how to properly use Coticule.?

[wdwrx]

OK, I'm trying to follow this thread on two sereprate forums and I've become horribly confuse,.

Sham, in the OP, you stated that honing with slurry would not be faster:

Question is can you use it with slurry and sharpen razor faster?
Yes you can but it is not the proper way to use it and it is not faster.

Which I find confusing as it is so obviously different from my own (admitidly limited) experience in using a coticule..
The agrument about wearing out my stone fast, thoufgh it may have some validity, I really don't consider it an issue. It is a tool meant to be used.

Then you told Nick to (I infered) not dull his razor on a glass as he

Nick don't do that you will get nowhere

This makes me think that using a coticule with water only in the method you have described would be only suitable for refreshing a dull edge, not for setting a bevel.
In my experience, I would agree with that whole heartedly. A coticule with only water will not reset a bevel in a reasonable amount of time.
This is a direct contradiction to your statement that :

i said if you use slurry and then start to diluting and then using water ends up spending more time then just using water

But then you mention that:

i never said slurry won't cut faster etc

and

This process will take more time then just using your coticule with water without making slurry etc

But that is absolutey false. (I try very hard to not make sweeping statements, but this is a good a time as any)
It's seems to be a pretty commonly accepted premise that slurry on any hone will increase the cutting speed.
A typical coticule can recover a slightly worn bevel with just water, but in my books, that's not showing much. I can do the same with any finishing stone I have. I think it's reffered to as a "touch-up"


I would put forth the point that Dyan made on SRP:

Yes, I do think one stone honing has problems. In my opinion, it's a waste of time and highly inconsistent

(emphasis mine)
And suggest that yes, it can be an inconsistent process, until it is learned.
At which point, it can be as consistent as any other process. (at least I'm able to achieve consistent results now, though this wasn't always the case)

So I'll repeat, I've become horribly confused: You've contradicted yourself at least once, and most of everything else you've stated about coticules has not matched the experience of many many people, the vast majority of which have far more experience than myself.

At this point, I think you're just trolling to get a rise out of all the people that have spent the time needed to learn to get consistent results with their coticules,
and after reading threads on SRP for just about a year now, I can't help but wonder what your motivation is, as you otherwise seem to be sincerely helpful and friendly fellow.

 

[chess1]

Chris go head do the test correct way then come up and say what you think.
My motivation is show to easy ways. that is all. not to confuse.

 

[Blue58]

That instruction label is for a thuringian stone, not a coticule/Belgian stone.

Oops I didn't see that last sentence telling what the stone was. my apologies to the OP


Thats what happens when you respond to these threads when your very tired

 

[life2short1971]

try this and see what happens.
use just water and start to hone.
you will have some slurry formation on the stone after 20-30 strokes. (DON'T WASH slurry etc leave it alone)when you feel your slurry gets dry add couple more drops of water and keep it going until you get the edge you like.
go head make last 10 strokes with just water.
check time how long you did spend with this method and other method.
gl

I have several coti's and they don't all produce a slurry without a slurry stone or dmt.My faster ones do yes but the slower ones no. And they definately cut faster with a slurry than without.

 

[Blue58]

I am gonna step out of the box here. Could it be that Chess is basing all his knowledge and experience about coti's when he refers to the 2 or 3% that are usable that he means the only coti's that are usable are the ones that self slurry and the ones that don't are no good??

This would fit what Chess says about just using water as you probably wouldn't need to use a slurry stone with a coti that made its own slurry.

As stated in life2short's post....

I have several coti's and they don't all produce a slurry without a slurry stone or dmt.My faster ones do yes but the slower ones no. And they definately cut faster with a slurry than without.

However if I read this correctly the statements Chess made that a stone will not cut faster with a slurry doesn't make any sense.

I don't know anything about coti's. I am just trying to follow along and make some sense of this thread

What I am seeing is that about 98% of the experienced coti users have a completely different experience with their coti's than Chess does.

 

[wdwrx]

Or should you say "axe honing"?

 

[chess1]

However if I read this correctly the statements Chess made that a stone will not cut faster with a slurry doesn't make any sense.

Where did you read this?

 

[professorchaos]

Stay on topic gents. No squabbling, no insulting each other. If you happen to dislike each other, don't bring it into this thread.

 

[wdwrx]

Stay on topic gents. No squabbling, no insulting each other. If you happen to dislike each other, don't bring it into this thread.

Yes please. i absolutley hate when threads get closed.

 

[SliceOfLife]

i never said slurry won't cut faster etc.
i said if you use slurry and then start to diluting and then using water ends up spending more time then just using water.
go head try it and see what happens.
In most coticules after 20-30 strokes it will form slurry and you just keep adding drop of water when it dries. You don't have to wash stone while you hone until the end.

Yeah this is what I was referring to as Autoslurry. I believe Bart coined the term to describe the coti's that require frequent rinsing to properly finish on water (as Autoslurriers... as in they automatically create slurry through normal honing without a rubbing stone). This seems to indicate that my guess at where your 3% number comes from is quite reasonable. If you are counting on a stone raising a little bit of slurry while finishing on water and are not rinsing it off (therefore you are using slurry to hone) then yes only a small number of coticules will release slurry that readily (autoslurry) that you would be able to hone without rubbing the stone first and get to a shaving edge in a reasonable amount of time. In my experience (fairly small sample size) this is maybe 1-2 stones out of 20. Not too far from your 3% number given the sample size. If you took the time to practice first raising a slurry and then diluting, and developed a feel for the consistency of slurry proper throughout honing, I think you would find that 99.9% of coticules are suitable for finishing razors if used properly.


