So I have a quick question. I wanted to practice my honing today so I went from Suehiro 1.2K to Norton 4K then 8K then 1u film over copy paper before finishing up on pasted balsa and sprayed felt. I noticed when I was honing, since I don't have a loupe yet, that there was a definite change after a certain number of laps. I didn't count but I noticed it felt smoother at some point and I can only assume that's when it's OK to step up to the next part of the progression. Is this a safe assumption or did I just jack up my edges? I'll definitely need to get a loupe at some point so I can take a look at the edges but for now I'm just practicing. I'll do a test shave tomorrow to see how I did.
Question about when to move onto the next step
- Thread starter Bird_Flu
- Start date
i never count laps at any step. i check my bevel buy clipping arm hair above the skin and feel. if it passes i move up. if the bevel is properly set u are over half way there IMO. buy the feel and sound on the stone and if it still passes or improves on the arm hair test referred to previously. but i have alot of honing experience. i use different progressions and stones but my favorite is the arki's.
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- #3
So by the feel on the stone does it feel like there is less drag, aka it gets smoother or is that something that's completely in my mind?
These razors were shaving OK before, not quite as smooth slightly tugging, I just wanted the practice of the motions and getting a feel for it. The shaving of arm hair did get easier with each progression though which I'm guessing by your post is a good thing. When my two Gold Dollars come back I'll get a real chance to set some bevels.
These razors were shaving OK before, not quite as smooth slightly tugging, I just wanted the practice of the motions and getting a feel for it. The shaving of arm hair did get easier with each progression though which I'm guessing by your post is a good thing. When my two Gold Dollars come back I'll get a real chance to set some bevels.
Sounds to me like what you're experiencing is a change in feedback, which is great. The feel of the blade gliding over the stone, the undercut of the slurry/water, the "resistance" or lack thereof, are all feedback "indicators" that can help tell you where you're at. You're honing by feel and not by counting, which is also a good thing. Counting laps has its uses sometimes, but it's much more important to be aware of what's going on between razor and stone by paying att'n to the feedback...
Good stuff!!
Good stuff!!
I used to count laps..start with 20 VERY firm laps on your 1.2k stone....then do 20 more...then do 20 more lighter laps..then more lighter laps..then try to shave a few knuckle hairs off..if they pop off easily without touching your skin..your good to move on...all in all if the razor has never been honed then it takes less than 30 minutes..but more than 5 minutes...YMMV with every edge and condition of it....
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- #6
Thanks guys, sounds like I'm not about to be hauled off to the laughing academy which is a good thing.
So for those of you that hone by feel, you mentioned undercutting the water/slurry, does this refer to the water pouring over the top of the blade making a nice bow wave so to speak? Is there anyone here that hones completely by feel not relying on any other aides such as a USB microscope or loupe? This is all new to me but part of getting into straight razor shaving was I wanted to be able to maintain my own equipment and not have to rely on the assistance of others to keep my blades sharp.
So for those of you that hone by feel, you mentioned undercutting the water/slurry, does this refer to the water pouring over the top of the blade making a nice bow wave so to speak? Is there anyone here that hones completely by feel not relying on any other aides such as a USB microscope or loupe? This is all new to me but part of getting into straight razor shaving was I wanted to be able to maintain my own equipment and not have to rely on the assistance of others to keep my blades sharp.
~~~since I hone using natural stones, what's done by feel is knowing when to dilute, or move on, change up the honing stroke. The bow wave is the same as undercutting. When you see undercutting where there was none before, you're making progress...the edge is shaping up, coming around
~~~I doubt many here have access to a USB microscope...most when wanting a look at the edge, use a simpler tool, like the loupe. I don't hone w/o my loupe but there are some that go without...to each his own. I have a few different loupes but the one I use the most (most often) is a metal cased 10 X. I can see all I need to with that level of magnification
Most here feel the same way. Would be a pity if one were to ding their shaving edge, with no way to repair on their own. Starting out, a lot of this will be a mystery to you, though in due time you'll have a pretty good handle on all of it. Folks here will help...all you have to do is ask
Best,
Jake
Reddick Fla.
I don't count I go by feel. When I feel the the razor start to get a bit of drag like its starting to carve into the stone I give it a few more laps then on to the next step. If the feel doesn't change I keep honing until it does or go backwards a step or two because something isn't right.
- Thread starter
- #9
Thanks Gentlemen! I think I might turn this into a honing journal of sorts once I get some more stuff to hone. Your feedback has been invaluable in this learning process.
USB Microscopes are readliy available at Amazon,,,I ordered one last night, a 10x- 400X for $40 shipped,,,,imo, if you can't see your edge and see what you're doing, you're honing in the blind.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
About the feedback...
You may notice that it begins to glide more smoothly on the stone or film, but if you continue, it will get kind of grabby, like there is a suction between film and blade, or stone and blade. That is when you have truly peaked with that current hone. The grabby feeling is more evident on finer hones. I have noticed it on naturals but it is very obvious on fine (and well lapped, very flat and smooth) synthetics and 1u or .3u lapping film. So at some point if your edges seem to be lacking something, try honing through the smooth stage and look for the sticky stage. Not all hones are alike, and getting to know yours and how they react and feel will make you a better honer.
You may notice that it begins to glide more smoothly on the stone or film, but if you continue, it will get kind of grabby, like there is a suction between film and blade, or stone and blade. That is when you have truly peaked with that current hone. The grabby feeling is more evident on finer hones. I have noticed it on naturals but it is very obvious on fine (and well lapped, very flat and smooth) synthetics and 1u or .3u lapping film. So at some point if your edges seem to be lacking something, try honing through the smooth stage and look for the sticky stage. Not all hones are alike, and getting to know yours and how they react and feel will make you a better honer.
