Oh I know it wasn't from hatanaka. They didn't lap the stone sides and then stamp. Yes his stamps are not legit. They are allowed, but since he lies about the origin they are false. Where did the January pics come from? He has been selling 330 mate stones lately on ebay too. He basically told me 330mate was a criminal and his stones were no good.
Jnats- A treatise on Stamps and Kawa
- Thread starter alex1921
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #22
That pic is from Japan, not 330mate. The stone was sold as Nakayama suita. I think that's the reason why some people are happy with his stones, he stamps everything that gets in his hands and some times those stones are good. Unfortunately for the buyers there are instances where the stone sold doesnt look like the one advertised, I copied pics from a foreign forum where they had a similar discussion. These were listed on Ebay but removed when the buyer showed interest and sold directly thus bypassing the auction. Buyer beware.
Yeah I have talked with a number of people and read some foreign forums. The Russians don't seem to like him. The stones bought from his site earlier on cheap most have been very happy with. I think as for pics most sellers alter their pics to sell stones. I have only seen one or two who didn't. I have bought from a fan favorite on here and the stone was brown not bright yellow like the pics. He does pull stones from ebay if others are interested all the time.
My question about where the January pic came from has to do with his source. He tells different stories to different people. He says he has bought warehouses full of stones in Japan and that he has the largest stockpile in all of Japan. Lies of course. If this was true why would you sell stones with 330mate stamps on the side.
I have seen ever type of stone over time some old stock some from barbershop some with others stamps. So I don't think these are coming from some giant warehouse like he says. Some are really good old stock and very nice in use and color, but he takes all pic wet and I am sure alters photos. His prices in the beginning were worth the gamble and paid off well for some, but now his prices are way to high to justify the risk and pretty boxes don't make stones worth hundreds more. His ebay is a shame and mostly his junk stones.
My question about where the January pic came from has to do with his source. He tells different stories to different people. He says he has bought warehouses full of stones in Japan and that he has the largest stockpile in all of Japan. Lies of course. If this was true why would you sell stones with 330mate stamps on the side.
I have seen ever type of stone over time some old stock some from barbershop some with others stamps. So I don't think these are coming from some giant warehouse like he says. Some are really good old stock and very nice in use and color, but he takes all pic wet and I am sure alters photos. His prices in the beginning were worth the gamble and paid off well for some, but now his prices are way to high to justify the risk and pretty boxes don't make stones worth hundreds more. His ebay is a shame and mostly his junk stones.
The names or words and images discussed as the ink stamps: Maruichi, Nakayama, Hatanaka & Maruka often get grouped up together as interchangeable, and often interjected into discussions about authentic Nakayama Mine stones.
Stones that were actually harvested from the property owned by the Kato family are by definition the only true Nakayama stones.
The Maruich Company is not associated with any other company, especially not the other families included in this posting. This Maruichi is a small private retailer working out of his house in Kyoto and he mainly sells at Kyoto flea markets. The father died many years ago now the son is liquidating stones stock. Maru translates as "circle" ichi means "one".
Nakayama is simply the name of a mine property owned by the Kato family. Naka means "middle" yama means "mountain".
Hatanaka Company was owned by the Hatanaka family who had a retail store in Kyoto which is now closed. The Hatanaka family were originally from Osaka and they are not blood relatives of the Kato family. Their only relationship with the Kato family was a professional one, that of landlord and tenant. The Hatanaka family yearly paid for the retaining of certain mineral rights as a fee to the Kato family and with that fee was included the use of the Maruka stamp.
The name Maruka is basically a Logo designed by the man Kato who was owner of the Nakayama Mine which he inherited from his grandfather and father. Here is the the actual original source of the Maruka Logo. Kato-san's actual hardhat as it rests in the workshop on the Nakayama mine property.
Maru means "circle", ka refers to the first syllable of the family name of Kato. Kato-san invented and designed the Maruka stamp and the Kato family still retains the legal rights to that physical stamp. They do not own the name maruka, but only the physical stamp object that Kato ordered to be hand carved for his personal use.
I have met Mr. Kato and independently I had met before he died Mr. Hatanaka.
Hope this helps somehow.
Stones that were actually harvested from the property owned by the Kato family are by definition the only true Nakayama stones.
The Maruich Company is not associated with any other company, especially not the other families included in this posting. This Maruichi is a small private retailer working out of his house in Kyoto and he mainly sells at Kyoto flea markets. The father died many years ago now the son is liquidating stones stock. Maru translates as "circle" ichi means "one".
Nakayama is simply the name of a mine property owned by the Kato family. Naka means "middle" yama means "mountain".