Also, going from a stone honed from bevel on autoslurry to only 10 strokes on water will not give you anything remotely close to a proper coticule edge... so I'm beginning to see where your 8k number comes from as well.

I am gonna step out of the box here. Could it be that Chess is basing all his knowledge and experience about coti's when he refers to the 2 or 3% that are usable that he means the only coti's that are usable are the ones that self slurry and the ones that don't are no good??

Bingo. I've got a little experience with coticules, and based on how Chess describes them and the methods he suggests, I can plainly see the reasoning paths he's taken and the mistaken assumptions he's made. Put it this way: If you are at all familiar with coticules and someone tells you to work from beveling without any dilution on a coti, then to rinse it and do 10 passes, and at the same time says that most coticule finishes are 4-8k, you're going to say "well duh". The shame would be if people who didn't have experience with coticules actually assumed that the results Chess gets were anything other than derived from his methods, since he is claiming that they're in fact the limits of the stones, which dozens of people with thousands of coticules worth of experience can flat out state is absolutely incorrect.

 

[thanks]

As for wear concerns, this is most likely what is considered a hard Coticule to begin with, but just to show you the average "life expectancy" of your stone;

http://coticule.be/the-cafeteria/message/9794.html

 

[Bart]

i hope this will help people who is struggling to use Coticules.

If it were true, I would thank you for that.

At first i should mention coticules are natural stones.
Their grit will differ from 4k-8k level sometimes 10k.
I have seen always People advice to use Coticules by making slurry ,then diluting etc.
i Think this is misguiding.

My underlining.
For over 2 years now, you are not trying to come up with a procedure to get the best possible results on Coticule hones, but instead you are working hard to disprove what obviously works for some of us.
I personally use a single Coticule on every razor I hone. (note that I use the verb "to hone", which is not the same as thing as "to repair" a damaged (chipped) edge. For that I usually add a DMT 600 to the job). I don't do this to proof it can be done, because that I have proofed long time ago. I do this because I find it a fairly quick, hassle free way to sharpen a razor, and because I like the way such an edge shaves.

I would prefer it, if you stopped trying to disprove, and started to come up with a procedure that works too. Don't tell me that I need other hones, because that is completely besides the issue. I am content with the edges on my razors.
If you can tell me something that brings down the average time it takes me to hone the razors people send me, from about the current 7-10 minutes to, let's say, 5 minutes, then please do. I'm all ears. I host a website about Coticules. If it works, I'll put it on the front page and call it Shamicot, so that our members can easily discern between that method and the others we have published on the website. No, I'm not joking.

Question is can you use it with slurry and sharpen razor faster?
Yes you can but it is not the proper way to use it and it is not faster.

We've seen old barbers use slurry, Ardennes Coticule talks about using abrasive milk, and there are references in old text that speak about "sharpening lather". That does not necessarily mean the same as "shaving lather". Also, Coticules are sometimes referenced as "soap stones". Yes, that could mean they put soap on the stone, but it could just as easily refer to the soap-like slurry that was created on the stone before sharpening.
But whatever they did or did not do in the past, I shave in the present, and I don't mind straying from tradition, if that improves my end result. Nonetheless, the use of slurry on a Coticule can hardly be called a recent invention...

you are decreasing life span of the stone.

Yes, it will only last about 2 lifetimes instead of 4.
I have not yet read or heard of one guy who needed to replace his Coticule because he wore though his first one.
Of course a guy that sharpens "1000's" of razors in a few years time, could wear one out. But such a person would be a professional user, hence I believe he could afford another one. What's the going rate for sharpening a razor? 20$?

you will get maximum out of the coticule spending less time just by using water then using it with slurry then diluting and getting the final edge from the stone.
Let me explain this a little more.
if you take the coticule
then make slurry and hone the blade.
then diluting slurry slowly until you will end up with water and make strokes curtain amount to get final edge from the stone.(takes 300-500 strokes total .sometimes more)
This process will take more time then just using your coticule with water without making slurry etc.
Go head test yourself and see what happens. good luck

I have tried that. The initial dilution method used regular X-strokes for the entire procedure. Later on, I found out that doing slightly pressured sets of strokes that stay for 10-15 passes on the same side of the blade before flipping it over, speeds up the process and makes it easier to do. It was only a couple weeks later that I started thinking "What if those pressured strokes make the entire dilution strategy redundant?". So I ran some trials to see if I could replace the dilution phase by the same amount of strokes on only water.
It didn't work. I augmented the strokes on water, but that didn't work either. I tried it on a Les Latneuses that's so fast on water that it shows black discoloration within a few laps. I got it to work on that one, but only after one intermediate bevel setting step on halfway thinned slurry. You'll argue that my bevels coming of a slurried Coticule are so dull that they can't be finished well. You're right, they need something to make them keener, before they can be finished. The dilution strategy works for that. One can also do it with a go-between synthetic water hone in the 8K grit range. (A procedure described in Coticule.be's articles base).

You will spend less time .
hope this helps.

No, it doesn't help. Your ongoing quest to disprove anything that doesn't fit your bible, is actually becoming an annoyance and a drainage of my precious time.

Bart.