How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop

[Sukeroku]

I recently bought a vintage Iwasaki kamisori from a barber in northern Japan It came shave-ready
and the edge was fantastic. I sent the seller a note praising the edge and asking about maintaining
an edge on a kamisori. I received back a very detailed explanation of...stropping on diamond-pasted
balsa strops.

Talk about preaching to the choir...

 

[Darth Scandalous]

Question is whether I finish w Fuji or Shapton 12k which some say is similar to a 10k like the Naniwa would I need to get a 1um to fill in the gap before I start the method of .5um paste Onto the .25um and finally onto .1um?!

Honestly I doubt it would be a problem to go from either the Fuji or the Shapton to the balsa progression. I get better edges off my Fuji than I do off 1 micron film, frankly, although that has more to do with comfort than a difference in sharpness. I think Naniwa rates the Fuji at 1.2 microns anyway...as long as your edge is consistent at that point, the balsa progression will do the rest.

 

[rbscebu]

.... Question is whether I finish w Fuji or Shapton 12k which some say is similar to a 10k like the Naniwa would I need to get a 1um to fill in the gap before I start the method of .5um paste Onto the .25um and finally onto .1um?!

1μm is equivalent to about 20k grit, 0.5μm to about 50k, 0.25μm to about 100k and 0.1μm to about 200k. I hope that helps.

Going from 10k or 12k straight to 0.5μm is a rather large jump. You need to remove all the scratch marks from the previous honing on the next honing medium. This can be done on the 0.5μm but it will take a lot of time and effort. I know because I have tried it (10k straight to 0.5μm).

Lapping films are cheap, unless you are honing lots (say 100 or more) of SRs. I now go from 8k synthetic to 3μm > 1μm films and then onto diamond pasted balsa 0.5μm > 0.25μm > 0.1μm > 0.1μm hanging.

The secret to getting a comfortable edge off diamond pasted balsa, is the short X strokes in the final stages. Of course you already know this because you have read this thread.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

1μm is equivalent to about 20k grit, 0.5μm to about 50k, 0.25μm to about 100k and 0.1μm to about 200k. I hope that helps.

Especially when talking about finishing level grits, it's really important to know which grit scale you're talking about in order to compare apples to apples. ANSI is different than JIS and Shapton uses their own. For reference, Shapton's 16k is .92 microns, their 8k is 1.84, so we can guess that the 12k is in between. Naniwa uses JIS and rates the Fuji 8k at 1.2. Of course, that's the average, not every particle in those stones is exactly that size; grit distribution is a big factor in how a synth performs. I don't own the Shapton but from folks who have used both, the Fuji and the Shapton 12k are in the same ballpark. And while they nominally are slightly coarser than 1 micron, the fact is they both will produce a shaveable edge that is very similar to 1 micron film... in fact the Fuji will have a better polish under magnification than 1um film, I know because I've compared them.

All that to say, yes, you can go from a Fuji 8k to .5 diamond pasted balsa, I've done it and it didn't take any more time or effort than 1um film. What 10k did you use?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Think your numbers are a little off, as said, it depends on which charts you are reading, but it does not matter.

A Fuji should leave a near mirror finish, as will a 10 and 12k, so how do you compare grit finish on a stria-less bevel?

Grit size does not matter as much as finish performance. Jnat grit is much larger but out-performs synthetic stones of higher grits as can Arks and some Slates. So, grit size itself, do not dictate results.

It is an easy jump to .50um, (20-30k), maybe 20-30 laps to a stria free mirror finish with CBN. Not on Balsa, but a hanging strop of Sail Cloth, Polyester canvas or Pellon, (Synthetic paper fabric).

Yes, I know do not deviate…

But there are alternatives and dogmatically following the “procedure” will keep most folks shaving, if that is your only goal. There are other and better shaving edges.

As said, experiment, at these grits, you will not break or ruin your razor, it is steel. Worst case you drop back down to an 8k bevel and edge, maybe 20-30 laps and start over.

If you just want to shave, by all means stay within the lines.

There are no rules.

