Let's talk about steam.

[catherix]

Calling all the brush restore experts!! Put the Dremel down and cap your epoxy gents! It's time to provide a little guidance and maybe setup a quick resource to the other restorers out there.

Steam? Heat? Double boiler? Yes all that.

You see, in my time playing around in our little subforum I've read far too many horror stories about folks ruining their handles and knots by attempting to use steam to remove the knots. It hurts to see and hear about and I would love to see an end to it!! No more ruined handles!! No more melted branding!!

I'm hoping we can gather some experiences from the experts here on when it works, when it doesn't, and what the best ways are to go about it. Please post your experiences here and when I have time I will compile a reference list/table/chart of the information for other restorers to use.

 

[catherix]

I'll get this started with a scenario somewhere in the middle. Here's one with a modern brush where the steaming did no real damage but it also did not get the knot out. Frustrating, and easy to continue too far into the steaming process and ruin the whole deal. Luckily I had some restraint and still use this brush on occasion today. Some links for reference:

The original thread
A follow up thread

You see, I have an AoS Fine Badger brush from a pricey kit I bought when I first started wet shaving. My goal was to remove the knot and then modify the handle to set it lower. Like a modded AoS brush. Thought it was a cool idea, still do actually, but I could never get it to work. The process caused absolutely no harm to the handle and IMO it did not harm the knot either. Modern acrylic, modern silkscreened(I think) branding, and modern adhesive = no cigar.

 

[Snargle]

Thanks for starting this thread, Tyler. I think this is a discussion that's definitely needed. They don't make vintage brush handles any more and I'd hate to see them ruined by restorers using a destructive method of knot removal!

From my own experience, I've never tried a steam/hot water knot removal and probably never will. I prefer to take my chances with a Dremel and hand tools.

 

[GDCarrington]

Here is the issue with steam.

It works well on more modern acrylic handles where glues are used to secure the knot. I will expound glue and epoxy shortly.

Steam with wood. Wood warps under steam. That is the process of how wood is bent into curved shapes for woodworking.

Early Catlin and Early Thermoplastics have major issues with steam. High Temperatures can cause instability in these older materials that were not designed to be reheated a 180 degrees F and higher. Even if the handles did not have aging issues which could generate weak spots and / or cracking the materials can and do distort under the heat.

Modern Acrylics are made to stand up to heat because they are the same or very similar to compounds used in epoxies.

Now to why epoxied in knots are not good candidates for steam.

"Epoxy adhesives are a major part of the class of adhesives called "structural adhesives" or "engineering adhesives" (that includes polyurethane, acrylic, cyanoacrylate, and other chemistries.) These high-performance adhesives are used in the construction of aircraft, automobiles, bicycles, boats, golf clubs, skis, snowboards, and other applications where high strength bonds are required. Epoxy adhesives can be developed to suit almost any application. They can be used as adhesives for wood, metal, glass, stone, and some plastics. They can be made flexible or rigid, transparent or opaque/colored, fast setting or slow setting. Epoxy adhesives are better in heat and chemical resistance than other common adhesives. In general, epoxy adhesives cured with heat will be more heat- and chemical-resistant than those cured at room temperature. The strength of epoxy adhesives is degraded at temperatures above 350 °F (177 °C).[SUP][7][/SUP]"
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy
Source: Morena, John J (1988). Advanced Composite Mold Making. New York: Van Nostrand Reinhold Co. Inc. pp. 124–125. ISBN 978-0-442-26414-7.
​

Glue has a much lower melting point than epoxy so it is easier to remove a knot with steam because the glue gives way easier at 180 deg F.

An for those with plaster as the knot setting base. Here is the difference with a modern acrylic with a knot set in glue and an vintage thermoplastic set in plaster.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...-Some-Restoration-Story?p=4075201#post4075201

I hope this helps the discussion.

 

[catherix]

Larry
I too prefer the manual methods to removing a knot. It also allows me to work on the knot hole and the walls of the brush if needed while removing the knot. With a Dremel and careful patience I am able to make knot removal and interior cleanout of the handle one step.

Gary
Definitely helpful my friend. I was hoping you would stop by. That thread is another great resource to pull from and show what happens when steaming goes bad, and when it works properly. That Parker brush pulled through unscathed with its modern plastic, whereas the EverReady did not fair as well. Quite the result and it should be helpful to others when considering their options for removing the knot.

 

[brother cavefish]

heck no, no steam , quit looking for an easy way ---just cut it out and take your time

 

[catherix]

I haven't checked into my thread but it looks like we have a few links and stories. Any others out there with some experience, good or bad, with steam??

 

[RUSHd]

I just used the steam method for the first time on three old brushes. Worked perfectly - the knots popped right out with barely any residue left in the handle. I guess I have some knot shopping to do.

 

[Snargle]

I just used the steam method for the first time on three old brushes. Worked perfectly - the knots popped right out with barely any residue left in the handle. I guess I have some knot shopping to do.

Details please? What specific brushes? What is the handle material? Modern plastics, 1960s and later, or the old stuff from early-to-mid 20th century?

