now, I've been thinking about getting into home roasting. I've done my research, and know that I want to get a decent roaster off-the-bat, rather than doing the air popper route.

So here I stand, money in hand for the $800 Hottop, but my little shoulder angle keeps telling me that the Behmor is enough roaster for the likes of me and that I should use the extra money on green beans instead.

What say you Cafe, I'm open to any and all opinions.

 

[Evil4blue]

Ugh, I'm not thinking. Can a Mod move this to the Care forum. Thanks.

 

[Mick]

Whoa, Just came across this post.

I have no experience with the Behmor.

I did buy a Hottop model B a few months ago as a "broken, needs fixing" purchase for very little and "restored" it adding a few modifications while I had it apart.

i only roast 1/2 lb (228 grams) of beans in a batch. That way I get an even break down and don't end up with a small orphan amount of green as I buy my beans by the pound.

since owning it, I have made maybe 40 roasts with it and each one helped me learn more and more. I keep records of every roast and then evaluate/comment about what I think so that I can go back and duplicate it again with the same beans.

I have been enjoying the Hottop and so far it has fit my needs perfectly. I can roast from light city (almost cinnamon) to Vienna and I am sure I could go beyond Vienna but I don't want a pan full of burnt taste and no coffee.

If you get the Hottop get the B model not the P model as the B is more of a manual roaster where you can modify the roast as it progress but the P model requires you to enter your program than it runs it without the fine tuning you can do with the B. And the B is less expensive.

I purchased a 3 tier warehouse cart that I keep mine on as I roast outside and I find this is the "ticket" for me.

 

[Evil4blue]

Thanks Turtle. I did a lot of research over the last few months and have been thinking about this for almost a year. I finally got up the nerve to hit the buy button yesterday and have a Hottop B model en route.

I've been following your roast posts in this sub and I'm pretty sure I've seen your handle on a few of the roasting forums. I'm a little overwhelmed by all the information on the net and am a little intimidated by some of the hardcore roasters I've seen in the other coffee forums. I mean, after reading some of the threads on the Hottop, it makes me feel that the standard $800 roaster is a ***, and I gotta drop another $300+ to get all the data logging and computer control stuff.

I'm sure that like shaving, I can spend however much time or money on this hobby, but in the end I think just being able to roast at home will make my life just a little bit more enjoyable.

I should be getting about 8lbs of green beans with the Hottop (bought it from Roastmasters) but was wondering is there a no fail bean I should try for my first roast? I like all coffee, from all regions, but I find myself sticking to mostly Ethiopian, Kenyan, Guatemalan, or Sumatran coffees.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Mick]

I had most of a response typed out last evening but I wanted to give your questions some more thought since you are considering spending so much on a roaster (did not want to do my normal "fan boy" dance and move on to someone else)

I do not want you to think that I am some kind of expert on the subject of coffee roasting. I am just an average guy who likes to drink coffee and who enjoys improving the taste of the coffee I drink. Roasting is just a natural extension of this desire to get a better tasting cup of coffee for me (I emphasize the for me part as each individual will enjoy different tastes in their cup of coffee).

I've not been roasting very long (around 6 months is all) and my only experience is with a B model Hottop.

You will run into a lot of folks in the online coffee world who think they are the last word. They think their taste buds are better than yours. Take all of that with a grain of salt (try to be gentlemanly when you encounter one, and you will run into many). Listen but evaluate and apply what you hear to your situation. After all it is YOU that will be drinking the coffee you source, roast, and brew.

So far I have resisted all of the datalogger stuff and rely on my senses to roast. I keep a written record of each roast (what happens each minute of the roast, temp, burner setting, fan setting, color, sound, and smell of the roast during each minute)

I roast exclusively by sight, smell, and sound.

I watch the beans through the glass on the front of the roaster (this is a nice feature of the Hottop, you can "see" what is happening inside to the beans). I can see when they are starting to turn, when they yellow, and when they start to develop a light coloring.

I combine this visual color change with what I smell. I check the scent/aroma that comes out of the roasting chamber filter on the top so that I know when the beans are starting to dry, when they start to roast. I use the same technique I do with cooking, wave my hand to bring the aroma to my nose so that I am not over powered with the aroma but can judge it.

I roast from very light (just past what I call cinnamon) all the way as far as I can take the roaster before the safety temp bean dump pulls the roast for me. I've found I can go all the way to a burnt mess if I control the internal chamber temp at the final stages and allow the beans to continue roasting while "fooling" the roaster into thinking that it is not near the danger (flash over) point inside the drum. I've had roasts that taste like fresh lawn clippings all the way to what is left in a campfire after it burns down as well as perfect roasts that are to die for. You have to take things to the limit so that you know what your available range is then stay within that range to avoid waste.

