open comb effeciency

[elieber]

Are open comb razors more efficient than closed comb razors? In other words, for the same density/thickness of hair, will an open comb razor cut through it more easily? I've used an EJ 89, tech, and blue tip and they always feel like they are pulling a little bit (tried a lot of different beard preps as well). Would a Gillette New be better on that dimension?

Thanks.

 

[Agravic]

The simple answer is YES!
OC are definitely more efficient than CC razors when presented with the same type and amount of stubble to slice.
They are wonderful razors for heavy or thick stubble as in my case.
With proper technique, they are user friendly as well. I would not necessarily recommend an OC to a first time DE shaver, but with a little CC experience and some respect for their dynamics, they can be wonderful.
All other variables being equal - I get BBS in 2 passes with an OC as compared to 3 passes with a CC razor.
Good luck and check out the BOTOC thread for some 'eye candy'

 

[Triad]

I think its a misconception that all open combs are aggressive i have closed combs more aggressive than some of the open combs. Same thing with the slant razors goes on too you hear people say its a blood thirsty monster lmao!! I guess it just depends who you talk to but there are aggressive and mild open and closed combs

 

[Go West Young Man]

No, they're just different.

 

[craig94yj]

I started DE shaving with a vintage TTO. I bought a Gillette New and was amazed at the shave results. I now use a Muhle R101 and I'm a huge fan of open combs.

 

[ALATRON]

Open combs are different that safety bars in the sense that the deciding factor of the the aggressiveness isn't the blade gap. It is the blade exposure and the angle. Everyone learns at a different curve. I had a hard time getting into open combs. Once I found the right one, I prefered them to safety bars. Less strokes and less irritation.

 

[TallyShave]

No, they're just different.

+1

 

[celestino]

It is tough to say. i think they are different, yes, but, personally, i find OCs a bit more effective for me. You should definitely try a New LC, but i would also suggest try one shim on your safety-bar DEs. You will be very surprised how much of a change your blade exposure gets in them and they become very effective and smooth shavers. All it takes is one shim! Good luck.

 

[MacDaddy]

I really don't see why people think that the construction of the guard has anything at all to do with the "aggression" of the razor. The geometry of head -- how far the blade extends beyond the plane created by the cap and guard edges, and the angle that the blade is held relative to that plane -- is what determines that. Unless you're bearing down so hard that your skin puckers up between the teeth of the comb (and if you're doing that you've obviously got larger problems) there just isn't any difference at all to the way the blade approaches your face.

Now, an open comb will create a different feeling shave than a guard bar. The teeth will have a different feel on your face and they'll allow more of the cream on your face to reach the razor. But as far as straight-up aggression goes whether the guard is a comb or a bar just doesn't make a difference.

 

[DEGuy]

OCs aren't necessarily more efficient than certain closed-comb razors. For example, Merkur's Progress is a real stubble cleaving machine. More efficient than an OC? It really depends on the OC. With many CC razors one can determine aggressiveness by the gap between the blade edge and the comb; also, blade arc and blade exposure are variables that should be taken into consideration. There really is no hard and fast answer other than it is razor dependent and dependent on a razor's variables. An adjustable CC razor can be made mild or super aggressive. As celestino states above, shimming a razor can make it more aggressive than in its non-shimmed state. It's really a personal choice and one and individual can make only by using different razors. And then there's matching the razor with an appropriate balde...

 

[MacDaddy]

With many CC razors one can determine aggressiveness by the gap between the blade edge and the comb; also, blade arc and blade exposure are variables that should be taken into consideration. There really is no hard and fast answer other than it is razor dependent and dependent on a razor's variables. An adjustable CC razor can be made mild or super aggressive. As celestino states above, shimming a razor can make it more aggressive than in its non-shimmed state.

The gap itself doesn't directly have anything to do with it; however, all other factors remaining constant, increasing the blade gap of a razor -- whether it's through adjustment or shimming -- increases the aggression of a razor by changing the angle of the plane between the cap and guard, which causes the blade to extend further beyond that plane. That is, it increases blade exposure. You could have two razors with significantly different blade gaps that had the same blade exposure. The razor with a larger gap would just have to have a wider guard so that the angle between the cap and guard stayed the same relative to the blade.

I'd love to do up a quick diagram, but it'll have to wait till morning when I'm at a proper computer.

 

[elieber]

Thanks for the replies everyone. If we weight responses by post count/stewardship, then it looks like OCs aren't inherently different from closed combs and what really matters is the exposure/angle of the blade as it crosses the skin. That makes sense, but it seems like there has to be some difference between the two to have warranted the shift from OCs to closed combs. If they're really the same on a fundamental level, why bother with closed comb technology?

