Rigidity in DE Safety Razors

[Jhona1971]

Ahhh, that felt good reading the current posts. Thanks for reviving it Jhona1971.

No thank you! I'm thinking of doing a bigger response to to what you said but I'm driving at the moment. But in the meantime i think you might enjoy one of my first posts

Have I sinned against us Fatip Grande users?

Hey fellas! Let me start this off by saying I love my Fatip Grande...but I have always thought the aligning tabs where too big and goofy looking. So I decided to CASTRATE THEM! 😈 I took the cap and wrapped the handle with electric tape so that when I filed them I wouldn't scratch the plating. It...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Jhona1971]

Ahhh, that felt good reading the current posts. Thanks for reviving it Jhona1971.

Also do you have any experience with Gillette Flare tip 1956? Saw one at a local antique store. Would you consider it mild or mid aggression? And must importantly does it keep the blade rigid? Didn't have a blade on me to test out the rigidity.

 

[Raven Koenes]

Also do you have any experience with Gillette Flare tip 1956? Saw one at a local antique store. Would you consider it mild or mid aggression? And must importantly does it keep the blade rigid? Didn't have a blade on me to test out the rigidity.

Where is TobyC when you need him? He would know. I don't have any experience with TTO's. Anybody? I do know that the Old Type, New Improved, New Type SC and the Post War Techs all have blade rigid designs.

 

[macintoshBR]

Also do you have any experience with Gillette Flare tip 1956? Saw one at a local antique store. Would you consider it mild or mid aggression? And must importantly does it keep the blade rigid? Didn't have a blade on me to test out the rigidity.

The Flare Tip is a middle-of-the-road aggression razor and like other TTO Gillettes (Slim, Fatboy) it holds the blade quite rigidly. Not Tech or Fatip-rigid but it is very rigid. Absolutely no risk of chatter.

 

[Scaramouche]

I've found that a razor that holds the blade more rigidly allows me to use what some regard as a lesser quality blade (Derby, I'm talking to you).

 

[Esox]

Also do you have any experience with Gillette Flare tip 1956?

I started shaving in the early 1980's with my fathers Flare Tip Rocket that was made in England. When I joined this forum I had just started using it again. I also used a D2 (1958) Gillette Flare Tip SS and compared them below.

British vs USA Made Razors (PIC HEAVY)

Seeing as I have both a British Flare Tip Rocket and a USA D2 Flare Tip SS, a British Tech and a USA post war D2 Tech, I thought I'd have a look at them and compare them to each other. I didnt know I was collecting 1958 2nd quarter razors, but apparently I am ha. I just had my first shave with...

www.badgerandblade.com

They're pretty similar but the British Gillette was the better razor for me and is still in use by my nephew today when he isnt using his straights or Piccolo. The British Flare Tip Rocket was more rigid but I'm not really sure why. I think they were just made more precisely. It was also slightly more efficient and slightly smoother.

I also compared it to a New LC below.

Gillette NEW LC Not Cutting It

I had an interesting shaving experience today. Soap - Stirling Margaritas in the Arctic Omega Boar Gillette NEW LC - Fresh Polsilver 48 hours since last shave. I hadnt used this razor for a while, my Gillette Rocket has been doing double duty lately, but I thought I'd take it for a whirl...

www.badgerandblade.com

Where the LC struggled from a lack of rigidity, the Brit Rocket just wiped the stubble off, with a so called 'lesser' blade.

Gillette TTO's changed considerably over the years. The early ones, like my Gillette Regent Tech, are highly efficient but lack rigidity. My Regent also has a surprising amount of blade exposure, which is what makes it so efficient. The design of my Regent to a later D2 SS shows a very different design with a major change in blade exposure.

Gillette Regent Tech.

Gillette D2 SS

My Regent has as much, if not slightly more, blade exposure than my Grande or R41. It is more rigid than my R41 but not nearly as rigid as my Grande, as is. However, that can be fixed... See the post below.

https://www.badgerandblade.com/forum/threads/should-you-be-committed-to-the-bosc-brotherhood-of-shaving-crazies.528278/page-67#post-9708536

As Gillette TTO's razors evolved, they became milder. Less blade exposure means less chance of blade flex and stutter but also lower efficiency. The later TTO's, 1950's and up, are much more user friendly than the previous generations.

I've found that a razor that holds the blade more rigidly allows me to use what some regard as a lesser quality blade (Derby, I'm talking to you).

My first shave with my R41 was with a Derby Extra. It skipped, twice, on the first WTG stroke on my cheek. Its virtually impossible for me to use with a Derby Extra in it and painful at best. When I swapped it for a fresh Feather it changed instantly. The added sharpness of a Feather blade didnt cause the blade to flex and tug as much as the Derby.

