Nice razor, Oli!
I don't see any tape. How did you get such a narrow bevel reveal? Did you use tape?
I don't see any tape. How did you get such a narrow bevel reveal? Did you use tape?
One stone Hard Ark 'Progression'
- Thread starter cotedupy
- Start date
What?!? You tried a straight shave after a trip to the pub? You've got a death wish, dontcha? What's next, a test shave while jumping the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle?
In addition to the things you mentioned, how many passes I do plays a role. Diamond feels great for the first two, for me, but it starts to aggressively exfoliate after that. I do think there's a difference between a quick strop to calm an edge vs. a full "method" progression.
@cotedupy have you tried using a really soft washita or turkey stone as a rub stone? It works and that slurry will break down with use. I've not done a razor this way but plenty of knives. The slurry probably wouldn't breakdown with a razor because of lack of pressure but doing circles with a knife with some pressure will break it down. Especially if you're using really friable novaculite.
Awww come on, I usually shave after a couple or 8 drinks. Sometimes it steadied the hand.What?!? You tried a straight shave after a trip to the pub? You've got a death wish, dontcha? What's next, a test shave while jumping the Grand Canyon on a motorcycle?
- Thread starter
- #26
Ta! Yeah I think one's going to become a firm favourite.
No tape, no. I just got very lucky with the razor I think. TBH I'm not particularly good with particularly tricky, bothersome or confusing bevel sets, so I was potentially setting myself up for a fail here. But happily it turned out to be a doddle.
Haha... nah it was the honing last night when I was a slightly 'merry'. Shave this morning I was sober, albeit somewhat hungover.
Good point! I've used Turkish a bit, but not Washies.
Now that you mention - I imagine they might actually work in this kind of razor situation too. The slurry should break down just fine I think; firstly because slurry from a Turkish should be finer than that from a 400 grit atoma-ed hard ark, but also the whole 'break down' thing isn't really about particles actually breaking into smaller bits, it's more to do with them rounding out.
I'll certainly have to try this on a razor in the future.
For sure the abrasives round out but if you raise a slurry on that isn't friable it takes a lot of wear to get them to round out without pressure. I've used soft washitas to build slurry on hard fine ones as well. If you find one of those magic soft ones you can do all kinds of cool stuff with them.Ta! Yeah I think one's going to become a firm favourite.
No tape, no. I just got very lucky with the razor I think. TBH I'm not particularly good with particularly tricky, bothersome or confusing bevel sets, so I was potentially setting myself up for a fail here. But happily it turned out to be a doddle.
Haha... nah it was the honing last night when I was a slightly 'merry'. Shave this morning I was sober, albeit somewhat hungover.
Good point! I've used Turkish a bit, but not Washies.
Now that you mention - I imagine they might actually work in this kind of razor situation too. The slurry should break down just fine I think; firstly because slurry from a Turkish should be finer than that from a 400 grit atoma-ed hard ark, but also the whole 'break down' thing isn't really about particles actually breaking into smaller bits, it's more to do with them rounding out.
I'll certainly have to try this on a razor in the future.
- Thread starter
- #28
Yeah, I think those 3 things were pretty much exactly what I was hoping to find out about. Some further thoughts...
1.) Actually I didn't really doubt this one. Atoma-raised novaculite slurry is pretty much as fast as you can get, it's probably even quicker than Coti slurry. I might have used a touch more pressure than I would have on a full hollow, but bevel set would've been pretty quick either way.
2.) If it was just a matter of diluting slurry then I dunno, but the fact you're also going from a roughed surface through to a polished one doubles down on the 'progression' aspect. That was my thinking anyway, and seemed to work. The side of the stone I used is now noticeably more polished and shiny than the other surface.
3.) Certainly was a bit harsh after the quick 10 or 12 min honing run out last night. But I'd be optimistic that if I spend the same time again this evening at a kinda pre-finishing & finishing level then I should be able to get to a very nice, slightly more comfortable edge... fingers crossed!