Hatanaka Company was owned by the Hatanaka family who had a retail store in Kyoto which is now closed. The Hatanaka family were originally from Osaka and they are not blood relatives of the Kato family. Their only relationship with the Kato family was a professional one, that of landlord and tenant. The Hatanaka family yearly paid for the retaining of certain mineral rights as a fee to the Kato family and with that fee was included the use of the Maruka stamp.
The name Maruka is basically a Logo designed by the man Kato who was owner of the Nakayama Mine which he inherited from his grandfather and father. Here is the the actual original source of the Maruka Logo. Kato-san's actual hardhat as it rests in the workshop on the Nakayama mine property.
Maru means "circle", ka refers to the first syllable of the family name of Kato. Kato-san invented and designed the Maruka stamp and the Kato family still retains the legal rights to that physical stamp. They do not own the name maruka, but only the physical stamp object that Kato ordered to be hand carved for his personal use.
I have met Mr. Kato and independently I had met before he died Mr. Hatanaka.
Hope this helps somehow.
Last edited:
My biggest problem is the lies. The seller we speak of in his listings says such a stamp are considered tested by the Hatanaka and are the considered suitable for the to fine finishing straight razors. Now we clearly have a stone that was just stamped so this stone was not stamped or tested by the hatanaka company or family.
This is the reason I was asking where the January pic came from. So the stone sold in Japan with no stamp. Was it from a reputable dealer an auction site or something else?
This is the reason I was asking where the January pic came from. So the stone sold in Japan with no stamp. Was it from a reputable dealer an auction site or something else?
So is jp-kouj one of these less than legitimate sellers?
I've admittedly bought very few jnats off ebay. I have two stones from jp-kouj and one from metalmaster. I am extremely happy with these three stone and thought they were worth what I paid. All of my other stones have come off the BST or Etsy.
I realize that the idea here is that the stamps are driving up the price, but if someone purchases one of these fake stamped stones for $500 less than a similar stone on some of the more established stores and they are happy with how the stone works, is there really an issue here? If the stones are not as described as a lot of the 330mate stones ended up being, that's an issue and we should highlight it to people.
I see some calls for trying to address this in some way, but as always, caveat emptor. If you are buying stones for their stamps and you purchase a stone that is marked seven ways to Sunday with fresh stamps, shame on you for not researching jnats enough to know that these stamps are fake as all get out. It's not like this topic has not been covered ad nauseum on multiple forums.
The guys that have been buying stones for awhile (I don't include myself in this number) know that the stamps don't really mean diddly when it comes to the stones performance. They go by the sellers that they trust and have been shown to provide the stones that perform as described.
I personally would love to see some discussion of reputable ebay sellers rather than the disreputable ones, but this would drive prices up more than they already are. This would actually be useful to me, rather than telling me that they only reputable options are the ones selling stones for hundreds of dollars more. I don't really have a bone in this, since I'm done buying stones for a few years, but a list of known good sellers beyond the typical websites listed would be a good thing.
Lastly, the stones are meant to be used, not stored on a shelf and gratuitously photographed and posted like a show pony. If people want to go throw money at party colored stones so they can show them off, I don't care beyond the fact that it seems to be globally driving the prices of stones up.
Every stone I've ever received has been immediately lapped and lost it's stamps with the exception of this barber hone, which seems to be permanently stained with it's stamps. Coincidentally and to satisfy my curiosity before they are finally lapped off, anyone have an idea what these stamps say? I don't care if they are legitimate or not, I just can't seem to track down similar stamps for reference.
I've admittedly bought very few jnats off ebay. I have two stones from jp-kouj and one from metalmaster. I am extremely happy with these three stone and thought they were worth what I paid. All of my other stones have come off the BST or Etsy.
I realize that the idea here is that the stamps are driving up the price, but if someone purchases one of these fake stamped stones for $500 less than a similar stone on some of the more established stores and they are happy with how the stone works, is there really an issue here? If the stones are not as described as a lot of the 330mate stones ended up being, that's an issue and we should highlight it to people.
I see some calls for trying to address this in some way, but as always, caveat emptor. If you are buying stones for their stamps and you purchase a stone that is marked seven ways to Sunday with fresh stamps, shame on you for not researching jnats enough to know that these stamps are fake as all get out. It's not like this topic has not been covered ad nauseum on multiple forums.
The guys that have been buying stones for awhile (I don't include myself in this number) know that the stamps don't really mean diddly when it comes to the stones performance. They go by the sellers that they trust and have been shown to provide the stones that perform as described.