 

[JPO]

When you move from a hard surface to a soft surface you are getting more contact pressure at the apex on a much smaller area. This makes the balsa really effective, even with a fine compound.
As have been said, just follow the recipe if you just care about the end results.
Grit vs steel refinement across different substrates is not linear.

Doing x amount of strokes on 1,2,3,4,5,6 7,8,9,10,12,15, 20 k stones also works grate, but I think most can agree that there is a simpler solution.
Steel can only be taken off..

 

[rbscebu]

@Darth Scandalous, sorry for the confusion. My grit ratings are based on ANSI.

 

[JPO]

@Darth Scandalous, sorry for the confusion. My grit ratings are based on ANSI.

It would be really nice if the wet stone manufactures (and diamond emulation/compound makers) would provide the actual grit distribution and density in the mix. It is really confusing. The 12k shapton pro is also sold as a 15k. My Suehiro Kouseki 10k is rated to 1 micron, which is quite close to a Naniwa 12k at 1 micron. The Kouseki is much harder then the Naniwa, and due to the sintering process is able to cut much faster and finish finer then the rated grit because it glaces a little.
So what is the largest particle in a Chinese 10 stone? I guess the same is relates to diamond pastes. How many e.g. 4-5 micron particles can you have in a 1 micron emulsion and still rate it at 1 micron?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Added to the whole grit drama and substrate hardness vs performance is the most difficult thing to learn about honing razors, is not about honing.

Stropping. You can wipe out an edge in a single stroke on plain leather, add diamonds or any abrasive to any substrate and any error is magnified.

So, in order to learn to hone, you must learn to strop. It can take a year of daily stropping to get to the point where a new guy is continually improving an edge. It can literally be one step forward two steps back.

Until you get to that point you will be going from the strop back to film or stones to correct the edge, but rarely does it take much more than 8k to make a repair.

Learn to look at the edge and detect problems, shiny reflections where the bevels are not meeting fully. Then correct those issues, what ever it takes. If you move up in grits thinking the higher grit will bring the bevels to meeting it will fight you all the way.

You can get a smoking edge from film and a pasted strop, but I find those edges harsh. Everyone’s skin and beard type are different, as are razor selection and skill level.

So, in the end you find what works for you. Experiment, it’s just a razor and guys have been scraping hair from their faces for hundreds of years with steel honed on much less sophisticated stones and paste than we have now.

Enjoy.

 

[Eben Stone]

Stropping. You can wipe out an edge in a single stroke on plain leather, add diamonds or any abrasive to any substrate and any error is magnified.

So, in order to learn to hone, you must learn to strop. It can take a year of daily stropping to get to the point where a new guy is continually improving an edge. It can literally be one step forward two steps back.

So how does a beginner learn to do it the right way? I mean besides a year of potentially doing it wrong. Or is that the only way?

I've watched a few YouTube videos, but everyone seems to have a slightly different technique.

 

[Slash McCoy]

1μm is equivalent to about 20k grit, 0.5μm to about 50k, 0.25μm to about 100k and 0.1μm to about 200k. I hope that helps.

Going from 10k or 12k straight to 0.5μm is a rather large jump. You need to remove all the scratch marks from the previous honing on the next honing medium. This can be done on the 0.5μm but it will take a lot of time and effort. I know because I have tried it (10k straight to 0.5μm).

Lapping films are cheap, unless you are honing lots (say 100 or more) of SRs. I now go from 8k synthetic to 3μm > 1μm films and then onto diamond pasted balsa 0.5μm > 0.25μm > 0.1μm > 0.1μm hanging.

The secret to getting a comfortable edge off diamond pasted balsa, is the short X strokes in the final stages. Of course you already know this because you have read this thread.

The gap between a nicely lapped Naniwa 12k Superstone and .5µ diamond paste in lapped balsa is one I have found to be easily managed if you max out on the Nanny. 1µ film does seem to work a little better, but the 12k Naniwa serves the purpose just fine for me, as well. I use either/or, as mood and convenience dictate. This is one of the few choices specified in The Method, and I do try to practice what I preach and so basically at that stage I do not use anything else at all. I do not even own any other comparable grit stones except an Awesado I have been meaning to list on fleabay. The only Shapton product I currently own is a very coarse Kuromaku that I actually rather like.

