I think I finally pinpointed my allergy

[Kyle Hyde]

There are very few soaps that I was able to use without getting a tingly, irritated feeling after shaving. Now I finally found out what the ingredient is...it's palm oil. All the soaps that have done this have contained palm oil...mamma bear's, kell's unscented, DR harris, cade, Provence Sante and some others. Tabac, prairie creations, and VDH deluxe don't do this to me. It's almost like I can feel the palm oil when I shave with one of those that contain it. Is palm oil a common ingredient in shave creams? I've yet to find one cream that doesn't irritate my skin.

 

[tnewswander]

There are very few soaps that I was able to use without getting a tingly, irritated feeling after shaving. Now I finally found out what the ingredient is...it's palm oil. All the soaps that have done this have contained palm oil...mamma bear's, kell's unscented, DR harris, cade, Provence Sante and some others. Tabac, prairie creations, and VDH deluxe don't do this to me. It's almost like I can feel the palm oil when I shave with one of those that contain it. Is palm oil a common ingredient in shave creams? I've yet to find one cream that doesn't irritate my skin.

Sorry, prairie creations has palm oil in it (now she doesn't have coconut oil which is very popular nowadays and which mama bears does contain). The ingredients (per Krissy's website) are as follows:

Ingredients For the Aloe Vera Base :

* LIQUIDS : Aloe Vera Juice
* OILS : Tallow, Palm Oil, Castor Oil, Safflower Oil, and Soybean Oil
* OTHER INGREDIENTS : Lye, Stearic Acid, Glycerin, Wheat Protein, Kaolin Clay and Fragrance
* OPTIONAL INGREDIENTS : Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein

 

[cymric]

There are very few soaps that I was able to use without getting a tingly, irritated feeling after shaving. Now I finally found out what the ingredient is...it's palm oil. All the soaps that have done this have contained palm oil...mamma bear's, kell's unscented, DR harris, cade, Provence Sante and some others. Tabac, prairie creations, and VDH deluxe don't do this to me. It's almost like I can feel the palm oil when I shave with one of those that contain it. Is palm oil a common ingredient in shave creams? I've yet to find one cream that doesn't irritate my skin.

Let me put it this way: I am willing to bet quite a large sum on the fact that palm oil is NOT the cause of your problems. Palm oil is a mixture of fatty acids making up the soap, much like tallow, olive oil, cocoa butter or shea butter are mixtures. The clinger: the compounds in the mixture are to a great extent identical---and if not identical then chemically so similar that your skin would get inflamed at the lot of them instead of just a single compound---and therefore it doesn't make any sense that you would respond to palm oil soaps, but not to, say, tallow soaps. (Tabac is tallow-based.)

Although it is possible that there is some other component common to all soaps which your skin disagrees with, or (highly unusual), a component unique to each soap you respond to, but somehow I doubt this---you list too great a deal of products which are not really known for causing problems save in a few select cases. I would look much closer at my prepping, lathering and shaving techniques, if I were you.

 

[Kyle Hyde]

Well maybe it isn't the palm oil then. But those soaps I listed all caused that irritation almost instantly upon application. I mean without any shaving whatsoever. I've been wetshaving for more than a year now, and I KNOW it has absolutely nothing to do with my technique.

 

[cymric]

Trust me, I'm wetshaving properly for well over two years now, and I'm still learning subtleties which help me avoid painful shaves which still creep up on me unexpectedly. I didn't write what I did to patronise you---if it came across that way I apologise. You should take it as a strong hint to look elsewhere, however unlikely that may seem.

It's not the palm oil. It simply can't be, as much as 1+1 cannot be 3.

 

[cvac]

Agree it's probably not the palm oil. What it could be is some other common ingredient, the ph of the soap, or that you could be very sensitive to many types of fragrances and for some reason all the ones you mentioned irritate you.

 

[wedwards]

Not sure why it cant be the palm oil necessarily. Both myself and my son are allergic to it, thus the reason I have to make my own soaps most of the time. I get the same sort of reaction as described by the original poster.

What you will find with the prairie creations soap that does contain palm oil, is that it likely contains very very little. Dont quote me on this, but I know when I spoke with Krissy a while back, she did say that she wasnt a big fan of palm oil in certain soaps (cant remember why), but it was sometimes necessary to achieve a certain effect in some soaps.

