Just can't get a decent edge off of any other hone

[Dilbone]

Dilbone I’d like to propose the following:
You shouldn’t necessarily be able to shave well off any Coticule...
Not being able to shave off any random Coticule shouldn’t be a metric by which anyone’s honing should be measured. I’m sorry but someone needs to say it. There’s too much variance from stone to stone for anyone to suggest that any Coticule edge would be just like another.
What I’ve done is put my Coticules in sort of a progression so I get the best of each.
As for your jnat? Again, if you can’t shave off it then stick it somewhere else in a sequence.
I’m not trying to sound judgmental but I feel that many in the honing world are buying let’s say 3 stones in an attempt to find the Blarney Sone! I would suggest that rather than looking for an ultimate finisher we should consider using troublesome stones in a different way. They will most likely serve you quite well in fact but just at a different stage. Even my “best” Coticule struggles to shave well after a 5k. But if I follow that 5k with my #7 bout, my #8 Dressante bout, & then my unmarked 130X70mm the razor shaves great. I find it fascinating how well these 3 stones play together. But when I had originally bought these I was hoping that each would have been “the stone”. But these stones in the right sequence produce a uniqueness that a single stone may or may not be able to offer.

Thanks lightfoot. I think you hit the nail on the head for what I'm discovering right now.

 

[Alum of Potash]

Just so I understand you both correctly. I should go back to my King 6k for a hand full or 2 of laps before embarking on my next variable change with a given stone? That's a fresh enough place to "start over" for finishing only tests?

A purple welsh slate is another stone I've thought about picking up just for kicks.

Well, I'm another guy who finds that a coticule edge is generally not enough for my beard, hence the purple slate afterwards. As for going back rather than killing the edge, generally I retrace my steps until I get what I need which in this case, working backwards recently would be purple Welsh slate > coticule > 5k Eden > 2k Eden > 1k Eden. Yet a problem arises when one is changing the line-up. For example, a few weeks ago, I recall going from a purple Welsh slate down to a coticule before going back up to a mystery slate I wanted to try out, and someone took me to task for not going low enough--i.e., down to the 5k synth--before moving back up, basically, under the idea that the coticule wasn't enough to wipe out all of the the Welsh slate's prior properties or something like that. Doesn't really bother me though, as the edge is what I was after. I can always go down to the 5k when the time comes. One thing that is simple in my case is that the 5k will put a shine on the bevel quite unlike the coticule, and there I would know that it has been completely reworked. I would imagine that the 6k King would work in a similar way, whereas the coticule (and Arkansas) bevel is typically hazier.

 

[Seveneighth]

Horses for courses. Some coticules seem to work well in the bevel set to 5k range others from that point to finish.

I have a la petite blanche and a soft Ardennes select that work well for setting and polishing out a bevel, and a la grise that is a phenomenal finisher. I have a La Veinette that can do everything, but overall I still get the best finish on my La Grise.

I know the desire is a single stone to achieve everything but 2 stones is surely an acceptable compromise.

I wouldn't finish on a Dalmore Blue or try to set a bevel on a Water of Ayre.It doesn't mean either is a better stone than the other. I need both, and I prize both for different jobs.

 

[Dilbone]

I've gotten a couple of decent shaves with my pearl king from the black ark this week, but I could tell it just wasn't as sharp as coming off the TSS coti. I decided to put that pearl king through the business on said TSS coti. I did 60laps on plain water, 30 under running water, 30 on Hoppes #9 gun oil, 80laps on linen firehose, 80 on leather.

The shave this morning was fantastic. Sooooo much keener than any edge I've ever had straight off the stones. No desire to hit the crox whatsoever.

At this point, the ark is for knives, the new coti is on its way out, the Nani 12k is out, the jnat I'll keep because it's so dang fast and gets an edge ready for the TSS coti really easily, the TSS coti is a magical rock that I'd cry if I lost, and finally the King 1k and 6k I'll keep in case I ever need them.

I think I'm done chasing "that" edge, whatever "that" is...at least for now.