 

[JPO]

So how does a beginner learn to do it the right way? I mean besides a year of potentially doing it wrong. Or is that the only way?

I've watched a few YouTube videos, but everyone seems to have a slightly different technique.

A beginner uses a recommended approach to astablish a base line. Then he should change as few variables as possible each time if he wants to find his own way.
Sharp can be easy. Finding that unicorn edge takes a little more time

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Just like any other skill you wish to master, pay attention, think about what you are doing, what you want to accomplish and keep swinging. Check the edge visually and correct the edge at the slightest shaving issue. If you are new to honing and the razor is drawing blood, it’s not too sharp the edge is chipped.

It is interesting to me how much attention proper stropping requires. Even after years of stropping. If my bride walks into the room while I am stropping, I stop stropping. I do the same when she walks into the shop to ask a question and I am operating a saw or completing a tedious task.

Go slow, do not lift the spine, keep the spine on the strop the whole time, use lite downward pressure and flip with your fingers, not with your wrist.

And make sure your strop is clean.

Just accept that you will need to refresh on the stones. When you learned to drive you were not a perfect driver, hell you probably still are not. You drive well enough to have stayed alive, but still have close calls or bump into curbs. Talk on the cell or change the radio station and it all goes out the window.

 

[Eben Stone]

Don't forget to end-for-end your balsa strop during use.

Can you elaborate?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. For my regular laps, I end the stroke with the edge of the blade about 1/2 inch away from the edge of the balsa.

 

[rbscebu]

Can you elaborate?

Maybe I'm doing something wrong. For my regular laps, I end the stroke with the edge of the blade about 1/2 inch away from the edge of the balsa.

About half way through the use of a balsa strop for a SR, you turn the balsa strop around 180° so the the end that was closest to you is now furthest away from you. The reason for this is to even out the wear of the balsa surface and to allow for any variation in the paste distribution in the balsa so that your SR edge get a more even stropping.

If that explanation confuses you PM me and I'll send you a short video showing you what I mean.

 

[luv2shave]

seems about right to get in to the method ...

The TDT 200,000 grit arrive earlier from Amazon. Would this be good to start with on an established and proven sharp edge off the Naniwa 12k ?

 

[hugosf]

The TDT 200,000 grit arrive earlier from Amazon. Would this be good to start with on an established and proven sharp edge off the Naniwa 12k ?

Where did you buy the acrylic substrate? How much it cost?

 

[luv2shave]

Where did you buy the acrylic substrate? How much it cost?

I am in India, we can buy acrylic cut to size and pay by the kilogram. 20 mm thick acrylic cut to one piece of 12"x12" and three pieces of 12"x3" cost me roughly 12 dollars.

 

[hugosf]

I am in India, we can buy acrylic cut to size and pay by the kilogram. 20 mm thick acrylic cut to one piece of 12"x12" and three pieces of 12"x3" cost me roughly 12 dollars.

Thank you for the answer. I only find in my country thin pieces, about 3-5 mm.

 

[rbscebu]

Thank you for the answer. I only find in my country thin pieces, about 3-5 mm.

You can use 5mm - just. Anything thinner than 5mm will be too thin. Glue the 5mm thick piece of acrylic to a similar sized piece of ceramic floor tile. The tile will need to be smooth, flat and have a matt (not gloss) finish. Use contact or rubber adhesive.

Then glue some lightweight timber or PVC foam to the underside of the tile to bring the overall thickness up to about 25mm to 30mm. You can again use contact/rubber adhesive for this, except for PVC foam. If using PVC foam, use an epoxy adhesive.

Once all together, paint the timber or PVC foam to prevent water absorption.

Full instructions are given in Annex III of the SR shaving instructions.

Traditional Straight Razor Shaving Instructions for Beginners

The attached are instructions for beginners in the gentlemanly art of traditional straight razor shaving. Updated instructions will be posted in this thread as they are developed. To keep this thread reasonably clean and easy to read, please post any comments/suggestions in this thread and ask...

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