 

[MacDaddy]

That makes sense, but it seems like there has to be some difference between the two to have warranted the shift from OCs to closed combs. If they're really the same on a fundamental level, why bother with closed comb technology?

Bending the teeth in the comb seems to have been a common complaint back in their day. Gillette beefed up the teeth substantially in going from the Old Type to the New Improved, and I would bet that that was a good part of the reason why. The guard bar would have been less likely to be damaged than the teeth of an open comb, so that's a selling point from the consumer's perspective. But I wonder, too, if it wasn't easier for Gillette to manufacture guard bar razors than open comb ones -- even if it just meant that they didn't have to worry as much when handling and moving the guard plates around the factory.

Back to your original question, I think most of what people are responding to is that, modern-day developments aside, razor head designs generally got milder over time, as blade technology improved and blades got sharper and longer-lasting. Open-comb designs tend to be older ones, from a time when men would have been more used to straight-razor shaving, and when they might have needed more aggression from the razor to coax good performance out of a blade. I think this is more what's at play when people talk about the difference between open-comb and guard-bar razors.

The closest direct comparison I can point to is the British NEW and NEW/Tech Hybrid (below). The only difference between them is that the NEW has had a comb guard milled out of that blank and the Hybrid a guard bar. Controlling for all other factors, i.e., using the same handles and even the same cap from one guard plate to the other (in case there are subtle geometry changes there), and trying to judge purely on "aggression" they're basically identical as far as I can tell. As I mentioned before, the different guards do create different feeling shaves -- I think the biggest factor comes from the way the comb allows most of the lather to reach the blade edge where the bar clears more of it away ahead of the blade -- but one is not more aggressive than the other.

 

[TallyShave]

It also needs to be stated that agressiveness does not simply equate to efficiency.

 

[mblakele]

But I wonder, too, if it wasn't easier for Gillette to manufacture guard bar razors than open comb ones

Absolutely! The claims for the main Tech patent make this clear. It meant that most machining work could be replaced with a simple stamping operation, and brass stock could be replaced with thin sheet metal. Stamped teeth are not very nice, but a stamped bar is fine. These changes were compelling because they saved both labor and material, and customers did not seem to mind. Along with strip-manufacturing for blades, the savings paved the way for Gillette to give away Tech handles, sell cheap blades for a healthy profit, and pour those profits into marketing, sales, and a smidgen of R&D. Replace DE with carts, and they are still at it.

I find it ironic that these innovations came largely from the Auto Strop patent fight and takeover. Without that disaster, the company might never have realized the full promise of King Camp's original idea.

 

[Johan]

Yes. Atleast for me the Open Comb design seems to be more effective. The New Long Comb shaves as close as a Red Tip but far more gentle for my skin. My Frankenrazor Fatip comb/Lord-top combination also works extremly well.

 

[BigBull]

Yes.

 

[MacDaddy]

Absolutely! The claims for the main Tech patent make this clear. It meant that most machining work could be replaced with a simple stamping operation, and brass stock could be replaced with thin sheet metal. Stamped teeth are not very nice, but a stamped bar is fine.

I hesitated to make that direct linkage when we're talking about "OC vs. Guard Bar" because of the '30s-era Aristocrat, Sheraton, and Senator. They're actually some of my favorites to use, and they'd still have had the benefits of the simplified stamped construction. That is, Gillette could have carried on making OC razors with stamped construction if there weren't any other reason to switch. I think you're basically still right, but there could have been other factors like dies for stamping out teeth wearing out quicker than simpler dies to stamp out gutter slots. Add to that any issues with teeth getting bent prior to QC and sale, etc.

 

[Go West Young Man]

Also, Gillette would repair bent/damaged/broken teeth under the razor's warranty. It seems that after a while they figured out how much that was costing and eliminated the problem all at once.

 

[alex2363]

I really don't see why people think that the construction of the guard has anything at all to do with the "aggression" of the razor. The geometry of head -- how far the blade extends beyond the plane created by the cap and guard edges, and the angle that the blade is held relative to that plane -- is what determines that. Unless you're bearing down so hard that your skin puckers up between the teeth of the comb (and if you're doing that you've obviously got larger problems) there just isn't any difference at all to the way the blade approaches your face.

Now, an open comb will create a different feeling shave than a guard bar. The teeth will have a different feel on your face and they'll allow more of the cream on your face to reach the razor. But as far as straight-up aggression goes whether the guard is a comb or a bar just doesn't make a difference.

Listen to the man here.....true points.