- Thread starter
- #13
OK this makes a lot more sense now I know what to feel for. So in regards to what I did, just getting it to the smooth stage was that an incomplete job? Should I go back to 1.2k and work my way back up? Or since these were already bevel set and just in need of a touch up am I OK? The Torrey shaved fine this morning nice and smooth, not as smooth as it could have been but not awful.
I would go back to the 4K and start up from there first.
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
If you know that the bevel was set then you don't need to revisit the bevel setter. If there is the slightest doubt, then you should. The feedback is much different with coarser stones and you can't expect to feel a grab from a 1.2k stone. Your cues will be more visual. And of course there is the burr if you want to go that way but you may well feel that raising a burr on your bevel setter is overkill in this instance.
You have nothing to lose but time and patience anyway, if you just go back to your 4k, for instance. For that matter, you could go for a burr on the 4k. If you get a good full length burr (it may be much harder to feel than a burr from your bevel setter) after only 50 circle strokes on your 4k it will be obvious that your bevel was set and you could knock off the bevel with regular laps and continue up to 8k. A good 8k edge will shave adequately though maybe not anything to write home about.
If it doesn't work, then you got to try something else. Like going back to the bevel setter after all.
Have you performed a sharpie test?
You have nothing to lose but time and patience anyway, if you just go back to your 4k, for instance. For that matter, you could go for a burr on the 4k. If you get a good full length burr (it may be much harder to feel than a burr from your bevel setter) after only 50 circle strokes on your 4k it will be obvious that your bevel was set and you could knock off the bevel with regular laps and continue up to 8k. A good 8k edge will shave adequately though maybe not anything to write home about.
If it doesn't work, then you got to try something else. Like going back to the bevel setter after all.
Have you performed a sharpie test?
- Thread starter
- #16
I have not performed a sharpie test. However I went back to 4K and could feel the change that everyone was referring to in regards to undercutting. It was an interesting sensation feeling it start to drag a bit. I did get arm hair pinging above the skin all the way across the blade on both blades. I followed up my honing with 100 laps on pasted balsa, 50 laps on sprayed felt and I'll strop them both up before shaving. Now the real test will come on the next shave when I see if I got a smooth edge rather than just a sharp edge.
IMo, this is very simple, I don't know why folks seem to want to put so much mistique into it. You want to do 3 things:
1. set the bevel
2. "center the bur"
3. polish out the scratches.
Setting the bevel is simple, if you have the tools. Say you you want a 15degree bevel...that's 7 1/2 degrees on each side. Get an angle finder and set the degrees and set your bevel.
The bur thing is easy, IF YOU CAN SEE IT- when you hone, you're actually pushing the very edge over, that is the bur. The problem most folks have ( and why the number of strokes doesn't mnatter), is if you do 15 strokes on one side, you've pushed that bur over so far, so with 15 strokes on the other side, you just push the bur to the other side just as much. You can spend all day pushing that bur from one side to the other. However, If you can see the bur, you just stroke it until you get it dead center and that's it, so it may take 2 strokes on one side and only 1 on the other. Once you get the bur in the middle, that's it, now all you want to do is polish the scratches off the bevel( hence the finer and finer stones and medium).
The whole purpose of the finer stones and such is to polish the scrathes off. The more polished you can get that edge, the sharper it will be.
I sent my razors to this guy, check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRMu-WEaFNE
1. set the bevel
2. "center the bur"
3. polish out the scratches.
Setting the bevel is simple, if you have the tools. Say you you want a 15degree bevel...that's 7 1/2 degrees on each side. Get an angle finder and set the degrees and set your bevel.
The bur thing is easy, IF YOU CAN SEE IT- when you hone, you're actually pushing the very edge over, that is the bur. The problem most folks have ( and why the number of strokes doesn't mnatter), is if you do 15 strokes on one side, you've pushed that bur over so far, so with 15 strokes on the other side, you just push the bur to the other side just as much. You can spend all day pushing that bur from one side to the other. However, If you can see the bur, you just stroke it until you get it dead center and that's it, so it may take 2 strokes on one side and only 1 on the other. Once you get the bur in the middle, that's it, now all you want to do is polish the scratches off the bevel( hence the finer and finer stones and medium).
The whole purpose of the finer stones and such is to polish the scrathes off. The more polished you can get that edge, the sharper it will be.
I sent my razors to this guy, check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRMu-WEaFNE
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
No that's not what you do. The spine is your bevel guide. It's not a knife. It's a razor. You would normally NOT want a 15 degree bevel, and if you did, on most razors you would have to work the spine thinner because typically the blade is made to have a bevel between 16 and about 17-1/2 degrees.
If the burr is clearly visible the whole length of the blade, you wasted a lot of steel. All you need is to feel it if you are using the burr method.
You do not push the burr back and forth side to side. You raise the burr, raise it on the other side, and hone it away with alternating laps. You don't center it. You make it go away. If you raise a burr and center it, you have a fin edge.
I'm trying to be gentle here but on "that other" forum they would probably rip you to shreds. We aren't trying to mystify honing. On the contrary, many of us are trying hard to make it accessible to the masses. At least those masses that have an inclination to hone a razor.
BTW, what is an "angle finder"? That is a tool I am not acquainted with.
