Rigidity in DE Safety Razors

[Esox]

Interesting report.

I'm just starting to dabble in a SE platform, and today I got an incredible BBS shave with 1+ pass ATG with a Kai pink and the ATT SE1.

The difference between DE and SE is huge. The main difference is the thickness of the blades. SE blades are .009" thick. DE blades ~.004" thick. SE blades are smoother, but not all SE razors are efficient, or comfortable for that matter, but that comes down to the individual.

My GEM Bullet Tip isnt quite as efficient as my Grande. My MMOC while being twice as efficient as my Grande, is more gentle on my skin. The difference is the blade.

Once I learned my MMOC my DE world pretty much ended. Single pass ATG at ~48 hours growth with very little buffing for a 14 hour BBS finish thats even easier on my skin.

 

[J 5]

The difference between DE and SE is huge. The main difference is the thickness of the blades. SE blades are .009" thick. DE blades ~.004" thick. SE blades are smoother, but not all SE razors are efficient, or comfortable for that matter, but that comes down to the individual.

My GEM Bullet Tip isnt quite as efficient as my Grande. My MMOC while being twice as efficient as my Grande, is more gentle on my skin. The difference is the blade.

Once I learned my MMOC my DE world pretty much ended. Single pass ATG at ~48 hours growth with very little buffing for a 14 hour BBS finish thats even easier on my skin.

So I had heard, but I thought it was hype (and I imagined a thicker blade wouldn't necessarily cut closer).

I love that I've been at this for years, and I'm still learning all the time.

 

[rabidus]

So I had heard, but I thought it was hype (and I imagined a thicker blade wouldn't necessarily cut closer).

I love that I've been at this for years, and I'm still learning all the time.

 

[Esox]

So I had heard, but I thought it was hype (and I imagined a thicker blade wouldn't necessarily cut closer).

I love that I've been at this for years, and I'm still learning all the time.

It can cut closer more easily because the thicker blade just does not flex, at all. Even the very edge of a DE blade will flex in my Grande with a steeper angle. I can feel it and if I shave slowly enough, I can even hear a tiny 'ping' as the blade returns to normal after the stress is released.

There is none of that with my MMOC, even shaving ATG very steep using nothing but comb, its still a very smooth and comfortable, but tricky, shave.

You and me both haha. I have my razors and blades sorted but some soaps and creams are really opening my eyes to how good a shave can actually be.

 

[jmudrick]

Who needs gap when you have exposure and rigidity. Could be more broadly clamped of course but more than sufficient for a Fine, Pearl of a shave.

 

[rabidus]

Who needs gap when you have exposure and rigidity.

Who are you and what have you done with jmudrick?

 

[jmudrick]

Hehe yeah the same guy who loves his Wardonia .

Who are you and what have you done with jmudrick?

 

[rabidus]

Hehe yeah the same guy who loves his Wardonia .

Who makes that car?

 

[Esox]

Lancia. Or maybe Lada?

 

[Aziraphale]

I just recently got a Rockwell 6s. For a mostly newly designed razor, it seems to hold the blade a bit further back then some of my others (all my Gillettes, Karve, etc...). Just for the heck of it I crafted a shim from an old blade and used it between the bottom plate and the razor. It seems to have made more of a difference on my last pass (ATG) and has seemed to extend the life of my Nacet blades to an entire 7 days.

I'm beginning to detect a pattern here . . .

I also have a new Mongoose that I'm learning to use. One week on a Feather Pro Guard impressed me. So I tried the Feather Pro. Not bad but I got too carried away and razor burned myself but good. So, I'll be returning to my Blue Tip and a Gillette 7 O'Clock Super Stainless for a few days while my face heals.

 

[Esox]

Just for the heck of it I crafted a shim from an old blade and used it between the bottom plate and the razor. It seems to have made more of a difference on my last pass (ATG) and has seemed to extend the life of my Nacet blades to an entire 7 days.

I'm beginning to detect a pattern here . . .

Patterns within patterns...

See the similarities below.

Merkur/EJ.

Rockwell.

Baseplate support points.

EJ DE89.

Muhle R41.

Rockwell.

I think they all share a very similar 'generic' design because there are no patents on it.

Gillettes and the Karve razor are very different designs and offer far more blade support.

 

[mozartman]

Patterns within patterns...

See the similarities below.

Merkur/EJ.
View attachment 939296

Rockwell.
View attachment 939297

Baseplate support points.

EJ DE89.
View attachment 939298

Muhle R41.
View attachment 939299

Rockwell.
View attachment 939300

I think they all share a very similar 'generic' design because there are no patents on it.

Gillettes and the Karve razor are very different designs and offer far more blade support.

