Seven hones for seven razors

[MajorBurnz]

Thursday, take 2: Charnley Forest

The shave last week was really good, so the plan was to see if it improved with some more strokes on the hone.

I used a light coating of camellia oil this time. It is lighter than the Norton Honing oil. I did 40 strokes very lightly and then stropped and shaved.

There was no real appreciable difference from last week. I think the Charnley edge has been maxed out already and further honing is not going to do any good. The shave was again, very smooth and very comfortable.

However, I did notice a couple of very minor weepers. I've noticed this before - an otherwise very comfortable and close shave being marred by weepers, when the blade was finished on a Charnley. I think that, unlike a coticule, the Charnley doesn't have any issues with cutting skin. So, if there are any bumps on the skin, it just lops them off - leading to the weepers.

Strangely, the shave was still very comfortable - so this was an excellent edge.

Grades are the same as last time.

 

[chuckr9]

Fantastic Tread!! Will this be put in the Wiki?

 

[tvldatsi]

subscribed! Very nice info here Yohann, I love first hand info like this thanks for doing it

 

[MajorBurnz]

Friday, take 1: Iwasaki's Choice Asagi

This is the last hone to be used in this thread, since I wasn't able to get to it last week.

It is a Japanese natural that I received only recently. I've played around with it, but I haven't done any real finishing on it, since I default to coticules when I'm in a hurry. So, this was the first real test for this hone. It is a bluish-grey hone, and I've tentatively given it the 'asagi' tag, though it may be something else. It was sold to me as an 'Iwasaki's choice', but there are no markings on it. It is a 'barber's size' Japanese hone, so circular strokes are what's called for.

The Friday razor needed some bevel work, so that was done with the DMT 1200, followed by the DMT 8000. After this point, all work was done on the Iwasaki's choice hone. Using a progression of Botan and mejiro naguras, the scratches were polished off the bevel and it as was already pretty sharp. Then the honing was completed using JimR's procedure (finishing on mashed slurry). The slurry was built using an Asagi tomonagura. It takes some time for the slurry to break down enough.

Once that was done, the edge (under magnification) was uniform and had a sandblasted appearance. It passed my edge tests, so it was stropped and held for use today.

This morning it was stropped again on canvas and shell leather. Today's shave included Arko face lathered with the Wee Scot (which is unfortunately not going to make the rotation, due to brush proliferation).

Man! was I taken by surprise!

From the first stroke on, I was amazed at the feel of the blade on the face. It felt like the metal was covered in velvet. I kid you not; I was unsure of what to expect from this hone, but I wasn't expecting this. To say that this was a comfortable shave would be like saying that Fred Astaire could dance a bit. It really was very, very comfortable. It was also very sharp - I could have stopped after the XTG pass, but it was so nice to shave with that I continued with my usual 3-pass shave. Once it was done, the AS splash application stung only a little.

All-in-all, this was a really, really good shave. I'll be using this hone more often, and if it continues to yield results like this, it may even dethrone the LGB for top of the hone pile.

I'll be using the LGB-honed razor again tomorrow, so I'll be able to make a good comparison between the two.

a) Ease of honing - 9.5/10
b) Comfort of shave - 9.5/10
c) Closeness - 9.5/10 (Shave was excellent).

NOTE: Some of my enthusiasm for the edge off this hone could be due to the fact that I wasn't really expecting anything special from it. The next two weeks will be interesting, to see if my impression changes.

 

[pelicano]

Hi Yohan,

Could you tell us more about how you used it? Amount of circles, laps, dilutions?
Just for comparisons sake.
I do sixty circles (3 sets of 20) per 10 laps, and start diluting when the slurry becomes somewhat thicker.
I keep at it until it becomes quite thin, and the blade starts sticking to the stone. It's nice because once I go to the other nagura, the blade almost immediately sticks to the stone, which I interpret as the previous thin slurry being finer than the fresh one, which I end up diluting, etc., until I reach the Tomonagura. I always finish each nagura with 20 laps.

It's much more work than a Coti, that's for sure. Yesterday I spent almost one hour on a Le Jaguar, in order to get it ready for some 0.10 CBN .

Also, next time, try just stropping on leather and see how you like it.

Friday, take 1: Iwasaki's Choice Asagi

This is the last hone to be used in this thread, since I wasn't able to get to it last week.

It is a Japanese natural that I received only recently. I've played around with it, but I haven't done any real finishing on it, since I default to coticules when I'm in a hurry. So, this was the first real test for this hone. It is a bluish-grey hone, and I've tentatively given it the 'asagi' tag, though it may be something else. It was sold to me as an 'Iwasaki's choice', but there are no markings on it. It is a 'barber's size' Japanese hone, so circular strokes are what's called for.