Suggest you contact her and ask how much palm oil is actually in her soap.

 

[wedwards]

Let me put it this way: I am willing to bet quite a large sum on the fact that palm oil is NOT the cause of your problems. Palm oil is a mixture of fatty acids making up the soap, much like tallow, olive oil, cocoa butter or shea butter are mixtures.

yes, but if you are allergic to palm oil, making soap out of it aint going to change it's composition to the point where you are not allergic to it. trust me, i know this from experience. and yes, if you want to take that bet I can send you photos of skin ***** tests and blood analysis of the massive number of allergies i have, palm oil being one of them. we even did skin ***** tests with soap made out of different things (including palm oil) to prove what did or did not cause a reaction in soaps when i started wet shaving - effectively the test results indicated that if you are allergic to the base oil, you will also be allergic to any soap made from said oil.

whilst i didnt test every soap on the market, approx $250 worth of soaps were tested over an extended period.

 

[cymric]

yes, but if you are allergic to palm oil, making soap out of it aint going to change it's composition to the point where you are not allergic to it. trust me, i know this from experience. and yes, if you want to take that bet I can send you photos of skin ***** tests and blood analysis of the massive number of allergies i have, palm oil being one of them. we even did skin ***** tests with soap made out of different things (including palm oil) to prove what did or did not cause a reaction in soaps when i started wet shaving - effectively the test results indicated that if you are allergic to the base oil, you will also be allergic to any soap made from said oil.

I myself was tested extremely positive for anything dust, cat, horse, pollen, whatever related, yet I have two cats walking in my house right now which sleep on my bed to boot, and I have almost no response from them. There are about 10 days a year here where I need medicin against the pollens, but overall my response is very mild despite the test indicating otherwise. Within my family, similar experiences circulate. So I tend to take those tests with a grain of salt.

Second, there are of course proteins in oils, and those are the do-badders. Coconut and peanut and other nut allergies are caused by them. But proteins don't survive the refining and saponification processes, so they're out. It cannot be the fatty acids as those are found in soaps based on other oils and fats too, notably tallow. And the OP can shave just fine with Tabac. So that leaves the unsaponifiable content---and I can't find anything related to that.

Mind, I am not patronising the responses, but a response has to make sense in a biochemical way, and these don't. Do any of your soaps contain 'coconut acid', for example?

 

[Wil Dorenbos]

Do any of your soaps contain 'coconut acid', for example?

+1 I found I may have a problem with that too (and almond...)

 

[Emmett]

Oils are, as been noted, mixtures of fatty acids, where the specific acids and their ratios determine the kind of oil. It could be that you are sensitive to a certain acid above a certain threshold, and soaps with a certain amount of palm oil contain enough of that acid to cause a reaction, whereas soaps with little or no palm oil don't have enough of whatever acid is the irritant.

Here is a chart showing a breakdown of fats commonly used in soapmaking by what percents of fatty acids they contain. As you can see, palm oil contains the most palmitic acid by more than 10%, so if you are sensitive to palmitic acid, soaps that are primarily made with palm oil may have enough of it to cause a reaction. Likewise, coconut oil has high percentage of lauric acid. Lauric acid has great characteristics that contribute desired properties to a soap, but it is known to be a skin irritant. So soaps made with primarily coconut and/or palm kernel oil will have good soap qualities (latherability, lather stability, etc), but can be irritating.

I don't know the ingredients of all the soaps you listed, but I bet that if you were able to obtain the percentages of the oils used and broke those down to get fatty acid percentage totals, that the soaps that caused a reaction will all have a percentage of a certain acid considerably above the percentage of that same acid in soaps that did not cause irritation.

 

[Mama Bear]

Palm oil could be it.. I also have wheat and soy in my soaps which are allergens to some folks.. but it is usually the fragrance that is the culprit. I have gone thru my oils and I am out of palm, I think I have every other oil in the world but palm here.. go figure. Maybe one of the other soapers can send a small sample of palm oil for you to try? It is pretty hard to nail these things down but it is always to your benefit if you can find out what it is! I am sorry you had problems hon.. Bear Hugs, Sue

 

[Mama Bear]

Oils are, as been noted, mixtures of fatty acids, where the specific acids and their ratios determine the kind of oil. It could be that you are sensitive to a certain acid above a certain threshold, and soaps with a certain amount of palm oil contain enough of that acid to cause a reaction, whereas soaps with little or no palm oil don't have enough of whatever acid is the irritant.