 

[alx gilmore]

Congratulations!!!!!

 

[Rugger007]

I've gotten a couple of decent shaves with my pearl king from the black ark this week, but I could tell it just wasn't as sharp as coming off the TSS coti. I decided to put that pearl king through the business on said TSS coti. I did 60laps on plain water, 30 under running water, 30 on Hoppes #9 gun oil, 80laps on linen firehose, 80 on leather.

The shave this morning was fantastic. Sooooo much keener than any edge I've ever had straight off the stones. No desire to hit the crox whatsoever.

At this point, the ark is for knives, the new coti is on its way out, the Nani 12k is out, the jnat I'll keep because it's so dang fast and gets an edge ready for the TSS coti really easily, the TSS coti is a magical rock that I'd cry if I lost, and finally the King 1k and 6k I'll keep in case I ever need them.

I think I'm done chasing "that" edge, whatever "that" is...at least for now.

Congrats on finding “the” edge. Now that you have found it, I’d keep one blade that way and really start to experiment and try to learn your other hones. Definitely don’t give up on the Ark, once you unlock it the edges will be sublime.

 

[lightfoot]

I would hate to see you get rid of the Coticule that you aren’t having any luck with because you may be able to use it between bevel set and your other working Coticule.

 

[Dilbone]

Congratulations!!!!!

Congrats on finding “the” edge. Now that you have found it, I’d keep one blade that way and really start to experiment and try to learn your other hones. Definitely don’t give up on the Ark, once you unlock it the edges will be sublime.

Thanks Gents, I think I made it sound like this one edge on the pearl king was the best ever, what I meant to say is that all of the edges so far that I've taken from various other stones(my "new" old coti, jnat, and ark) straight to the TSS coti for 60ish on water, 30-40 under running water, and 30-40 on either mineral or hoppes #9 gun oil have ALL been fantastic edges...keen enough to not need crox and very smooth. I don't think it really matters which stone(even the King 6k)I use before the TSS coti. The under running water while finishing on oil has been the difference for me. This along with the fact that I've also recently(the past few weeks) begun to hone with stone in hand and only one hand on the razor. Up to that point I would hone on a little table keeping a finger from my left hand on the toe of my razor to keep contact with the stone and guide the razor. I think by doing so I've been unable to really use ultra light barely weight of the razor pressure while honing. It seems that the combination of these 3 things has brought me here.

I would hate to see you get rid of the Coticule that you aren’t having any luck with because you may be able to use it between bevel set and your other working Coticule.

If the jnat wasn't so fast at doing the same thing I would agree and at first I thought that's what I would do. I've done the same on both stones and the jnat I feel is much better for that...and I think I can probably get more out of the coti than what I have in it right now if I let it go.

 

[Dilbone]

Recently I took another favorite of mine, my Gold Dollar contest razor from a couple of years ago, which had previously been taken from the TSS coti to the crox on balsa. I took it to the coti on plain water for 60, 40 under running water, and 40 on oil. I shaved and it didn't seem all that great. Not keen enough and certainly not as smooth as what I'd had from all the other blades I've done this to. I thought maybe I had reached the end of my luck on this "New Method" for me that was working.

I decided I needed to "start over" with this blade. I raised a slurry on the little Kiita jnat and did some circles on it until I had a nice hazy uniform bevel decreasing the pressure as I went and diluting down to just a misty slurry with x-strokes. After this I went with my TSS coti method. 60 on plain water with decreasing pressure, 40 under running water, 40 on oil, 80 on linen, 70 on leather. Shave test...and there it is...it worked again.