Anyway you asked about beans to start with.

I would recommend you start with some of the central or south American beans as these are the ones you have been drinking most of your life so you know what they should taste like. As far as specific ones to start outwith:

Colombian Supremo is every day American breakfast coffee taste. Good. Deep. Rich. It can take a variety of roasting levels and still come out good. This is one of my go to beans when I blend and want a good solid base to start from.

Second on my recommendation list would be Mexican Chiapas (actual it is my top recommendation but Colombian may be a better bean with training wheels as it is more forgiving). This coffee has more subtle back flavors than the Colombian and it is a better stand alone (single origin) coffee. This could easily be my every day bean. Nice. Smooth. Very flavorful when roasted right into first crack. Heavy on the chocolate flavor when taken into 2nd crack.

I would advise you to stick to the coffees from the Americas for a little while as the African and especially the Malaysian ones have some pretty distinctive flavors that might throw your roasting off should you try to "change" what they want to do. Don't take this as a dislike for African and Malaysian coffee as my espresso blend has both in it as does my every day breakfast blend. I just feel that the flavors of those coffees benefit from being "blended" rather than drank as single origin cups. THIS IS ALL MY PERSONAL OPINION and should be taken with a grain of salt as what you are after in YOUR cup may not be what I am after in my cup.

The BEST recommendation I can give you is KEEP RECORDS of EVERY roast you do. Even if you are duplicating another one, record what you do so that if your roast comes out different you can compare what you DID do previously with what you did in the current one to see if you made any changes that caused the difference or the beans have changed

 

[Evil4blue]

Thanks so much for the thorough response. I will definitely give the South American beans a run. I spent some time in Costa Rican when I was in college, 4 months actually, and that's when I realized that I was drinking crap coffee most mornings. At that time I thought I could really only get a "Good" cup of coffee by paying a barista a small fortune. I realized then I was dead wrong and I've tried hard ever since to always have the best cup of coffee I can make, everyday.

It's taken me almost 20 years to finally come to the fact that home roasting is the next logical step in my journey. I tried doing the stovetop, whirly-pop thing, but was not satisfied with the results. Then I had kids, and I never thought I had the time for home roasting, but now, the kids are older and I finally don't have any more excuses...so here I am.

I just got the shipping notice that my roaster is on it's way, so I have about a week to really bone up and psych myself up for this experience.

I really, really appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Oh, one more question, I know you said that you have a local source for your greens, but have you used any of the online vendors? Are there any I should avoid? I know Sweet Marias and Roastmasters have a good rep for quality, but I was wondering if there was anyone else.

Thanks again!

 

[Mick]

Thanks so much for the thorough response.

My pleasure. I try to be helpful without trying to sound like an "authority" which I am NOT.

Oh, one more question, I know you said that you have a local source for your greens, but have you used any of the online vendors? Are there any I should avoid? I know Sweet Marias and Roastmasters have a good rep for quality, but I was wondering if there was anyone else.

Thanks again!

I try to buy locally as i like to support local small business as I want them to be around when I need them.

I have bought several 8 lb sample selections from Sweet Maria's (my "blade sampler pack") but other than that, I have stuck with the local source as his beans seem to be of better quality (not to say that Sweet Maria's is inferior, the local roaster's are just superior and they are less than a mile from where I live).

 

[StillShaving]

....
Oh, one more question, I know you said that you have a local source for your greens, but have you used any of the online vendors? Are there any I should avoid? I know Sweet Marias and Roastmasters have a good rep for quality, but I was wondering if there was anyone else.

Agree that Sweet Marias and Roastmasters are good sources for green beans. You may also want to join the Green Coffee Buying Club and the Green Coffee Cooperative, where you buy at 5-10-15 lb increments at a time.

 

[Evil4blue]

I really appreciate all the information and suggestions. The Hottop is supposed to arrive this Thursday and I've put an order if for some Guatemalan, Brazilian, and Colombian beans from Sweet Marias. I'm hoping to join you guys in the "Today's Roast" thread soon.

 

[Mick]

I really appreciate all the information and suggestions. The Hottop is supposed to arrive this Thursday and I've put an order if for some Guatemalan, Brazilian, and Colombian beans from Sweet Marias. I'm hoping to join you guys in the "Today's Roast" thread soon.