I personally would love to see some discussion of reputable ebay sellers rather than the disreputable ones, but this would drive prices up more than they already are. This would actually be useful to me, rather than telling me that they only reputable options are the ones selling stones for hundreds of dollars more. I don't really have a bone in this, since I'm done buying stones for a few years, but a list of known good sellers beyond the typical websites listed would be a good thing.
Lastly, the stones are meant to be used, not stored on a shelf and gratuitously photographed and posted like a show pony. If people want to go throw money at party colored stones so they can show them off, I don't care beyond the fact that it seems to be globally driving the prices of stones up.
Every stone I've ever received has been immediately lapped and lost it's stamps with the exception of this barber hone, which seems to be permanently stained with it's stamps. Coincidentally and to satisfy my curiosity before they are finally lapped off, anyone have an idea what these stamps say? I don't care if they are legitimate or not, I just can't seem to track down similar stamps for reference.
Keep in mind that Hatanaka was a retailer, the leased the rights to mine stones but the last generation were mainly retailers and they bought and sold stones from many different mines besides the Nakayama. The HATANAKA stamp only means that they (if authentically from Hatanaka) sold the stone after being stamped. It Does Not Mean that the stone was from the Nakayama Mine. I have one fully stamped with all the normal Hatanaka ink but also reads Ohira.
Hatanaka's reputation was based on quality and service, their store was right near the Imperial Palace in Kyoto.
Here is a photo inside the Hatanaka Stone in Kyoto taken in about 2010. A display but in general all of their stock was top notch. Their stones were usually very pure in composition, color, shape and the best of the best quality from which ever mine they came from.
Hatanaka's reputation was based on quality and service, their store was right near the Imperial Palace in Kyoto.
Here is a photo inside the Hatanaka Stone in Kyoto taken in about 2010. A display but in general all of their stock was top notch. Their stones were usually very pure in composition, color, shape and the best of the best quality from which ever mine they came from.
Last edited:
In my opinion, yes.
His stampes are obvisouly faked and the stone doesn’t look good. Most of them are just the cuted edges of a Jnat or really inhomogenous. I have no idea about the actual quality but some of the stones seem to be collected from the overburden of a closed mine and are highly weathered and alterated. I would not recommend to buy this stones. Spend some more money and buy one good quality whetstones instead of 3 or 5 of this doorstops.
I just bought two of them. One is near mirror polish. The other is slightly hazier, but still a quality finisher. I think the stamps are silly, but I don't feel he in any way misrepresented the stones in the listing. It goes back to my original point that while the stamps are obviously not legitimate, if the quality of the stone is there, where's the issue?
- Thread starter
- #30
Well you can take a nice watch, it runs, it's mechanical and put the rolex name on it. It happens, people do it. Is that a problem? Yes it is. You are misrepresenting the product.
Yes the russian seller has some good stones, I bet he doesnt pick them randomly but instead he sourced them in Japan. Sells them and some people are happy. Some are not. Fine, just dont flood the market with fake stamps.
Sell the stone for what it is, ask how many dollars you want and it's all good.
This whole thread was started as an expose of fake stamps. Why you may ask. Well I answered that above and also I do have a personal interest. I do like to collect stamped stones, boxed stones. Don't ask me why I just do. I don't flash them around, I don't post them on forums. Just like to have them in my collection. They get lapped and tested where it doesnt hurt the stamps and then put aside. When he floods the market with fake stamps it does bother me.
Yes the russian seller has some good stones, I bet he doesnt pick them randomly but instead he sourced them in Japan. Sells them and some people are happy. Some are not. Fine, just dont flood the market with fake stamps.
Sell the stone for what it is, ask how many dollars you want and it's all good.
This whole thread was started as an expose of fake stamps. Why you may ask. Well I answered that above and also I do have a personal interest. I do like to collect stamped stones, boxed stones. Don't ask me why I just do. I don't flash them around, I don't post them on forums. Just like to have them in my collection. They get lapped and tested where it doesnt hurt the stamps and then put aside. When he floods the market with fake stamps it does bother me.
We are definitely on opposite ends of the spectrum then. No worries.
The thing that bothers me the most is that he missinforms.
I dont care where he gets them...i dont care for what he sells them...I dont care if his customers are happy or not.
I care about people's hard earned $$$ that want a quality stone and fall for his lies.
What I do care is that he is comitting forgery and ignorant people buy into that further funding the fake stamp factory.
If this bs goes on in a few years there will be more fake stamped stones then authentic ones an this for one man's greed and buyer's lack of knowledge.
Why does he stamp them and edit the pictures?
-for a fast sale
-for a higher sale price
Is that good business practice?
-for him yes...for the competition...no.
Why do people buy them?