 

[Dilbone]

Seemed like this thread needed some pics.
The GD I just honed the other day with the Kiita and TSS Coti

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[Dilbone]

After continuing to get great results off the TSS coti following either mineral or hoppes #9 oil I decided I wanted to see if the Jnat edge on this particular stone could be pushed to a greater level of keenness like the oil on coti provides. I had actually done a split shave yesterday with a blade honed on the TSS coti and the other honed using the AxMethod on the Jnat. I actually took a blade back to my King 6k and did enough laps to "reset" it from the naniwa 12k it had previously been finished on then I went to the Jnat using the 10-5-3-2-1 half lap AxMethod. I ended up needing 4 or 5 repetitions of the cycle before I felt like I got where I needed to be. The split shave followed so I could compare this jnat edge to the coti edge that I find to be just barely to an acceptable level of keenness, but very comfortable. Both blade provided a very comfortable shave. The coti edge just still seemed to have a bit more sharpness to it.

I started to wonder if a jnat could be used for a few final laps with mineral oil like I do with the coti so I did some quick searching and found most guys saying NOOOOOOOOOOO oil on a jnat.
Ok, I won't. I did see a few references to Smith's honing solution(which I think is a glycerin water soluble solution), lather, and glycerin. Well I have all three of those at my disposal so I decide to try some glycerin. I wet the stone, no slurry, and drip 3 or so drops of glycerin on it. I spread it around and did 1 more set of the AxMethod 10-5-3-2-1 half laps, 40 on linen, 60 leather and shaved.

Definitely keener than before the glycerin and still very smooth. I am very happy to finally be getting similar edges off of something other than the TSS coti.

 

[Seveneighth]

After continuing to get great results off the TSS coti following either mineral or hoppes #9 oil I decided I wanted to see if the Jnat edge on this particular stone could be pushed to a greater level of keenness like the oil on coti provides. I had actually done a split shave yesterday with a blade honed on the TSS coti and the other honed using the AxMethod on the Jnat. I actually took a blade back to my King 6k and did enough laps to "reset" it from the naniwa 12k it had previously been finished on then I went to the Jnat using the 10-5-3-2-1 half lap AxMethod. I ended up needing 4 or 5 repetitions of the cycle before I felt like I got where I needed to be. The split shave followed so I could compare this jnat edge to the coti edge that I find to be just barely to an acceptable level of keenness, but very comfortable. Both blade provided a very comfortable shave. The coti edge just still seemed to have a bit more sharpness to it.

I started to wonder if a jnat could be used for a few final laps with mineral oil like I do with the coti so I did some quick searching and found most guys saying NOOOOOOOOOOO oil on a jnat.
Ok, I won't. I did see a few references to Smith's honing solution(which I think is a glycerin water soluble solution), lather, and glycerin. Well I have all three of those at my disposal so I decide to try some glycerin. I wet the stone, no slurry, and drip 3 or so drops of glycerin on it. I spread it around and did 1 more set of the AxMethod 10-5-3-2-1 half laps, 40 on linen, 60 leather and shaved.

Definitely keener than before the glycerin and still very smooth. I am very happy to finally be getting similar edges off of something other than the TSS coti.

Nice result!

 

[Dilbone]

I've continued to use my little Kiita then coti to get some great edges. Some razors I've gone to the King 6k for a bit to make sure everything is set and ready to proceed before moving on to the jnat, however some of my results have been "off" a little. I have found that skipping the under running water with the coti doesn't seem to give me poor results. I've had some of the keenest edges going straight from light laps with water only to mineral oil on the coti for the last 50ish laps.

However I have had a few razors lately that once doing what has become my "normal" progression still don't have the keen edge I've been getting.

My normal is: circles on jnat, from 1 up to 4 "ax method" sets of half laps(until I'm getting some decent HHT action), water on coti with a bit of pressure and easing off, coti with oil for final ultra light laps.

I'll have to go back and repeat this process a couple of times until I finally hit it just right. I don't know what I'm doing wrong at any point along the way, but sometimes it works and sometimes I have to go back and repeat. I've even hit those with crox on cotton strop and while I get a bump in keenness I take a couple of steps backward in comfort.