Here is a chart showing a breakdown of fats commonly used in soapmaking by what percents of fatty acids they contain. As you can see, palm oil contains the most palmitic acid by more than 10%, so if you are sensitive to palmitic acid, soaps that are primarily made with palm oil may have enough of it to cause a reaction. Likewise, coconut oil has high percentage of lauric acid. Lauric acid has great characteristics that contribute desired properties to a soap, but it is known to be a skin irritant. So soaps made with primarily coconut and/or palm kernel oil will have good soap qualities (latherability, lather stability, etc), but can be irritating.

I don't know the ingredients of all the soaps you listed, but I bet that if you were able to obtain the percentages of the oils used and broke those down to get fatty acid percentage totals, that the soaps that caused a reaction will all have a percentage of a certain acid considerably above the percentage of that same acid in soaps that did not cause irritation.

This is interesting! Thanks!

 

[wedwards]

I myself was tested extremely positive for anything dust, cat, horse, pollen, whatever related, yet I have two cats walking in my house right now which sleep on my bed to boot, and I have almost no response from them. There are about 10 days a year here where I need medicin against the pollens, but overall my response is very mild despite the test indicating otherwise. Within my family, similar experiences circulate. So I tend to take those tests with a grain of salt.

Animal tests are very inconclusive. Just because you tested positive but are ok with the cats in your house, doesnt mean you are not allergic to cats - it just means you arent allergic to your model of cat. The usual process once an allergy is identified is to conduct further testing to further isolate exactly what you are allergic to (the cat test for instance, consists of a saliva test of only a dozen major cat types).

In my case, and with regard to soaps (and many other things, mind you), I did this, and have _very_ conclusive and replicable results.

Second, there are of course proteins in oils, and those are the do-badders. Coconut and peanut and other nut allergies are caused by them. But proteins don't survive the refining and saponification processes, so they're out. It cannot be the fatty acids as those are found in soaps based on other oils and fats too, notably tallow. And the OP can shave just fine with Tabac. So that leaves the unsaponifiable content---and I can't find anything related to that.

Mind, I am not patronising the responses, but a response has to make sense in a biochemical way, and these don't. Do any of your soaps contain 'coconut acid', for example?

I completely agree with you in theory, however in my tests, that theory was proven seriously incorrect for reasons I cannot explain (and neither could a lot of doctors or soapers that I have posed these questions to). I even learnt to make soap to do testing of my own.

This is a _very_ YMMV kind of subject, with each person needing to do their own testing, and their own research, and coming to their own conclusion.

 

[wedwards]

As you can see, palm oil contains the most palmitic acid by more than 10%, so if you are sensitive to palmitic acid, soaps that are primarily made with palm oil may have enough of it to cause a reaction. Likewise, coconut oil has high percentage of lauric acid. Lauric acid has great characteristics that contribute desired properties to a soap, but it is known to be a skin irritant. So soaps made with primarily coconut and/or palm kernel oil will have good soap qualities (latherability, lather stability, etc), but can be irritating.

Not to hijack this thread, but you sound like you have some experience in this area and while i have your attention....

I am NOT allergic to palmitic acid (have tested for it specifically), however if you put palm oil in soap it burns my face off. The exact same soap without palm oil is perfectly ok.

Got any explanation for that? No-one has been able to provide a reasonably scientific explanation, and i just leave it out of any soap i make or buy now.

 

[Pricklycactus]

I was tested allergic to cats and dogs but I refused to give them up. Instead, I went on a diet change and avoided, sugar, dairy and wheat products as they cause the body to produce more mucous. It was very hard but I don't have a lot of problems with asthma anymore if I am careful. You can also get used to your pet's dander but if introduced to different cat you can reaction.