Yes, but there are some very significant design differences between the Rockwell 6S and the Merkur and Edwin Jagger (and also the RazoRock MJ-90, a CNC-machined modern clone). The Rockwell has a much smaller radius of curvature and the baseplate support points are further apart. All this was discussed in an earlier thread. I wonder if these changes were made with the thinner, more flexible modern blades in mind, while the much older Merkur design was intended for the older thicker, less flexible blades. I suspect this is a key reason for the superior (imvho) performance of the 6S over these predecessors. And it's interesting that while the 6S likely wouldn't have the ultra-rigid blade support of the Wolfman, Karve, or Game Changer designs, it should have significantly more rigidity than the Merkur or Edwin Jagger.

 

[Esox]

Yes, but there are some very significant design differences between the Rockwell 6S and the Merkur and Edwin Jagger (and also the RazoRock MJ-90, a CNC-machined modern clone). The Rockwell has a much smaller radius of curvature and the baseplate support points are further apart. All this was discussed in an earlier thread. I wonder if these changes were made with the thinner, more flexible modern blades in mind, while the much older Merkur design was intended for the older thicker, less flexible blades. I suspect this is a key reason for the superior (imvho) performance of the 6S over these predecessors. And it's interesting that while the 6S likely wouldn't have the ultra-rigid blade support of the Wolfman, Karve, or Game Changer designs, it should have significantly more rigidity than the Merkur or Edwin Jagger.

Yeah I'm sure there are geometric differences, but as far as baseplate support, they're all very similar. Another added factor with Rockwell is weight. Weight makes a difference and I believe a lot more than many may think.

 

[mozartman]

Yeah I'm sure there are geometric differences, but as far as baseplate support, they're all very similar. Another added factor with Rockwell is weight. Weight makes a difference and I believe a lot more than many may think.

Yes, I agree that weight matters, but if you look carefully at your excellent photos, you can easily see the differences I mentioned with the naked eye. The baseplate "support point" is much closer to the blade edge on the 6S than on the Merkur or Edwin Jagger, so it does indeed have more baseplate support or resistance to flexing. The greater curvature also causes more spring tension and resistance to flexing. The result is noticeably more rigidity, though still not as much as in the more fully supported "clamp" designs you are referring to. In theory, a spring tension design could be even more rigid than a clamp design, but I agree with you, that generally doesn't seem to be the case with these razors. The Rockwell is designed to hold the blade more rigidly than the Merkur or the Jagger, but less than the clamp designs.

 

[Esox]

Yes, I agree that weight matters, but if you look carefully at your excellent photos, you can easily see the differences I mentioned with the naked eye. The baseplate "support point" is much closer to the blade edge on the 6S than on the Merkur or Edwin Jagger, so it does indeed have more baseplate support or resistance to flexing. The greater curvature also causes more spring tension and resistance to flexing. The result is noticeably more rigidity, though still not as much as in the more fully supported "clamp" designs you are referring to. In theory, a spring tension design could be even more rigid than a clamp design, but I agree with you, that generally doesn't seem to be the case with these razors. The Rockwell is designed to hold the blade more rigidly than the Merkur or the Jagger, but less than the clamp designs.

Those pictures are from Google. I only own an R41 not the others and just use them as examples but thanks all the same.

The support points may be slightly further apart and for some that may make a difference. This is the hard part, learning how much rigidity one needs for a smooth and comfortable shave. The difference is far more noticeable when shaving ATG as many have noted.

Blade exposure works in concert with the amount of rigidity a razor offers. If lacking baseplate support, more blade exposure will magnify that lack and less blade exposure will minimize that lack. A great example of that is my made in England Old Type clone shown below.

The areas between the red lines are the clamping locations. Between the green lines is nothing but air space with neither the cap or base offering any support and you can see the white background between them and the airspace around the blade. That razor happens to be one of my most favorite DE's. It's as smooth and comfortable as a post war Tech, but because its an OC its more efficient. I use it as steeply as possible and shave very aggressively without issue.

If however, it had more blade exposure I'm not sure I could use it at all without flattening the round edges of the cap to lower to the cap to the base eliminating that airspace for more blade support.

An example of that, would be my 1940 Gillette Regent that has as much, if not more, blade exposure than either my Fatip Grande or R41.

The blade in it is clamped at each red line, but not between each red line, only at each of those two very small points, the outside edge of the door and at the bend on the blade tray to the inside of the door. The green lines showing roughly the location of the inside edges of the doors with airspace between them. Because it has so much more blade exposure, when I use it the blade can act basically like a lever as spring tension rises and the blade will flex and move in the airspace around it. Angle of use is critical with that razor and its a technical shave.

How I remedied that is shown below.

The tape strips eliminated that air space and instantly smoothed that razor out and I can use it at any angle with no issues whatsoever. A byproduct of adding those strips was making that razor very quiet, as quiet as my Fatip and Old Types, and the early Gillette TTO's are considered noisy shavers. That airspace and the blade vibrations are why. The head acts like an echo chamber when the blade vibrates inside them.