-Because they used to be cheap and good for the money...now thanks to superficial buyers or those looking dor the cheap way out...prices have almost doubled...
-I get that not every man has 500-1000$ for a decent quality stamped stone...prices are absurd and all should afford a quality JNAT.
But that does not mean not mean that if a guy is comitting forgery and deciept people should suport his ways and fun him to do more of it.
You dont buy fake brand clothes and flash them arround do you? That's silly.
Why would you support this then?
What's in it for you I ask?
I mean if thise ppl would put in some hours of reading and work they could learn to buy a great unstamped stone...cheap...you say the stamps lap of after use anyiway.
Fake stamped stones are a problem.
Buying into it you accept beeing part of the problem.
Imagine 20 years from now if this goes one...you want to buy a quality stone...and ppl try to sell these as stones with pedigree.
Will a buyer that had the spinal column to buy anfake stamped stone sell it for whatnit is ? ...or what he bought it for.
This is more a problem of ethics and education and the right thing to do...but these are troubled times we live in people....judgement is history...so is honour and respect...all that motivates us is hard cold cash $$$ .. the more the better.
And Alex Gillmore with all due respect to your knowledge and skill sir, those photos of the Kioto Miners Association registry of stamps should not have been made public.
This fake stamp bs started shortly after thise pics started floating arround.
Peace people.
And think twice where you are spending your cash and what your cash turns into...
I dont care where he gets them...i dont care for what he sells them...I dont care if his customers are happy or not.
I care about people's hard earned $$$ that want a quality stone and fall for his lies.
What I do care is that he is comitting forgery and ignorant people buy into that further funding the fake stamp factory.
If this bs goes on in a few years there will be more fake stamped stones then authentic ones an this for one man's greed and buyer's lack of knowledge.
Why does he stamp them and edit the pictures?
-for a fast sale
-for a higher sale price
Is that good business practice?
-for him yes...for the competition...no.
Why do people buy them?
-Because they used to be cheap and good for the money...now thanks to superficial buyers or those looking dor the cheap way out...prices have almost doubled...
-I get that not every man has 500-1000$ for a decent quality stamped stone...prices are absurd and all should afford a quality JNAT.
But that does not mean not mean that if a guy is comitting forgery and deciept people should suport his ways and fun him to do more of it.
You dont buy fake brand clothes and flash them arround do you? That's silly.
Why would you support this then?
What's in it for you I ask?
I mean if thise ppl would put in some hours of reading and work they could learn to buy a great unstamped stone...cheap...you say the stamps lap of after use anyiway.
Fake stamped stones are a problem.
Buying into it you accept beeing part of the problem.
Imagine 20 years from now if this goes one...you want to buy a quality stone...and ppl try to sell these as stones with pedigree.
Will a buyer that had the spinal column to buy anfake stamped stone sell it for whatnit is ? ...or what he bought it for.
This is more a problem of ethics and education and the right thing to do...but these are troubled times we live in people....judgement is history...so is honour and respect...all that motivates us is hard cold cash $$$ .. the more the better.
And Alex Gillmore with all due respect to your knowledge and skill sir, those photos of the Kioto Miners Association registry of stamps should not have been made public.
This fake stamp bs started shortly after thise pics started floating arround.
Peace people.
And think twice where you are spending your cash and what your cash turns into...
I agree. He actually hurt his own sales because so many people are afraid of his products because of his shady lies and stamps. I just saw your post about this on facebook and you have finally confirmed what I thought from the beginning. He is buying these stones at auctions and stamping them himself. No warehouse no stamps being put on by his wholesaler at the warehouse where stones have been catalogued and stored. He does pic some good stones, and some bad. I never paid for the stamps. This is what got me into trying to figure out what the stamps meant though. I only got very nice old stock stones from him all where a steal. Started to wonder if they were stolen at one point.
I may have been the first one on this forum to purchase from him. Not all stones were stamped back then by him. He sold some that I thought looked interesting with stamps so I started researching stamps and found some to be wrong. That was a big red flag, but I already knew based on price unless they were stolen the stamps were not real,. I just never had any solid proof. I find it interesting that no one knows who he is either even in Russia which is why on their forums they talk about not trusting him.
I see this alot where stones sell for pennies on Japan auction sites, then show up on ebay and sell for 10+ times that. Sometimes with stamps that were not there before. All said and done it doesn't make a good stone any less useful as these are tools. I don't collect for stamps or show so as long as they are good working stones is what matters. I wish people were honest, but unfortunately I find only a few who truly are.
well.. my 2 cents....
taken the example of the rolex and some more.