A Derby Extra in my Grande, and all mine are the older green tucks, is one of my favorite shaves. Its not sharp enough for a comfortable ATG first pass shave but for a 3 pass shave that blade is still in my top three.

 

[Jhona1971]

I started shaving in the early 1980's with my fathers Flare Tip Rocket that was made in England. When I joined this forum I had just started using it again. I also used a D2 (1958) Gillette Flare Tip SS and compared them below.



They're pretty similar but the British Gillette was the better razor for me and is still in use by my nephew today when he isnt using his straights or Piccolo. The British Flare Tip Rocket was more rigid but I'm not really sure why. I think they were just made more precisely. It was also slightly more efficient and slightly smoother.

I also compared it to a New LC below.



Where the LC struggled from a lack of rigidity, the Brit Rocket just wiped the stubble off, with a so called 'lesser' blade.

Gillette TTO's changed considerably over the years. The early ones, like my Gillette Regent Tech, are highly efficient but lack rigidity. My Regent also has a surprising amount of blade exposure, which is what makes it so efficient. The design of my Regent to a later D2 SS shows a very different design with a major change in blade exposure.

Gillette Regent Tech.

View attachment 1326043

Gillette D2 SS

View attachment 1326042

My Regent has as much, if not slightly more, blade exposure than my Grande or R41. It is more rigid than my R41 but not nearly as rigid as my Grande, as is. However, that can be fixed... See the post below.



As Gillette TTO's razors evolved, they became milder. Less blade exposure means less chance of blade flex and stutter but also lower efficiency. The later TTO's, 1950's and up, are much more user friendly than the previous generations.




My first shave with my R41 was with a Derby Extra. It skipped, twice, on the first WTG stroke on my cheek. Its virtually impossible for me to use with a Derby Extra in it and painful at best. When I swapped it for a fresh Feather it changed instantly. The added sharpness of a Feather blade didnt cause the blade to flex and tug as much as the Derby.

A Derby Extra in my Grande, and all mine are the older green tucks, is one of my favorite shaves. Its not sharp enough for a comfortable ATG first pass shave but for a 3 pass shave that blade is still in my top three.

Awesome thanks for the reply...I had already gone to my local Antique store and got me the Gillette Flare Tip . It was labeled 1956 b2 but I can't confirm it. But I saw the the blade was held very firmly. Not as much as my New Sc or Grande but much more than most of my de razors. It might struggle with ATV passes but that's okay. I only go atg if I really just was the aesthetic of BBS which is gone by the time I wake up Now that British made flare tip has me curious...this forum isn't good for my RAD. I just weened myself off from buying fragrances now I have a new thing I need to control. I will post pics of the razor I can't find serial number it just says "pat.off" Also got my baby Fatip some new legs

 

[Raven Koenes]

I started shaving in the early 1980's with my fathers Flare Tip Rocket that was made in England. When I joined this forum I had just started using it again. I also used a D2 (1958) Gillette Flare Tip SS and compared them below.



They're pretty similar but the British Gillette was the better razor for me and is still in use by my nephew today when he isnt using his straights or Piccolo. The British Flare Tip Rocket was more rigid but I'm not really sure why. I think they were just made more precisely. It was also slightly more efficient and slightly smoother.

I also compared it to a New LC below.



Where the LC struggled from a lack of rigidity, the Brit Rocket just wiped the stubble off, with a so called 'lesser' blade.

Gillette TTO's changed considerably over the years. The early ones, like my Gillette Regent Tech, are highly efficient but lack rigidity. My Regent also has a surprising amount of blade exposure, which is what makes it so efficient. The design of my Regent to a later D2 SS shows a very different design with a major change in blade exposure.

Gillette Regent Tech.

View attachment 1326043

Gillette D2 SS

View attachment 1326042

My Regent has as much, if not slightly more, blade exposure than my Grande or R41. It is more rigid than my R41 but not nearly as rigid as my Grande, as is. However, that can be fixed... See the post below.



As Gillette TTO's razors evolved, they became milder. Less blade exposure means less chance of blade flex and stutter but also lower efficiency. The later TTO's, 1950's and up, are much more user friendly than the previous generations.




My first shave with my R41 was with a Derby Extra. It skipped, twice, on the first WTG stroke on my cheek. Its virtually impossible for me to use with a Derby Extra in it and painful at best. When I swapped it for a fresh Feather it changed instantly. The added sharpness of a Feather blade didnt cause the blade to flex and tug as much as the Derby.

A Derby Extra in my Grande, and all mine are the older green tucks, is one of my favorite shaves. Its not sharp enough for a comfortable ATG first pass shave but for a 3 pass shave that blade is still in my top three.

Who needs TobyC when we have Mike.

 

[Jhona1971]

Who needs TobyC when we have Mike.

I really have to give Derby another shot maybe in my Fatip or New Sc. Maybe it will be good. I only use two blades right now feathers and Wizamet Super Iridium. Other blades just arnt sharp enough for my liking.