The Friday razor needed some bevel work, so that was done with the DMT 1200, followed by the DMT 8000. After this point, all work was done on the Iwasaki's choice hone. Using a progression of Botan and mejiro naguras, the scratches were polished off the bevel and it as was already pretty sharp. Then the honing was completed using JimR's procedure (finishing on mashed slurry). The slurry was built using an Asagi tomonagura. It takes some time for the slurry to break down enough.

Once that was done, the edge (under magnification) was uniform and had a sandblasted appearance. It passed my edge tests, so it was stropped and held for use today.

This morning it was stropped again on canvas and shell leather. Today's shave included Arko face lathered with the Wee Scot (which is unfortunately not going to make the rotation, due to brush proliferation).

Man! was I taken by surprise!

From the first stroke on, I was amazed at the feel of the blade on the face. It felt like the metal was covered in velvet. I kid you not; I was unsure of what to expect from this hone, but I wasn't expecting this. To say that this was a comfortable shave would be like saying that Fred Astaire could dance a bit. It really was very, very comfortable. It was also very sharp - I could have stopped after the XTG pass, but it was so nice to shave with that I continued with my usual 3-pass shave. Once it was done, the AS splash application stung only a little.

All-in-all, this was a really, really good shave. I'll be using this hone more often, and if it continues to yield results like this, it may even dethrone the LGB for top of the hone pile.

I'll be using the LGB-honed razor again tomorrow, so I'll be able to make a good comparison between the two.

a) Ease of honing - 9.5/10
b) Comfort of shave - 9.5/10
c) Closeness - 9.5/10 (Shave was excellent).

NOTE: Some of my enthusiasm for the edge off this hone could be due to the fact that I wasn't really expecting anything special from it. The next two weeks will be interesting, to see if my impression changes.

 

[MajorBurnz]

Hey Jorge,

I did about 60 circles (on each side) and then followed with 20 X-strokes.

For the Botan and Mejiro stage, I did 3-4 dilutions until the slurry was mostly gone.

No 'dilutions' were done with the tomonagura slurry. I did refresh the slurry twice, but after that I continued honing on it until the slurry broke down. I did add a drop or two of water every now and then to keep the slurry from drying. Number of strokes here was in the 100's, but I'm not sure how many.

This was one of the hones I was going to offer to you in trade, but after this shave, it's probably off the table until I've really had a chance to evaluate it against my other Japanese naturals.

Hope this helps. Stropping on canvas is so ingrained in my routine that I never really considered skipping it. I'll give leather only a shot.

Hi Yohan,

Could you tell us more about how you used it? Amount of circles, laps, dilutions?
Just for comparisons sake.
I do sixty circles (3 sets of 20) per 10 laps, and start diluting when the slurry becomes somewhat thicker.
I keep at it until it becomes quite thin, and the blade starts sticking to the stone. It's nice because once I go to the other nagura, the blade almost immediately sticks to the stone, which I interpret as the previous thin slurry being finer than the fresh one, which I end up diluting, etc., until I reach the Tomonagura. I always finish each nagura with 20 laps.

It's much more work than a Coti, that's for sure. Yesterday I spent almost one hour on a Le Jaguar, in order to get it ready for some 0.10 CBN .

Also, next time, try just stropping on leather and see how you like it.

 

[pelicano]

This was one of the hones I was going to offer to you in trade, but after this shave, it's probably off the table until I've really had a chance to evaluate it against my other Japanese naturals.

I figured as much: Funny how each stone leaves its particular personality on the blade.
I find the CF just as sharp and smooth, if not sharper than my Jnat (and my Shoubi is the best finisher I have encountered, along with the CF), but it speaks differently; like using the same words in a different language.

 

[MajorBurnz]

Saturday, take 2: La Grosse Blanche coticule

The edge on this razor last week was already excellent, so there wasn't much 'improvement' to be done by doing more strokes on the hone. Still, for completeness, I decided to go ahead and do some more.

No slurry this time - just plain water. 30 X-strokes and stropping on canvas and vintage Shell leather.

The shave was excellent again. Two passes, and I was essentially done. I waited a few hours longer than usual to shave and my stubble was longer than usual (significantly). The razor had to problems mowing it down. I think a 1-pass would have been presentable (not perfect, but good enough for a few hours).

This shave was close and comfortable. The edge was smooth, but the feeling was different from yesterday's Iwasaki's Choice edge. That felt like velvet on the face, this just felt like a smooth bit of metal. Different, but both felt nice. At this point, I'd say that if the results with the Iwasaki's Choice hold up, we'll have a tie.

The shave did not improve from last week though, so the grades are the same.

---------------------


I've been through all the razors once so far (and twice, in some cases). It seems that the edges are all pretty much excellent. The nuances of how the blades feel on the face are different between the hones. I'll detail this after the test is complete. They're all pretty capable finishing hones, even the ToS.