First scenario: A person walks into a jewelry or a fancy store and buys a Rolex, then pay the rolex price but the seller put in a box a cheap Chinese imitation. That person can go to the police and get the authorities to intervene... WHY? cause what the store is doing is wrong. It IS deceiving to the consumer. is doing something that is not only illegal, it is also immoral and despicable. Is the buyer to blame? No, of course no, (i hope we all agree on that cause otherwise there must be something terribly wrong with the way we have been raised)
The seller can try to justify his crime but saying that the Chinese watch looks just as good, and it's just as exact marking time as a rolex.. hell it even has some gold in it!!! but the fact is that it is NOT a Rolex. most likely the price of the watch for the seller was much lower, cause otherwise it would make no sense to sell the chinese instead of the rolex, but that's not what's wrong.. if the seller is capable of selling the Chinese watch at the same price and make 10 times more money out of it.. good for him! but the minute he says it's a rolex then he is deceiving the customer. It's just not morally right. nor legal.
Now, what if the Seller does not know whee the stone comes from? it is STILL wrong to say it is a roles cause he simple does not know. he cays say something like "i think is its... " but not adertise it as such. If in addition to not knowing, if he puts a symbol like "rolex" logo in the watch.. it is even worst. WHY because he knows the watch was a cheap chinese copy and the only reason to add the logo is to make sure the buyer buys his lie. make sure that the deception is complete.
let's set aside the fact that the logo is a current brand. and say that the logo is free to use, not intellectual propperty of a company or a person... The only scenario where selling the counterfeit watch is that the seller is plain and honest with the buyer and tell him: "this is not a real rolex.. buy it and use it as if it was and then you buy some status... " yeah you can imagine the price that the buyer is going to be willing to pay.. and yes, it's not going to be the rolex price baby!
Second scenario:
A person is approached by a person in the street selling a rolex selling the very same model of the chinese watch that looks and feels and works even better than a very rolex (maybe it is the guy that was fooled by the merchant in the first scenario.. whom instead of going to the police and make the things right for himself, tries to sell someone the fake watch to pass along the expense instead of having the guts to understand that the fact that he got a fake watch does not entitle him to fdo the same to someone else to make that other person pay for his mistake... or not.. maybe is just some plane regular criminal making his living, anyway, this guy approach that person and advertises his watch as a rolex), and the person pays for the rolex price for a chinese counterfeit watch...
was that wise from the customer? perhaps not.. but the question is... is it more legal, or morally correct for the seller on the street to do this than for the one in the store? Of course the answer is no...
say the two are taking to the court. if ANY member of the jury was not capable of sewing that this is a plain and simple crime.. i would question tue moral and ethics of that member of the jury... the fact that the person bought the watch in the street has nothing to do with the fact that selling a roles that is not a roles is dead wrong.
Now, the difference is that his is a dead guy and a dead mine? well same goes to a Picasso... if i get someone that can fake a Picasso, or i get a picture "somewhere" that is not signed as a Picasso but is remarkably equal to any Picasso on any of his ages, and just because i think it is a picasso i sign it with picasso signature and sell it as one, at the price of an original... that is counterfeit. it's illegal, its deceiving and its a crime. again i think anyone not capable of seeing this needs to check his moral grounding.
What is the use of a picasso other than seeing it and knowing that you have one? If that person is goig to put the picasso in a vault and never use it.. does that give me the right of faking a picasso and make that collector pay the price?
Shame on him for not knowing the difference? for God sake! really? that person not kowign enough gives us the reason to screw him bad and rob him? wooow, that's surrealistic, it's almost like something i would expect only to hear only in a correctional hallway. My mom would have given me some good spaking if i dared to say such thing when i was growing up...
Same if I sell an iwasaki to someone that will only keep it as a heirloom and not use it.. does that give me the right of selling a fake Iwasaki?
1. the stone performance excells? awesome. describe that and your buyer will decide what he wants to pay.
2. you think the stone is this mine for that other? good! tell you buyer you think it's that way but you have no proof.. he will decide how much he wants to pay.
3. will my buyer use the stone or just keep the stone unused as a museum piece or exhibition? or lap the stamps and use it and verify it's good? Not Of My Business!!!!!
4. If i buy a stone with the right stmps and a box, when i sell it i have all the rigths to sell it as what I purchased. so If i was told it is a maruka, and for me it perfoms as a Maruka, and has a stamp that was there when i bough it, the sure i can sell it as a maruka and say it is a great stone and if the stap is gone i can give pictures and my concience is OK.. BUT if i bought it and later on learned that the seller faked the stamps and i bough a stone that is not such.. it would be immoral to selling it as a maruka knowing what now i know...