FYI, LUSH as gone palm free for their soaps so you might try some to see if it helps. I dont think all of their shampoos are palm free yet. The closest thing to a shaving soap would be the Trichomania shampoo which is a nice lathering coconut smelling product. I wish I had dry hair as its very conditioning but it a bit rich for me. I think it could work as a shaving soap but contact them to make sure its palmfree.

Other soaps (the soaps are for sure palm free) that might work because they dont have chunks of fruit or herbs are Alkamaar which is creamy jasmine /honeysuckle scented soap, Vanilla in the Mist, Chox Away, The Godmother, Karma, Rockstar, Honey I washed the Kids, Iceblue. I don't know how well they would lather and they are pretty fragranced if that is also a culprit.

 

[soapbox]

Not to hijack this thread, but you sound like you have some experience in this area and while i have your attention....

I am NOT allergic to palmitic acid (have tested for it specifically), however if you put palm oil in soap it burns my face off. The exact same soap without palm oil is perfectly ok.

Got any explanation for that? No-one has been able to provide a reasonably scientific explanation, and i just leave it out of any soap i make or buy now.

Assuming, for the moment, that you were able to find a soap available with and without palm oil (and no other differences, which seems a dangerous assumption) yet are not explicitly allergic to palmitic acid, you might be allergic to some of the other fatty acids in palm oil like oleic or linoleic acid (see here for more).

Personally -- and I'm neither a physician nor an allergist -- I think the soaps were somehow different, and would like to know which ones you used?

 

[Sueto]

Kyle Hyde, thats awesome you were able to track down an issue to the single ingredient. Have you been tested for that specific allergy or seen an allergist now that you might have an idea of what it might be? Just more for curiosity.

Regardless of the technique used, if your face starts feeling like it's on fire, screw that soap! hah. I had a similiar issue with almond scented creams. I would use them and the shave would be going good, but I felt tingling. After finishing up it would feel like a bad sun burn and peel. No other cream caused this sensation or after affect.

 

[Saltysteele]

with krissy's, the major oil used is tallow.

tallow, lard and palm oils are the major hard oils used in soap (there are others, i'm using these as an example), as they lend to a hard bar of soap. for instance castille soaps, 100% olive oil soaps, make a soft bar that takes forever to harden.

coconut oil, is not recommended in percentages over 30%, as while it does make a bubbly soap and has an extremely high cleaning characteristic, it has an extremely high cleaning characteristic and can dry your skin out and irritate it (cleaning is not the only characteristic looked at when formulating a soap recipe). you are stripping most of the oils out of your skin, which, as you can imagine, is not what you want.

also, something to consider, not ALL the oils are saponified when making soap. we do what is called superfatting, where we add only enough lye to leave a small percentage of oils unsaponified. this does 2 things. first, it allows the soap to moisturize nicely (unfortunately, you cannot pick and choose which oils the lye is going to saponify; in other words, you cannot say "i want the palm oil all saponified and only 90% of the shea butter saponified). secondly, it helps to assure you will not have a lye-heavy soap, where not all the lye is used up, and remains in the soap.

i've used soap with tallow, lard and palm oil as the main oil, and personally, i'm a lard soap fan. nothing leaves my skin as soft and moisturized tallow is just as good, i will admit. however, i prefer the animal fat soaps over the plant-oil based soaps. ymmv

so, to recap, there ARE trace amounts of unsaponified (not soap) oils.

so, it is possible if you are allergic to palm oil, you could be reacting to the palm oil. it also could be that you are sensitive to salt made by the saponification of palm oil (i think it's called palmitate?)

 

[wedwards]

Assuming, for the moment, that you were able to find a soap available with and without palm oil (and no other differences, which seems a dangerous assumption) yet are not explicitly allergic to palmitic acid, you might be allergic to some of the other fatty acids in palm oil like oleic or linoleic acid (see here for more).

Personally -- and I'm neither a physician nor an allergist -- I think the soaps were somehow different, and would like to know which ones you used?

I made the soaps myself, and ensured no cross-contamination etc etc. They were made to the exact same recipe, one with and one without palm oil, using a soap calculator to ensure lye was identical ratio between the 2 etc (i.e. so that superfatting could not be the reason why the one with palm oil affected me, and the other didnt).

There is still a chance that one did not saponify completely, but i did a couple of tests over the course of a few months and the results do seem to agree with eachother.