I personally prefer as rigid a blade edge as possible because I can easily feel the increased smoothness. This is why I prefer my MMOC over any of my DE's. The added thickness of the SE blades makes a very large difference in smoothness and consequently closeness of shave, but technique can quickly become very important with a razor such as the MMOC.

 

[mozartman]

Those pictures are from Google. I only own an R41 not the others and just use them as examples but thanks all the same.

The support points may be slightly further apart and for some that may make a difference. This is the hard part, learning how much rigidity one needs for a smooth and comfortable shave. The difference is far more noticeable when shaving ATG as many have noted.

Blade exposure works in concert with the amount of rigidity a razor offers. If lacking baseplate support, more blade exposure will magnify that lack and less blade exposure will minimize that lack. A great example of that is my made in England Old Type clone shown below.

View attachment 939585

The areas between the red lines are the clamping locations. Between the green lines is nothing but air space with neither the cap or base offering any support and you can see the white background between them and the airspace around the blade. That razor happens to be one of my most favorite DE's. It's as smooth and comfortable as a post war Tech, but because its an OC its more efficient. I use it as steeply as possible and shave very aggressively without issue.

If however, it had more blade exposure I'm not sure I could use it at all without flattening the round edges of the cap to lower to the cap to the base eliminating that airspace for more blade support.

An example of that, would be my 1940 Gillette Regent that has as much, if not more, blade exposure than either my Fatip Grande or R41.

View attachment 939599

The blade in it is clamped at each red line, but not between each red line, only at each of those two very small points, the outside edge of the door and at the bend on the blade tray to the inside of the door. The green lines showing roughly the location of the inside edges of the doors with airspace between them. Because it has so much more blade exposure, when I use it the blade can act basically like a lever as spring tension rises and the blade will flex and move in the airspace around it. Angle of use is critical with that razor and its a technical shave.

How I remedied that is shown below.

View attachment 939593

The tape strips eliminated that air space and instantly smoothed that razor out and I can use it at any angle with no issues whatsoever. A byproduct of adding those strips was making that razor very quiet, as quiet as my Fatip and Old Types, and the early Gillette TTO's are considered noisy shavers. That airspace and the blade vibrations are why. The head acts like an echo chamber when the blade vibrates inside them.

I personally prefer as rigid a blade edge as possible because I can easily feel the increased smoothness. This is why I prefer my MMOC over any of my DE's. The added thickness of the SE blades makes a very large difference in smoothness and consequently closeness of shave, but technique can quickly become very important with a razor such as the MMOC.

Thanks, Mike, for that excellent and informative analysis. I've long thought the problem with the vintage Gillette TTOs, well-made and fine shavers though they are, is that they were designed for thicker and stiffer blades. How interesting that you can improve one with such a seemingly minor modification. I guess it increases rigidity just enough. You are a clever guy.

 

[Esox]

Thanks, Mike, for that excellent and informative analysis. I've long thought the problem with the vintage Gillette TTOs, well-made and fine shavers though they are, is that they were designed for thicker and stiffer blades. How interesting that you can improve one with such a seemingly minor modification. I guess it increases rigidity just enough. You are a clever guy.

You're welcome and thanks!

Those tape strips added a lot of support. I can even feel it as I tighten the razor on a blade. The difference in shave feel is incredible.

The problem I see is, the baseplates in TTO's, and many other razors, are flat. The cap is curved and once the cap is over a blade, it imparts a curve too the blade. Why not just make the base curved the same as the underside of the cap? The added material is minimal, but the benefit of that change could make or break a razor for someone.

I learned before kindergarten that a round peg doesnt fit a square hole lol.

 

[Jhona1971]

Have you taken a poll from these people all over the world?

• Do they all shave ATG?
• Do they all get BBS every shave?
• Are all of their shaves smooth ATG?

Many men cringe at the sight of DE blades, one guy said he use to walk around with toilet paper on his face with all the nicks he got from shaving with a DE.

I would like to see all this data from people all over the world shaving comfortably with DE razors ATG! Because here on this site, those that make the switch notice the difference instantly. Some people figure it out on their own with out reading a word in this site.

I guess all the people I've help with rigidly are wrong also.

BTW I did take a Poll here, not everybody goes fo BBS!

[POLL] BBS or DFS

A few people mentioned in this thread that they don't shave ATG, which is where rigidity matters most. Where I come from, you can't get BBS without going ATG!