5. Ignorance of my customer does not give me the right of take advantage to deceive him. cause he will remain ignorant and i will become a dishonest person and a liar.
6. thinking a stone is X or Y does not give you the right of stamping a stone and saying it's an original hatanaka or maruka or anything else. That is as immoral as changing a label or expired medicines and sell to a person as good.
Like I said.. my 2 cents. take it with a grain of salt.
taken the example of the rolex and some more.
First scenario: A person walks into a jewelry or a fancy store and buys a Rolex, then pay the rolex price but the seller put in a box a cheap Chinese imitation. That person can go to the police and get the authorities to intervene... WHY? cause what the store is doing is wrong. It IS deceiving to the consumer. is doing something that is not only illegal, it is also immoral and despicable. Is the buyer to blame? No, of course no, (i hope we all agree on that cause otherwise there must be something terribly wrong with the way we have been raised)
The seller can try to justify his crime but saying that the Chinese watch looks just as good, and it's just as exact marking time as a rolex.. hell it even has some gold in it!!! but the fact is that it is NOT a Rolex. most likely the price of the watch for the seller was much lower, cause otherwise it would make no sense to sell the chinese instead of the rolex, but that's not what's wrong.. if the seller is capable of selling the Chinese watch at the same price and make 10 times more money out of it.. good for him! but the minute he says it's a rolex then he is deceiving the customer. It's just not morally right. nor legal.
Now, what if the Seller does not know whee the stone comes from? it is STILL wrong to say it is a roles cause he simple does not know. he cays say something like "i think is its... " but not adertise it as such. If in addition to not knowing, if he puts a symbol like "rolex" logo in the watch.. it is even worst. WHY because he knows the watch was a cheap chinese copy and the only reason to add the logo is to make sure the buyer buys his lie. make sure that the deception is complete.
let's set aside the fact that the logo is a current brand. and say that the logo is free to use, not intellectual propperty of a company or a person... The only scenario where selling the counterfeit watch is that the seller is plain and honest with the buyer and tell him: "this is not a real rolex.. buy it and use it as if it was and then you buy some status... " yeah you can imagine the price that the buyer is going to be willing to pay.. and yes, it's not going to be the rolex price baby!
Second scenario:
A person is approached by a person in the street selling a rolex selling the very same model of the chinese watch that looks and feels and works even better than a very rolex (maybe it is the guy that was fooled by the merchant in the first scenario.. whom instead of going to the police and make the things right for himself, tries to sell someone the fake watch to pass along the expense instead of having the guts to understand that the fact that he got a fake watch does not entitle him to fdo the same to someone else to make that other person pay for his mistake... or not.. maybe is just some plane regular criminal making his living, anyway, this guy approach that person and advertises his watch as a rolex), and the person pays for the rolex price for a chinese counterfeit watch...
was that wise from the customer? perhaps not.. but the question is... is it more legal, or morally correct for the seller on the street to do this than for the one in the store? Of course the answer is no...
say the two are taking to the court. if ANY member of the jury was not capable of sewing that this is a plain and simple crime.. i would question tue moral and ethics of that member of the jury... the fact that the person bought the watch in the street has nothing to do with the fact that selling a roles that is not a roles is dead wrong.
Now, the difference is that his is a dead guy and a dead mine? well same goes to a Picasso... if i get someone that can fake a Picasso, or i get a picture "somewhere" that is not signed as a Picasso but is remarkably equal to any Picasso on any of his ages, and just because i think it is a picasso i sign it with picasso signature and sell it as one, at the price of an original... that is counterfeit. it's illegal, its deceiving and its a crime. again i think anyone not capable of seeing this needs to check his moral grounding.
What is the use of a picasso other than seeing it and knowing that you have one? If that person is goig to put the picasso in a vault and never use it.. does that give me the right of faking a picasso and make that collector pay the price?
Shame on him for not knowing the difference? for God sake! really? that person not kowign enough gives us the reason to screw him bad and rob him? wooow, that's surrealistic, it's almost like something i would expect only to hear only in a correctional hallway. My mom would have given me some good spaking if i dared to say such thing when i was growing up...
Same if I sell an iwasaki to someone that will only keep it as a heirloom and not use it.. does that give me the right of selling a fake Iwasaki?
1. the stone performance excells? awesome. describe that and your buyer will decide what he wants to pay.
2. you think the stone is this mine for that other? good! tell you buyer you think it's that way but you have no proof.. he will decide how much he wants to pay.
3. will my buyer use the stone or just keep the stone unused as a museum piece or exhibition? or lap the stamps and use it and verify it's good? Not Of My Business!!!!!