Also, for the edges where I did a good job honing, there has been no improvement with more passes on the hone a week later. It seems that once the edge is done, there's nothing to be gained by more passes (pretty obvious).

One thing that's stuck out: these blades are really easy to hone. They seem to want to take an edge. Very nice indeed.

 

[MajorBurnz]

Sunday, take 2: Tam O'Shanter oilstone

Last time I thought this could be sharper, so I honed it again on oil, but this time I only used a very thin layer of oil. 30 X-strokes.

The blade was sharper......but also harsher. The edge was certainly not shave-worthy, as far as I'm concerned. So, I stopped the shave and finished it off with another razor.

It seems like the amount, and viscosity, of the oil used could be very important for this hone. On plain water it is quick and puts a very keen edge on a razor. On a thin coating of oil, it's also very sharp, but a little more comfortable. With a nice weight oil, and quite a bit of it (3 drops smeared on the hone I have), the edge is nice to shave off.

This may be best suited for a 'pre-finisher' - to get a really nice keenness on the blade before the keenness is muted with another hone. We'll see after the next week.

All grades remain the same except for:

b) Comfort of shave - 4.5/10 (You could shave with this, but it wasn't really nice to shave with).

 

[MajorBurnz]

Monday, take 2 (for real this time): Oozuku namito karasu

Given what happened last week, I thought it would be best to discount that shave and count today as 'Monday, take 2'.

So, I first had to remove the damage on the edge from the last honing. This was pretty easy to do on the Oozuku. I just built another slurry using the kiita tomonagura and did a few hundred circular strokes. This reset the edge. I then built another slurry and honed using X-strokes, diluting every 30 or so strokes until I finished with 50-70 strokes on pure water. The edge was perfect, under magnification, and was nice and shiny. Passed all the tests again.

The shave was really good. Better than the first shave with razor. So, Stefan's technique does seem to work with this hone. It may still be possible to improve the edge, so I'll try that next week.

The edge was very comfortable to shave with, and it mowed down the stubble with no effort. It didn't have the same feel as the Iwasaki's choice hone, but it was equally as good. I'm pretty happy with it. The best thing, of course, is that it won't be necessary to build another slurry and break it down for touch-ups.

This hone is pretty hard, and I've found (in my limited experience with them) that Japanese hones are more difficult to master, the harder the hone gets. This is why I think I still have more comfort/keenness to access when I master this hone.

All the grades went up a few tenths of a point when compared to Week 1.

 

[MajorBurnz]

No updates for the last few days because there was no real change in the shaves.

Tuesday (vintage coticule), Wednesday (thuringian) and Thursday (Charnley) were all pretty much like they were last time. Good shaves all. I'd say the Thuringian edge was the worst of the bunch, but we're splitting hairs here. I don't like Thuringians, and that may be why I 'notice' the difference between it and the others.

 

[Joe Edson]

This hone is pretty hard, and I've found (in my limited experience with them) that Japanese hones are more difficult to master, the harder the hone gets. This is why I think I still have more comfort/keenness to access when I master this hone.

I can agree with this assessment. I've been playing a lot recently with my new Oozuku that I received in a trade with Maxim. Raising a slurry with tomanagura on it is like an exercise in futility. I'm slowing figuring it out, but it definitely is not an easy stone to work with.

 

[pelicano]

I can agree with this assessment. I've been playing a lot recently with my new Oozuku that I received in a trade with Maxim. Raising a slurry with tomanagura on it is like an exercise in futility. I'm slowing figuring it out, but it definitely is not an easy stone to work with.

It takes a lot of patience and water for me.

 

[MajorBurnz]

The second shave with the razor honed on the Iwasaki's choice hone was excellent again..................right up to the point where I was so focused on what I was going to write about it that I dabbed myself on the chin with the blade.

So, I got my first cut in a long, long time, and it is:

A) In a very prominent spot - middle of my chin
B) Pretty long - 1/2" or so
C) Pretty deep - there's probably going to be a scar

Regardless of how smooth a blade is, if you hit yourself with the edge, it's going to cut you. Also, regardless of how nice the edge is, if you don't respect the fact that you have a very sharp implement in your hands, you're probably going to get cut.

Anyway, my chin is a bit unfinished, because I had to steer clear of it for the rest of the shave, but otherwise the shave was great.

And yes, the wound healed. Looks strange, though. Weirdly enough, my wife and daughter have not said anything about it ------ I'm not sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

 

[dakotaev]

Great info here, thanks Yohann, you're getting my HAD going...my wife won't be pleased.

 

[danjared]

Great info here, thanks Yohann, you're getting my HAD going...my wife won't be pleased.