 

[mblakele]

Here is one experience: I used a bamboo steamer on a modern brush with a resin handle from Penworks that is identical to a Rooney 3/1 faux ivory. The handle was fine, but the glue in the knot failed before the epoxy did. That was no tragedy, because I was reknotting anyway.



Another experiment was with a Boreal 322. The knot was a shedder so again I was looking to reknot the handle. It was cheap plastic, and the steam caused some hairline cracks to widen. So it was a loss too. Here is the handle before I steamed it. You might be able to make out one of the cracks, running right through the Boreal lettering.

 

[catherix]

I just used the steam method for the first time on three old brushes. Worked perfectly - the knots popped right out with barely any residue left in the handle. I guess I have some knot shopping to do.

Thanks for the reply rush! Glad to see its working in some ways. Do you happen to have pics or a thread we can include? If you have the chance I would love some pics or details on the brushes and materials so I can add to the info so far.

 

[catherix]

Here is one experience: I used a bamboo steamer on a modern brush with a resin handle from Penworks that is identical to a Rooney 3/1 faux ivory. The handle was fine, but the glue in the knot failed before the epoxy did. That was no tragedy, because I was reknotting anyway.



Another experiment was with a Boreal 322. The knot was a shedder so again I was looking to reknot the handle. It was cheap plastic, and the steam caused some hairline cracks to widen. So it was a loss too. Here is the handle before I steamed it. You might be able to make out one of the cracks, running right through the Boreal lettering.

Thanks for the reply mblakele! Did you happen to post threads on these? Did the first knot there fall apart after the steaming? Sorta sounded like that might be what happened but just wanted to check with you. Sorry for the 20 questions.

 

[RUSHd]

Details please? What specific brushes? What is the handle material? Modern plastics, 1960s and later, or the old stuff from early-to-mid 20th century?

I should have clarified that by old, I meant older of the brushes I've owned - not OLD.

Van der hagen boar (white handle)
Van der hagen badger (black handle from the "luxury" set)
Royalshave best badger

Granted the first two are not top of the line. I'm not sure any of these used epoxy, so your results may vary. Definitely was a satisfying feeling popping them out on the first try though.

Related note - anyone know the knot size of the two Van der hagens?

 

[catherix]

Not sure about the sizes on the VDH brushes. Does anyone happen to know what the royal shave brush is made of?

 

[mblakele]

Thanks for the reply mblakele! Did you happen to post threads on these? Did the first knot there fall apart after the steaming? Sorta sounded like that might be what happened but just wanted to check with you. Sorry for the 20 questions.

Nothing in any great detail, for either brush, no.

The Boreal was already a shedder, or whatever the right term is to describe a boar knot that sheds constantly and loses clumps of bristles at irregular intervals. It featured in http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/208654-Is-my-brush-shedding with some more photos.

 

[catherix]

Nothing in any great detail, for either brush, no.

The Boreal was already a shedder, or whatever the right term is to describe a boar knot that sheds constantly and loses clumps of bristles at irregular intervals. It featured in http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/208654-Is-my-brush-shedding with some more photos.

Thank you sir. That brush sure looked like a bad shedder. Or clumped shedder. Or something. That was a neat handle though.

Thanks for digging and finding that thread. I appreciate it.

 

[Snargle]

I should have clarified that by old, I meant older of the brushes I've owned - not OLD.

Van der hagen boar (white handle)
Van der hagen badger (black handle from the "luxury" set)
Royalshave best badger

Granted the first two are not top of the line. I'm not sure any of these used epoxy, so your results may vary. Definitely was a satisfying feeling popping them out on the first try though.

Related note - anyone know the knot size of the two Van der hagens?

Thanks for the additional information, RUSHd. That tends to confirm my belief that steam seems to be relatively safe for newer brushes made from modern plastics. I still consider it somewhat of a risky process, one that I'm not willing to take on any brush that I really care about.

As far as the knot size for the VDH (or any brushes), just measure the diameter (in millimeters) of the now-empty hole of the handle. You'll probably want a knot a millimeter or two smaller than the hole, as it will be a very tight fit unless you're willing to enlarge the hole with grinding or sanding. A vernier caliper is an desirable tool for measuring, but you can probably get away with just eyeballing it with a ruler.

 

[Chaloney]

I read in a thread on another site that the vdh boar is 22 mm.

 

[GDCarrington]

Not sure about the sizes on the VDH brushes. Does anyone happen to know what the royal shave brush is made of?

Polyurethane / Synthetic Rubber. Those are some I would recommend using steam.
I have busted a couple of these down and they are around 23-24 mm. I have placed a 25 mm in one with no problems and barely had to do any expansion.

 

[Dave Colangelo]

I steamed the knot out of a clear acrylic Made Rite I bought recently. The process was very efficient for getting the knot out but softened the acrylic enough that the pressed text on the bottom liquified enough that the deep cut letters became barely visible. This was upsetting as I was looking forward to painting them. Other than that the handle did not deform at all. On any note I will never steam a brush again after that.

Regards
Dave