4. If i buy a stone with the right stmps and a box, when i sell it i have all the rigths to sell it as what I purchased. so If i was told it is a maruka, and for me it perfoms as a Maruka, and has a stamp that was there when i bough it, the sure i can sell it as a maruka and say it is a great stone and if the stap is gone i can give pictures and my concience is OK.. BUT if i bought it and later on learned that the seller faked the stamps and i bough a stone that is not such.. it would be immoral to selling it as a maruka knowing what now i know...
5. Ignorance of my customer does not give me the right of take advantage to deceive him. cause he will remain ignorant and i will become a dishonest person and a liar.
6. thinking a stone is X or Y does not give you the right of stamping a stone and saying it's an original hatanaka or maruka or anything else. That is as immoral as changing a label or expired medicines and sell to a person as good.
Like I said.. my 2 cents. take it with a grain of salt.
I know that JNS sells stones that are labeled "Nakayama Maruichi" when there is no clear label that it is a Nakayama - only the Maruichi stamp.
Are these fake or just misrepresented by the seller?
I would think that those stones that are being exported to JNS as Maruichi stones are being either directly purchased from the owner of the Maruichi stamps, a very approachable person, or through an agent who bought them from Maruichi and then exported to JNS. Which ever the Maruichi stamp is not exotic or in my opinion a brand worth the effort of forging. The Nakayama moniker is also not an impossible or even difficult stone to recognize and ascribe if you have had chances to handle bona fide sample stones or have handled the authentic stones alongside one of the well known experts in Kyoto or Tokyo as guidance. The father of the owner of Maruichi did buy stones from Kato-san and I would weigh my opinion that the owner of Maruichi really can pick them out of a pile.
Alex
So to call the stone a Nakayama is still not verifiable but considered authentic when derived from reputable sources given their backround if the Maruichi stamp is there and called such?
It seems that the label Maruichi is often associated with Nakayama but you say there is no connection.
Is there any other mine that uses the Maruichi stamp as well? I have not really seen any.
Who does their grading as many are "specially selected" and "kamisori" etc.
It seems that the label Maruichi is often associated with Nakayama but you say there is no connection.
Is there any other mine that uses the Maruichi stamp as well? I have not really seen any.
Who does their grading as many are "specially selected" and "kamisori" etc.
isn't it true that Maruichi only sourced/distributed stones from Nakayama and Narutaki mines?
""isn't it true that Maruichi only sourced/distributed stones from Nakayama and Narutaki mines?""
The Maruichi owner owns the stock from his fathers store, that stock, in his flea market stall that I have seen at the markets in Kyoto come from several mines, and this son knows what he is selling and I feel that he is honest. This man was not a miner nor was his father. None of these stores from the 1940's or before into the 2010's relied on selling stones from just one or two mines.
""So to call the stone a Nakayama is still not verifiable but considered authentic when derived from reputable sources given their backround""
I would say that these, mostly men, who live-eat-and die in the stone business can if you consider them as reputable, will be your best source of authentic information. If they are not reputable then, no, do not trust them.
""if the Maruichi stamp is there and called such?""
Then simply call it the Maruichi Stamp!
""It seems that the label Maruichi is often associated with Nakayama but you say there is no connection.""
There have been anxious buyers and owners, as far as I can tell that here in the west began to connect Maruichi and Nakayama. I have not met anyone in Japan who assumes any such association between these two. As I said, Kato, Maruichi and Hatanaka were not from the same family and did not sleep in the same bed.
""Is there any other mine that uses the Maruichi stamp as well? I have not really seen any.""
There are no mines who use the Maruichi stamp. Only the retailer Maruichi uses that family stamp. Why would a mine use a stores stamp?
Who does their grading as many are "specially selected" and "kamisori" etc.
The retailers do all of the grading which is a part of what marketing is, but they will of course take advice from the miners. The most active mine is the Maruoyama, that mine owner stamps his stones with the Maruoyama logo along with other various grading or strata designations. This mine in Kameoka would be a great place to begin with any of you who plan on going to Japan for stones. The owner has a very scientific mind and involved in keeping the Kyoto toishi culture alive. Remember before about the 1950's no stones were ink stamped. Housewives auto mechanics did not buy naturally mined stones. Only craftspersons, barbers, carpenter and so forth. These were skilled workers who used stones daily and did not need an ink stamp to them them this was and that isn't a good stone. They tested them with their own tools and razors, no ink stamps to wear off. Stone retailers used to come to your shop so you could test their stone with your tool/razors in your shop. This was the system.