Make sure to post photos of the xmas present unwrapping and of your set up once you are up and running

 

[Evil4blue]

If my tracking is correct, it should get here tomorrow. I excited and nervous...lol. I'm getting an 8 lb sample pack with the roaster, but I have no clue what beans I'm actually getting. I also bought another 8 lbs from Sweet Maria's that should get here on Monday. I figure that I should be good for at least a couple dozen roasts to help me learn the roaster and get the hang of this roasting thing.

I also signed up for Green Bean Buying Club and actually found a local source for beans, so I'm really excited about that. My goal is to roast something this weekend and hope I don't totally muck things up.

At least if I make a mistake with this hobby it shouldn't result in blood.

 

[Mick]

If my tracking is correct, it should get here tomorrow. I excited and nervous...lol. I'm getting an 8 lb sample pack with the roaster, but I have no clue what beans I'm actually getting. I also bought another 8 lbs from Sweet Maria's that should get here on Monday. I figure that I should be good for at least a coupe dozen roasts to help me learn the roaster and get the hang on this roasting thing.

I also signed up for Green Bean Buying Club and actually found a local source for beans, so I'm really excited about that. My goal is to roast something this weekend and hope I don't totally muck things up.

At least if I make a mistake with this hobby it shouldn't result in blood.

Start with the automatic profile and see how that turns out. Pick a bean that can handle a light roast as that is what you will get, a typical American breakfast light roast so if you got a Colombian or Brazilian (or lesser choice a Central American origin) start there.

You can brew right away if you grind your beans early (grind when you start so about 10-15 minutes goes by between grind and brew, which is just the opposite of what you would do with seasoned beans).

I'll send you a PDF of a manually log you can print. Record what the roaster does (fan on off and % and burner on/of and %) from that you can evaluate your roast and adjust the next roast up or down then if you like it, save it as one of the saved/re-callable profiles to dupe it.

I find that now I do not reuse profiles but set the roaster to max time and temp, then go by sight, smell.

.

 

[life2short1971]

I have the Behmor and the HotTop. They are both great but I have not used my Behmor at all since buying the HotTop a few months ago or so.
I love the ease of use and not having to thoroughly clean the inside completely every 4-5 roasts. I roast 10oz every 3-4 days for Espresso/ latte and pour over/French press so it is always fresh. The actual time per roast is about 12minutes approx.

Make sure you pay attention to rubbing noises when the roaster is warming up. If you hear any you need to tighten or loosen the brass knob on the face of the glass sight plate til it goes away. Failure to do this could cause issues. Its very simple but I wanted to make sure you were aware of it.

If you would like to know what I use as a roast profile to kind of guide you along til you get a basic understanding just let me know.

 

[ltjaw]

Great choice on the Hottop B. You will not be disappointed. I have been roasting at home for about 12 years, for the last 3 years on a Hottop B. I learned to use the Hottop solely with the information provided on Sweetmarias and the instruction manual supplied with the machine. Recently I have gone to the online forums to see what other people are doing with the Hottop and found I had already settled into a routine that works for me. So don't get too caught up in what you read online - put the machine to use and learn from it. Like Mick said, use your own senses to guide you: sight - the appearance of the beans through the window; hearing - learn to recognize the characteristic sounds of 1st and 2nd crack; smell - pay attention to the aromas emanating from the roaster.

I recently added data logging equipment (bean and environmental temp probes routed to Artisan software) and the fun level with roasting went up. I wouldn't say my roast quality has improved tremendously, but I feel that I can see what is happening in the roaster much better now and have been able to further tweak roast profiles.

I still keep a handwritten log of my roasts, documenting time, heat level (1-10), fan speed (0-4), and roast temp. I will plot out a rough profile before starting the roast, usually while it heats up. Some basic things to consider with your roast profile: charge temp (when you drop the beans in), length of drying phase (I cut the heat back to slow down the drying phase then ramp up the heat when the beans start to turn yellow), length of first crack (I cut the heat back and turn on the fan to result in a first crack that lasts about 2 minutes, maybe longer), and drop temp. The Hottop instruction manual has a graph of a roast profile and a detailed description of what is going on and what to do with the roaster, so use the manual as a guide at first.

Regarding the "best" beans to start with: I recommend almost anything with a broad range of recommended roast levels. I buy my beans from Sweetmarias, and Tom writes up a recommended roast level for each bean. Something that is good from City to Full City+ or Vienna is a good place to start. This way you can take the beans to different roast levels with a little more confidence that they'll end up tasting great. I find Central American coffees are generally the most forgiving. Plus, Central American coffees generally end up with the most even or homogeneous roast. My personal preference is for Ethiopian coffees, but these can be a little more challenging to roast, particularly the dry process coffees. Nothing to shy away from, mind you, just a little different - sometimes the cracks are difficult to hear, and they usually end up a more heterogeneous roast.