 

[Esox]

Now that British made flare tip has me curious...this forum isn't good for my RAD.

I can help!

Feather, Polsilver and several other blades in my Grande give me a 12 hour BBS every shave. Derby Extra in my Grande, 10 hours first shave and it drops to 6 hours by shave 5 or 6 when they get tossed. My #1 blade though is Feather but I only use them for one shave. At $0.32CAD each for the last 100 I bought, they arent cheap but they are the best. Thats the only combination that can even approach my MMOC and a PTFE but, I get 10 shaves from a single PTFE blade and, if I remember right, the last 50 I ordered from Connaught cost me $0.22CAD per blade. Thats $0.02 per blade at 10 shaves.

 

[Jhona1971]

I can help!

View attachment 1326138

Feather, Polsilver and several other blades in my Grande give me a 12 hour BBS every shave. Derby Extra in my Grande, 10 hours first shave and it drops to 6 hours by shave 5 or 6 when they get tossed. My #1 blade though is Feather but I only use them for one shave. At $0.32CAD each for the last 100 I bought, they arent cheap but they are the best. Thats the only combination that can even approach my MMOC and a PTFE but, I get 10 shaves from a single PTFE blade and, if I remember right, the last 50 I ordered from Connaught cost me $0.22CAD per blade. Thats $0.02 per blade at 10 shaves.

Those look amazing! Honestly I dismissed the derby's pretty early on in my shaving "journey". But maybe the right right razor will do the trick! I'ma give my whiskers a couple of days of growth to really test it out. Cuz sometimes I do go fuzzy face for a couple of days and a couple days growth is the norm for me. I'll keep you posted on how it goes. I appreciate all the help. I'ma go shave now with my first time with a schick type G and an injector in general. I only have one days growth but literally my blades came in today and I'm excited to test it out!

 

[Esox]

You'll pay for a British Bulldog. I wish they were mine but they arent. Just trying to help.

A Derby Extra in the New SC is also a good shave. I use mine very steep, all comb. 10 hour BBS.

 

[Jhona1971]

You'll pay for a British Bulldog. I wish they were mine but they arent. Just trying to help.

A Derby Extra in the New SC is also a good shave. I use mine very steep, all comb. 10 hour BBS.

Hey Esox actually tried out the derby with my Fatip! It was actually really nice shave. It wasn't the best thing in the world but very smooth and no irritation. Just wanted to know when you say steep angle do you mean something like this (I'll post a picture)? So you don't ride the cap. That's what I do with razors that have a slim enough head. Also ever tried Wilkinson Sword Classic blades made in Germany? Some people actually say they are less sharp than Derby's which I didn't think was possible.

 

[Esox]

Hey Esox actually tried out the derby with my Fatip! It was actually really nice shave. It wasn't the best thing in the world but very smooth and no irritation. Just wanted to know when you say steep angle do you mean something like this (I'll post a picture)? So you don't ride the cap. That's what I do with razors that have a slim enough head. Also ever tried Wilkinson Sword Classic blades made in Germany? Some people actually say they are less sharp than Derby's which I didn't think was possible.

I find more than 60 hours growth to be the limit for Derby Extra. If I shaved every 24 hours, they may be the only DE blade I used.

When I use them its always steep. The cap doesnt touch my skin, only the comb, and with increased pressure because they are so gentle on my skin. If you make a mistake, you'll still pay for it though.

When I first started shaving the only DE blade we had available in Canada was the Wilkinson Sword. They were made in England then and were very good blades. The vintage one I tried a while back was just as good as I remembered them to be. I have tried the newer ones made in Germany but I dont get along with them or any other German made blade. The coatings just arent compatible with my whisker composition and I find them extremely tuggy. They are still the only commonly available DE blade in Canada and at $15.99 for a tuck of 10 I'd sooner buy other blades. The last 100 Derby Extra I bought were $12 and change Canadian, shipped.

The term "sharpness" when related to DE blades can be confusing. All razor blades are sharp enough to easily cut hair. I firmly believe the differences we all feel is more in relation to the coatings applied and the order of those coatings in relation to ones own hair composition.

The Drag Theory.

"After discovering in his test lab that shavers could not tell the difference in blade sharpness, he was responsible for break-thru research that determined that blade sharpness was not a critical factor in receiving a good shave; rather a reduction in drag by hair clinging to the blade causing pulling was needed. This Drag Theory lead to the development of coated razor blades and specifically the Organosiloxane Gel coated Super Blue Blade (1959)."

Patent linky
Super BlueUS2937976.pdf

Theres some good information in that thread.

 

[Jhona1971]

I find more than 60 hours growth to be the limit for Derby Extra. If I shaved every 24 hours, they may be the only DE blade I used.