I'd be curious how it looks under a scope... ark "slurry" is nasty stuff. Not at all surprised it cuts a bevel like a 1k... dilucotting on an ark though would explain the sharp but harsh feeling you got... Id lay money that you highly polished a 1k edge, missing a lot of midwork. Try a 1k synth to 10 minutes on a nonslurried ark with the same pressure/technique you used here I'm guessing you get about the same shave, maybe better.
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- #30
Yeah possibly. Though as I said - this is a slightly unusual hard ark, with a significantly larger range than normal, so hopefully that might help a bit. I'll report back after trying again later.
Given what you've said there - this time I might try it sans slurry, just going from a roughed surface to a smooth one and see if that helps do the mid-range.
- Thread starter
- #31
I did try this razor on the ark a couple more times, and each time it got a little smoother, but was still slightly erring on the sharply aggressive side of things. And tamed noticeably by then putting it on a different prefinisher + finisher subsequently. So FWIW, my conclusion (drawn from a sample size of one) is...
You can use a slurried translucent Arkansas to set the bevel on a razor very happily, in fact it's probably up there with the quickest natural stones for it. And you can obviously use one to finish a razor to a very high level too. But using dilutions perhaps doesn't bridge the gaps as effectively as it does with some other kinds of stone.
I have used novaculite slurry dilutions to go from mid range work to finish quite effectively, but it's a very long and gradual process because the initial slurry so aggressive.
So here perhaps is an unusual, but on paper probably quite effective, do-all honing setup: Translucent Arkansas + Coticule slurry stone.
You can use a slurried translucent Arkansas to set the bevel on a razor very happily, in fact it's probably up there with the quickest natural stones for it. And you can obviously use one to finish a razor to a very high level too. But using dilutions perhaps doesn't bridge the gaps as effectively as it does with some other kinds of stone.
I have used novaculite slurry dilutions to go from mid range work to finish quite effectively, but it's a very long and gradual process because the initial slurry so aggressive.
So here perhaps is an unusual, but on paper probably quite effective, do-all honing setup: Translucent Arkansas + Coticule slurry stone.
In my opinion, novaculite slurry is harmful to the razor's edge. they are particles that do not gradually shatter as in Japanese stones. The result is a sharp edge, but certainly uncomfortable when shaving, because the edge is like saw teeth. For this I would leave this practice for chisels or gouges.
A fine tomonagura would really help get your Frankenstein rock party going.
I've done similar with a really friable washita or a turkey stone but honestly I hate using diamond plate slurry because the diamonds cut the abrasives and change the character of the abrasive and it make it hard for me to get a trading on the stone. My eyesight is bad and I don't use magnification so novaculite slurry throws me for a loop but it's good on knives for sure.
This way is the only way I know how to do this right. Spit and a half case of beer. Kinda like flattening a really out of whack charnwood.Ian used to do this back in the day, but he didn’t use slurry, he just leaned on it like a man. He had some videos up on his channel I’ll see if I can find them. @SliceOfLife
100% agree. I never got the whole "arks are slow" meme. They completely overtook and dominated the whetstone market until synths were perfected and the demand for arks haven't dropped a bit. They became popular because of their speed. They do like pressure but they'll cut most stiff. I think people over prep their surface. 400-600# and quick run with a coticule and you'll smooth it plenty without making it near useless. In my opinion all novaculite is pretty quick if you know how to use it/ rough it up a little.
Not hard to see how that idea got started. I could imagine having started it myself. Back when I was in summer camp, one of the counselors would periodically take out his pocketknife and lovingly sharpen it on what I now know was a hard ark. It was deeply curved from much use. Sharpening his little knife would take him a half hour. I am 100% sure that the stone surface was never, ever conditioned. The sheer amount of labor involved, to touch up such a small knife, put me off the idea of sharpening for years, until my first stone, a King 800, gave me a very different idea of how long sharpening something should take.
This is why I like hard washitas for the "one stone ark" bevel set>finish. They might be hard but they are still semi friable and will turn grit loose. Id rather a light touch on one of them than a firm grind on a black ark. I've shaved off several that were surprisingly decent.
Wasn't this how SRs were sharpened in the old days when shavers had just one natural stone before the trend to stone progression and before the advent of synthetics?
- Thread starter
- #40
Yep, certainly to some extent. Though it might have been more common with cotis for instance rather than hard arks.