Historically the miners were not retailers or wholesalers, and wholesalers were not retailers or miners. Each of these 3 groups followed industry niceties, didn't step on each other toes and depended on each other to move the product up to the general public in a very old fashion say. We here in the west often want the best-fastest-cheapest. In Japan, well lets say in Old Japan business was more about developing and maintaining relationships up and down this system. Everyone took some little pride and a little provit in their part often because their father did. Out of respect for their father they respected their father clients and sources. Hundreds of years of maintaining this system developed stable communities. Although now less rigid we are seeing in the natural stone business the last vestiges of an intact but fading and fragile window into these old crafts circles. There is something charming and trustworthy in having a system that dates back so far. These are in most part wonderful people who are humble and honest and have toiled and sacrificed comfort. One of my dear friends and mentor owned nagura mines and survived two mine tunnel disasters. There are men about us here too who have sacrificed. Are they honest, do they lie. Some do some don't.
Even the yakuza have a system that dates back hundreds of years and many people respect them for maintaining their heritage, the good and the bad. The yakuza now are legitimate business people just like the casino owners here are in the west.
Each of us here have to take each stone as it comes to us and grade it on the stones own merits. I encourage everyone here to find a mentor, an experienced close by guy that can show you his stones and how to use them.
Good luck,
Alex Gilmore
The Maruichi owner owns the stock from his fathers store, that stock, in his flea market stall that I have seen at the markets in Kyoto come from several mines, and this son knows what he is selling and I feel that he is honest. This man was not a miner nor was his father. None of these stores from the 1940's or before into the 2010's relied on selling stones from just one or two mines.
""So to call the stone a Nakayama is still not verifiable but considered authentic when derived from reputable sources given their backround""
I would say that these, mostly men, who live-eat-and die in the stone business can if you consider them as reputable, will be your best source of authentic information. If they are not reputable then, no, do not trust them.
""if the Maruichi stamp is there and called such?""
Then simply call it the Maruichi Stamp!
""It seems that the label Maruichi is often associated with Nakayama but you say there is no connection.""
There have been anxious buyers and owners, as far as I can tell that here in the west began to connect Maruichi and Nakayama. I have not met anyone in Japan who assumes any such association between these two. As I said, Kato, Maruichi and Hatanaka were not from the same family and did not sleep in the same bed.
""Is there any other mine that uses the Maruichi stamp as well? I have not really seen any.""
There are no mines who use the Maruichi stamp. Only the retailer Maruichi uses that family stamp. Why would a mine use a stores stamp?
Who does their grading as many are "specially selected" and "kamisori" etc.
The retailers do all of the grading which is a part of what marketing is, but they will of course take advice from the miners. The most active mine is the Maruoyama, that mine owner stamps his stones with the Maruoyama logo along with other various grading or strata designations. This mine in Kameoka would be a great place to begin with any of you who plan on going to Japan for stones. The owner has a very scientific mind and involved in keeping the Kyoto toishi culture alive. Remember before about the 1950's no stones were ink stamped. Housewives auto mechanics did not buy naturally mined stones. Only craftspersons, barbers, carpenter and so forth. These were skilled workers who used stones daily and did not need an ink stamp to them them this was and that isn't a good stone. They tested them with their own tools and razors, no ink stamps to wear off. Stone retailers used to come to your shop so you could test their stone with your tool/razors in your shop. This was the system.
Historically the miners were not retailers or wholesalers, and wholesalers were not retailers or miners. Each of these 3 groups followed industry niceties, didn't step on each other toes and depended on each other to move the product up to the general public in a very old fashion say. We here in the west often want the best-fastest-cheapest. In Japan, well lets say in Old Japan business was more about developing and maintaining relationships up and down this system. Everyone took some little pride and a little provit in their part often because their father did. Out of respect for their father they respected their father clients and sources. Hundreds of years of maintaining this system developed stable communities. Although now less rigid we are seeing in the natural stone business the last vestiges of an intact but fading and fragile window into these old crafts circles. There is something charming and trustworthy in having a system that dates back so far. These are in most part wonderful people who are humble and honest and have toiled and sacrificed comfort. One of my dear friends and mentor owned nagura mines and survived two mine tunnel disasters. There are men about us here too who have sacrificed. Are they honest, do they lie. Some do some don't.
Even the yakuza have a system that dates back hundreds of years and many people respect them for maintaining their heritage, the good and the bad. The yakuza now are legitimate business people just like the casino owners here are in the west.
Each of us here have to take each stone as it comes to us and grade it on the stones own merits. I encourage everyone here to find a mentor, an experienced close by guy that can show you his stones and how to use them.
Good luck,
Alex Gilmore
Good post Alex.