I know this is an old thread but I have to say that I am one of those people you have helped including Rabidus by spreading the word about blade rigidity. Some people don't have sensitive skin and hair made of electrical wires lol like us. And don't know the pain of trying to find what works. It took me 3 years of trial and error before I stumbled upon you guys and the whole rigidity debate. You recommended the Gillette New SC and Fatip Grande and those things are a dream. My favorite being the new sc. I almost wanted to cry when I was able to go against the grain with my new sc with a feather and experienced no blade hesitation or chatter. Its the only 2 de's that I use now. And trust me I've had a few. For example R41 2013,merkur 34c, Rockwell 6s,Fatboy, Gillette slim adjustable,ej89 etc. All of them enter chatter city when going against the grain or even wtg passes. Now the only de razors I use are my Fatip grande, New Sc and my ever growing Gem/ever ready razors. Thank you sir my de journey still exists and now I know what to look for before I buy any new de. Next one on my list will be the razor rock game changer .68. Do you have this razor? It definitely looks like it has what I'm looking for. Looking to get a milder daily driver and this one seems to fit the bill. It's either this one or possibly getting the Fatip closed comb or maybe even the slant version closed comb. Thanks again Esox and Rabidus.

 

[Esox]

I know this is an old thread but I have to say that I am one of those people you have helped including Rabidus by spreading the word about blade rigidity. Some people don't have sensitive skin and hair made of electrical wires lol like us. And don't know the pain of trying to find what works. It took me 3 years of trial and error before I stumbled upon you guys and the whole rigidity debate. You recommended the Gillette New SC and Fatip Grande and those things are a dream. My favorite being the new sc. I almost wanted to cry when I was able to go against the grain with my new sc with a feather and experienced no blade hesitation or chatter. Its the only 2 de's that I use now. And trust me I've had a few. For example R41 2013,merkur 34c, Rockwell 6s,Fatboy, Gillette slim adjustable,ej89 etc. All of them enter chatter city when going against the grain or even wtg passes. Now the only de razors I use are my Fatip grande, New Sc and my ever growing Gem/ever ready razors. Thank you sir my de journey still exists and now I know what to look for before I buy any new de. Next one on my list will be the razor rock game changer .68. Do you have this razor? It definitely looks like it has what I'm looking for. Looking to get a milder daily driver and this one seems to fit the bill. It's either this one or possibly getting the Fatip closed comb or maybe even the slant version closed comb. Thanks again Esox and Rabidus.

Old threads are still here for this very reason.

It can take time finding what works the best and understanding why. Its a process of elimination and no one can say what might give another their best shaves. At best we can only offer what works for each of us as a guide. In the end its worth it.

My last two shaves have been with a New SC and a Feather. Both completely smooth and comfortable. It surprised me because it's been so long since I used it and much longer since I used it with a Feather. I followed it with my MMOC, doing the same three quick passes with the same small amount of buffing. The MMOC shaves much closer, no surprise there but the New SC is one fine razor.

I have not used a Game Changer but it appears to be a pretty good design to my eyes. It depends what you're looking for. Milder to me, means less gap and/or less blade exposure. The Gillette Old Type offers both.

Because it is such a rigid design with negative blade exposure and virtually no gap at all, I dont feel the blade. Because I dont feel the blade, especially with a fresh Feather, I dont know I've made a mistake until I see blood. Its an unforgiving razor but if the base and cap are straight and you develop your technique to suit it, its hard to beat.

If you were to curve the comb enough to increase the blade exposure to be equal to a Fatip, you would have a Fatip. They are basically the same razor with that difference.

I really like my Slim and have used it often in the last while. I use it now on 5 and 6 and with a Perma-Sharp Super it can give me a really fantastic shave. However, if I shave too quickly, because of the blade gap and the fact that my stubble is difficult to cut, I can have weepers on the trouble spots on my neck. If I slow down a bit, that doesnt happen. I dont like to slow down haha.

I have the Fatip slant. Its arguably more efficient than my Grande but the one thing I just cant get past is the blade being torqued. The shallow side of the blade is fine and the steep side of the blade is fine. The transition point of the blade between those two extremes makes it feel like its scraping. Personally, I dont like that feeling and I keep trying to hunt an angle where I cant feel it and I cant find one. I much prefer my Grande but I understand why those that love the slant do.

I can shave directly ATG first pass with any of my rigid designs, post war Tech and Slim included. The difference is the efficiency level. Among my DE's, my Grande is king but the top dog on my shelf is, still, the MMOC, by a large margin. DE blades just cant compete because they have half the inherent rigidity.

Now that I think about it, I think of my GEM Bullet Tip as equal to my Grande in efficiency but because of the thicker PTFE blade, its a more gentle shave. They each shave me just as closely but the GEM blade is more stable and that relates to being smoother and more gentle on my skin. The humble Bullet Tip is a very good and capable razor. The window of available angles is much less than with the MMOC. Think of the Bullet Tip being a Gillette Tech and the MMOC being a Fatip Grande. With a Tech, the shave angle needs to be much more precise. Treat the Bullet Tip the same and you might find yourself surprised.

 

[Raven Koenes]

Ahhh, that felt good reading the current posts. Thanks for reviving it Jhona1971.