My latest discovery was last night. I decided I wanted to try baby oil instead of straight mineral oil since it is quite a bit thinner. The mineral oil is just so thick it's like I've undercut all of the oil off the surface of the coti within the first few laps. The baby oil seems to keep a decent slick of oil all over the surface a I hone...much nicer. I took a razor that wasn't quite where I wanted it after doing my "normal" routine and went straight to the coti with baby oil...no water only laps first. I did a set of 60 laps, then another 30 followed by another 30 ultra ultra light and slow laps. It may have been the keenest edge off that coti I've ever had. Like, it bit me today twice level of keen. Now, I was rushed which I know was a major factor but usually my coti edge won't bite too badly even when it seems nice and sharp.

I am looking forward to a couple more shaves with this razor to see if maybe I am on to something...and also trying another razor that I've been struggling with on the baby oil to see if more laps on oil are making a difference.

 

[life2short1971]

Are you using mineral oil from like a pharmacy thats thats as thick as say 90w motor oil or thin such as norton honing oil? The thin stuff works really well. I would also like to suggest getting a black or translucent Arky from Naturalwhetstones.com and preferably a long stone like 8” or more so you you don’t have to do so many short laps.
I have one and prefer the edge over jnats. I use mine after a coticule but you can also go back to the coticule after the arky as well if you so desire for a few laps.
If you would like your welcome to send me a blade and I’ll hone it for you so you can see if it is right for you without spending any money other than postage.

 

[Dilbone]

Are you using mineral oil from like a pharmacy thats thats as thick as say 90w motor oil or thin such as norton honing oil? The thin stuff works really well. I would also like to suggest getting a black or translucent Arky from Naturalwhetstones.com and preferably a long stone like 8” or more so you you don’t have to do so many short laps.
I have one and prefer the edge over jnats. I use mine after a coticule but you can also go back to the coticule after the arky as well if you so desire for a few laps.
If you would like your welcome to send me a blade and I’ll hone it for you so you can see if it is right for you without spending any money other than postage.

I started with Hoppes #9 gun oil then to straight mineral from the pharm now to baby oil.

I actually already have a black ark from Dan's that I haven't gotten great results from yet. I get it out from time to time to try again but I haven't for a while. I might try it with the baby oil and see how it goes. Thanks for the offer though!

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[life2short1971]

When you got the dans stone did you lap it with SiC powder to at leasr 800 grit then burnish the surface of the stone with a heavy knife or a chisel before using with razors?

 

[Dilbone]

I used a ton of w/d paper, then my king 1k, then my norton 8k, followed by chisels-knives- and junk razors for burnishing.

Then back to repeat thinking maybe I hadn't gotten it flat enough...I got tired of dealing with it so I said "it's good enough" or I just won't use it. I actually had a primitive that was 4" wide and nearly 8" long. I cut it down the long way to get a 2.25" and 1.75" with the wider of the 2 for razors and the narrower one for knives.

Here's the link to that thread if you're curious about my journey with my black ark. It probably isn't where it needs to be and I've decided I'm just not willing to spend the time on it that would be needed to get it "right" so that it will work with razors. Pocket knives...it's fantastic!!!

 

[life2short1971]

Do you remember if it started to slurry when you used it or did it get more reflective with use?

 

[life2short1971]

I quickly skinned your thread.(tldr) and from what I could see it looked like you had gotten it ipretty close if your reflective pics were dry not wet.
If you would like your welcome to send me the stone if you haven’t already had someone else try it and give you their opinion of the stone.
Not every black or translucent is good for razors. Especially if they are too soft. Sorry to hear of the time spent and you can’t use it. After using it for 100 laps the bevel should be as shiny as a Shapton pro 12k.

 

[paintflinger]

@Dilbone, if you're just trying different finishing stones, I wouldn't kill the edge if it doesn't need it. Seems unnecessary.

With regards to the jnat, the only thing I could point out is that water content matters (too dry/wet) and it can take awhile to break down the slurry. While not all Kiita koppas are the same, if yours is anything like mine, it is a fantastic pre-finisher and can finish a very comfy edge if you take the time and pay attention to the undercut (may take a slurry or 3). I would not finish on just water with a jnat.