When I use them its always steep. The cap doesnt touch my skin, only the comb, and with increased pressure because they are so gentle on my skin. If you make a mistake, you'll still pay for it though.

When I first started shaving the only DE blade we had available in Canada was the Wilkinson Sword. They were made in England then and were very good blades. The vintage one I tried a while back was just as good as I remembered them to be. I have tried the newer ones made in Germany but I dont get along with them or any other German made blade. The coatings just arent compatible with my whisker composition and I find them extremely tuggy. They are still the only commonly available DE blade in Canada and at $15.99 for a tuck of 10 I'd sooner buy other blades. The last 100 Derby Extra I bought were $12 and change Canadian, shipped.

The term "sharpness" when related to DE blades can be confusing. All razor blades are sharp enough to easily cut hair. I firmly believe the differences we all feel is more in relation to the coatings applied and the order of those coatings in relation to ones own hair composition.

The Drag Theory.




Theres some good information in that thread.

Odd just shaved with Wilks and it was a nice smooth shave with my New SC. What does riding the guard/steep angle do exactly? And do you only do it with Derby's because they are forgiving?

 

[Esox]

Odd just shaved with Wilks and it was a nice smooth shave with my New SC. What does riding the guard/steep angle do exactly? And do you only do it with Derby's because they are forgiving?

A steeper angles gives a more effective shave. Derby Extra's can need some help, hence the increased pressure and steep angle. I prefer steeper over a more neutral angle with my Grande because theres so much blade exposure that when I use them at a neutral angle, the edge of the blade can flex and tug. Staying with a very steep angle lessens that because the blade is being forced into the cap giving less chance of flex.

In a razor with less blade exposure, Old Types and my Single Ring, I tend to use them at a more neutral angle but still with increased pressure. In razors with gap, like the New SC, I use it as steeply as I do my Grande while still taking advantage of the gap, all comb, and as much blade as I can use. Similar in my Slim, which is also a very nice shave. I really like my Slim but I need to shave a bit slower than I do with razors that have less blade gap.

Its funny though, the MMOC has a fairly substantial gap, but, because the GEM blades are .009" thick, the edge doesnt flex when I use them. In the case of my MMOC, the gap itself has never been an issue with irritation. The only irritation I get from my MMOC is because of the amount of blade exposure and the sharpness of the PTFE blades. When I have irritation from it, its user error and only occurs through shaves 1-4. By shave 7 or 8 I'm using that razor at a neutral angle and increasing pressure. I can easily indent the comb into my cheek a half inch, yet, because the blade is worn, I get no irritation at all.

This is why I put my money on blade stability. SE blades are inherently more stable than DE blades because they're thicker and stiffer. Its that instability, that causes me problems. To lessen that my top pick for blades in DE's are Feathers but I only get two shaves, at best, from them and tossing them after one shave just doesnt seem right haha but, they do work. A sharper blade has less tendency to flex as does a blade with coatings to match ones hair composition. They just slip through with less resistance. Thicker SE blades have more 'muscle' and can more easily overcome that resistance without compromising stability.

I find it all quite complex and interesting.

 

[Jhona1971]

This is something that I'm just learning so, I apologize if it's been asked 500k times.

I've recently learned that some razors hold blades tighter or closer to the cutting edge that might make the blade itself a bit more rigid.

I've experienced this first hand with a Karve razor (D plate) and a Voskhod blade. I typically only get a few 2-3 good shaves out of a Voskhod with a Gillette TTO type razor, but the Karve allowed me to go almost double that (5) before I felt that it was getting a bit too tuggy.

I was also told that my poor experience with a Derby Extra was most likely due to using it with a Merkur 23c and that if I had something made the blade more rigid, that I would get a better shave with it.

So I guess my question is, does the rigidity of a razor really affect its performance or is it a "you just need better technique" sort of thing?

I've been thinking of getting a Karve razor. My main De's are Gillette New Short Comb and my Fatip because they hold the blade firmly. Do you think the Karve holds the blade rigidly like these two razors or even better?

 

[Ivo4u2]

Since a couple of days a Henson al13 medium which is very precise and rigid. It shaves very wel and atg it can still mess up my neck.
but it comes pretty close to my Snmirn which is an adjustable and blade is no way near as rigid but glides easier and is a lot heavier.
Bottom line you have to try opposites can still be attractive

 

[Eben Stone]

Most razors arc the blade inside the head and clamp it somewhere near the cutting edges, some closer than others. The blade in the Henson is almost flat and all the bending is done very close to the cutting edges. I think there is some physics involved here that I don't know how to explain. I'm guessing it's the same rules that say the shorter the bar the harder it is to bend. All I know is I can go mustache first pass ATG and it's like a hot knife through butter.

 

[Mitzie]

Some DE razor blades seem stiffer than others. ie Merkur and Kia etc...(probably manufactured from slightly thicker steel or maybe due to the steel's heat treatment?)