Maybe Yohann can help you with some trades. I mean, it is his fault.

 

[MajorBurnz]

Well, just to round off this experiment:

Saturday: I had to be careful, but the shave did go really well. There was no change in the edge from this hone. It was confortable and smooth.

Sunday: I went back and did 50 strokes on the ToS with 4 drops of the Norton oil and the edge improved immediately. This is one hone on which I need more time to figure out if the edge can improve.

The shave today was really nice, but not up to the par of the Iwasaki's choice or the LGB.

----------------------

I'm going to declare this experiment done (even though a couple of hones have had only two tries done). I'll explain my reasons for this (and give an overview of the results of this experiment) in a final summing-up post.

 

[MajorBurnz]

Right, I'm breaking up the 'Final Report' - so that it's not just one large document.

To sum up this thread:

The point of the thread was to see what effect the choice of finishing hone would have on the final edge of a bunch of similar razors. If we assume that the razors in the 7-day set were identical, then the variables were:

1) The finishing hone
2) The skill of the honer (me) on each of those hones
3) The amount of time spent 'maximizing' the edge on each hone

I tried to minimize the effect of the last variable by continuing to 'finish' the edge even after I was sure it was ready - on three occasions - to see if any improvement ensued.

Regarding my skill on these hones:

I’ll admit that most of my recent honing has been done on coticules of one sort or the other. I like the feel of the coticule when honing, and I appreciate the resulting edge, so I use them most often. Given my relative experience and skill on the coticules, as well as my preference for the coticules edges, they started off at an advantage relative to the other hones.

The Charnley Forest hone is another hone I like and while my experience with it is not as extensive as that with a coticule, it is a hone I easily can get very nice edges off. I have experimented a lot with Thuringians (and even some labeled Eschers), and never really liked them, but I do know how to use them.

I’ve also used Japanese natural hones a bit, but my experience with the two actual hones mentioned here in this study was not extensive (almost nonexistent, in the case of the Iwasaki’s Choice).

Finally, the Tam O’Shanter was an unknown item. I had no idea of how it would work as a finisher.

 

[MajorBurnz]

So, to cut to the chase, my rankings of the edges I got from these hones:

Tied for first: The LGB coticule and the Iwasaki’s Choice Japanese natural
Tied for third: The Charnley Forest, and the Oozuku
Fifth: The ‘vintage’ coticule
Sixth: The vintage Thuringian
Seventh: The Tam O’Shanter

The caveat here is that the difference in overall shave between the best and worst in that ranking was pretty minimal. All these hones would work pretty well as finishers.

Sharpness:

The Charnley put the sharpest edge on the blades - hands down. The edges from the rest were pretty close.

Speed:

The Charnley and the ToS are pure finisher and are not suitable for anything more than final polishing.

The vintage coticule is very fast on slurry and pretty fast on water. I didn’t use the LGB for anything more than final finishing, though it is more versatile than that. The Thuringian is a pretty versatile hone for finishing and polishing (not as versatile as the coticules, but not as slow as the Charnley).

The Japanese naturals (when used with naguras) are pretty amazing. They can grind down the scratches from a 1500 DMT or an 8000 in a very short period of time. Maybe you can do bevel work on them too, but there are better hones for that. I love the evenness of the edges they provide.

One thing I want to point out: once the edge is done, more laps on the finishers are a waste of time. It doesn't improve the edge at all. This is what I expected, but I had to try and see if more laps made a difference. Most of the 'second and third finishes' on these hones were indistinguishable from the first go.

I’ll discuss comfort in my descriptions of the various hones.

 

[MajorBurnz]

1) The Charnley Forest and Tam O’Shanter

These are oilstones and are pretty slow cutters. Do not attempt to use these hones if your razor won’t already shave you pretty well. They will improve the keenness of the edge a bit after most of the finishers mentioned here, but you may not care for the final shave.

The first observation I have to make is that the liquid used as lubricant on them makes a big difference to the edge you get.

The keenest edge comes off pure water. It’s also the most uncomfortable edge - cutting skin pretty happily. A light oil, like camellia oil, improves the comfort factor a lot. The edge off both the Charnley and and the ToS was best off Norton honing oil (with very, very light strokes).

In fact, I think that using the ToS with a thicker oil, like mineral oil may make it even better (not sure about this; I didn’t try it out).

Speed of edge refinement is faster with water than with anything else, and gets slower with the increasing ‘weight’ of the oil used.

My suggestion for both these hones is to do a ‘lubricant weight’ progression. Start with water (maybe 50 strokes) and then progress through Camellia oil, norton oil and maybe mineral oil.

Used right, the edges are very comfortable and very, very sharp.

They also have a reputation for putting long-lasting edges on razors, but that was not testable here.