Most important, have fun!

 

[ltjaw]

Oh, one more thing, not related to the Hottop. I find that my drip coffee tastes MUCH better 48 hours after I roast it, and my espresso is best 4 days after roasting. So if you taste your coffee right after roasting and wonder what's the deal, keep this in mind.

 

[Evil4blue]

Well I checked the tracking this morning on my way to work and it says the machine is in my town. I should be sitting at my door by the time I get home.

I really appreciate all the guidance you guys have given me and I really feel like I'm mentally ready for doing my first roast. I'm sure it won't go as smoothly as I imagine it could, but hey, that's the fun.

As for logging my roasts, Mick sent me his template so I'll make use of that. I also purchased the Roastmaster App through iTunes and will work with that. I'm a database guy and Roastmaster seem right up my alley.

There are a lot of cool mods available for the Hottop, with the Artisan stuff being the most impressive. I can easily see going that route in the future, but I think I will leave the roaster as-is for the warranty period. After that, everything is fair game.

My biggest challenge is going to be finding the time. I have kids in sports and also coach a couple teams. My weekends are always really crazy, not to mention the number of practices per week take a huge toll on my free time. I will have to find an hour here and there to squeeze in some roasting, but I NEED my coffee so I will make time I'm sure.

I'll post some images when I get everything unpacked and ready to go.

 

[Mick]

My biggest challenge is going to be finding the time. I have kids in sports and also coach a couple teams. My weekends are always really crazy, not to mention the number of practices per week take a huge toll on my free time. I will have to find an hour here and there to squeeze in some roasting, but I NEED my coffee so I will make time I'm sure.

It takes me realistically about 30 minutes to shove the roaster outside, plug it in, pre-heat, drop the beans and finish the first roast. After that I can roast subsequent batches in about 12-14 minutes since I modified my roaster to "fool it" into thinking it is cold so I can start a second roast as soon as the first roast dumps the beans. Without this mod add another couple of cooling cycles (5 minutes each) before you can get down below 165º to start again. 165º is the built in safety cool down temp before an unmodified Hottop will let you start a subsequent roast. Hey, they have to protect you from yourself and they don't want you to catch your house on fire.

Which reminds me: NEVER LEAVE THE ROASTER ALONE WHEN IT IS PLUGGED IN. it will insist you press the control panel mid roast just to make sure a warm body is standing nearby as well as when it reaches 410º so always stay with it. They do this to make sure you are always there in case it should burst into flames (not kidding on this). I keep a spray bottle with water when near the roaster with a hose as a backup when I roast. Never had a flare up but the roaster had several drum fires before I purchased it that I needed to clean up so they WILL catch fire if you let them get too oily/dirty so STAND AROUND AND KEEP AN EYE ON IT when it is in use up until it is cold to the touch and unplugged.

I try to put aside about 45 minutes to an hour once a week. In that amount of time I can roast 3 to 4 half pound (228 gram) roasts. I've found using half pound of beans to be the optimum size (for me anyway) as I can take a smaller batch to a darker roast then a larger one so I have set that weight as my "standard" try to standardize as much as you can as consistency is what you want to shoot for if you want to product consistent tasting roasts

 

[Evil4blue]

It's Here!!







I also got Roastmasters sampler for $15...they sent me 8lbs of mostly South and Central American beans. I saw Brazil, Guatemala, Columbia, Bolivia, and Costa Rica in there along with some Sumatra. I'll have to do a little research to see if any of the beans are worth a squat. Although there were a couple labeled Fair Trade, so they should be at least drinkable.



Very excited to get started. I'm assuming I should/can run an empty load to burn off oils and such?

 

[Mick]

WHOO HOO....

Now go burns some beans

The beans you list should be perfect. I like the beans from central and south America about the best. In fact our evening carafe is some Colombian Supremo I roasted last week. Normally I use Colombian in my blending but I did a single origin brew and it was NICE!!!!!

If the Sumatran is marked "Mandheling" you may want to reserve that one as the taste is VERY distinctive. Very earthy (i.e. dirt/ground) tasting. I use Mandheling in my 3 bean breakfast blend (Brazilian peaberry roasted dark, Mandheling roasted med, and Rwandan roasted med).

I can drink Sumatran Mandheling as a single origin but it took me a while to "acclimate" to the distinctive taste of it and it IS distinctive tasting

 

[ltjaw]

Your fun is about to begin.

Start with a Central American. When the temp gets to around 410 (this will vary) listen for second crack. Hit the eject button when you hear the first few clicks of second crack, and all should be good.

And read that book it came with.