I don't disagree with much of what you say but if you are getting a close comfortable shave with a SR why do you need "lots of time to heal"?As stated above, a SR razor can be honed to any degree of sharpness you want. Moreover, there is a great range of sharpness to DE blades so a particular SR may be sharper than a particular DE blade or the reverse is possible as well.
May I suggest that sharpness is important but not paramount. It is possible for an edge to be too sharp. While I don't use a DE, I do use a SE for clean up and the back of my neck after a SR shave. I can tell you that Feather SS single edge blades are too sharp. I always get a weeper with a fresh Feather FHS-10 blade on the first shave no matter how careful I am. After that, everything is fine until I think that I need to replace the blade.
I really don't want a SR edge that is that sharp. It means that my technique would have to be perfect every time to avoid weepers. I just want it sharp enough to give me a close comfortable shave with no drama and no blood. That is less sharp than a fresh Feather blade.
The big difference between SR shaving and DE shaving aside from the technique is the safety bar. Think about it. You spent all that time making that beautiful cushiony, slick lather and then before your DE blade edge gets to it the safety bar has wiped it away!
With a SR, there is nothing to remove the lather from your face except the blade edge, and I would contend that it is much easier to control shave angle with a SR than with a DE. As a result, it is a much gentler shave than any razor with a safety bar. (An open comb safety razor gets closer to that).
So, my experience has been that the SR is much gentler to my skin, and with two and a half passes gives me a close comfortable shave that I can stretch to three days with an electric razor touch up on day thee. This give my face lots of time to heal and my skin looks 10-20 yrs. younger than I am. So say the ladies!
How sharp is sharp enough? (SR vs DE)
- Thread starter KrstGor
- Start date
I don't disagree with much of what you say but if you are getting a close comfortable shave with a SR why do you need "lots of time to heal"?
My skin is pretty sensitive. I would have problems if I shaved every day. I would have to with something like a Track II, and I used to. My skin didn't like it. With a SR, I can easily get two days out of a shave, and stretch it to three. By the end of the second day, my skin feels as if I had not shaved. That is what I mean by "heal".
If pointing out typos makes you feel better, knock yourself out.
I have no preference either way to how anyone finishes their razor.
I'm simply pointing out the obvious fact that the bevel surface means nothing, something that seems to be the point of argument by those that don't know.
If you are trying to help someone - support them with facts. It helps nobody to do otherwise.
If someone is saying the bevel needs to be sharp aren't they actually saying/meaning that the edge needs to be sharp?
After all "we" talk about "setting the bevel". That actually just means sharpening the edge by reducing the bevel sides until it becomes the edge. If the bevel means the sides then of course the sides don't cut anything.
I really don't mean to fuel the running dispute, but isn't it possible that both the edge and the bevel play a role in the results of the shave?
The edge is the only part that will cut the whiskers. It must be sharp enough to do so or no shave.
But, if there is even the slightest pressure, the skin will deform from "flat" and make contact with the bevel. I can imagine (no science here) that the more irregular the bevel, the more irritation. That would be compounded by more pressure or more strokes over the same surface.
Is it possible that "sharp" pertains to the edge and defines how easily the whiskers are cut, while the irregularities in the bevel relate to "smoothness" and define (or at least contribute to) the comfort?
The edge is the only part that will cut the whiskers. It must be sharp enough to do so or no shave.
But, if there is even the slightest pressure, the skin will deform from "flat" and make contact with the bevel. I can imagine (no science here) that the more irregular the bevel, the more irritation. That would be compounded by more pressure or more strokes over the same surface.
Is it possible that "sharp" pertains to the edge and defines how easily the whiskers are cut, while the irregularities in the bevel relate to "smoothness" and define (or at least contribute to) the comfort?
What does irregularities in the bevel mean (being sincere here)? Is the bevel just where the two sides come together to form the edge? I think irregularities in the edge affect smoothness. What does an irregular bevel even mean?
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
I used to believe that a straight razor could never be as sharp as a DE blade. Then as the pasted balsa came together for me, I became a believer. No, most straight razors honed by most honers will not be as sharp as a DE blade. But some will.
Absolute sharpness as defined by raw cutting power is not the only parameter to be concerned with. And a less sharp blade can be wielded skillfully enough to give a better shave than the DE blade. Or vice versa.
How sharp is sharp enough? For me, it is matching a good DE blade. It is ability to go ATG under the chin on the first pass. All the sharpness I can possibly use. The physical limits of the steel. 12k/1u is just the beginning.
Sharpness means different things to different people. To me it means effortless push cutting.
Absolute sharpness as defined by raw cutting power is not the only parameter to be concerned with. And a less sharp blade can be wielded skillfully enough to give a better shave than the DE blade. Or vice versa.
How sharp is sharp enough? For me, it is matching a good DE blade. It is ability to go ATG under the chin on the first pass. All the sharpness I can possibly use. The physical limits of the steel. 12k/1u is just the beginning.
Sharpness means different things to different people. To me it means effortless push cutting.
I refer to the "apex" as the edge. The bevels are the flat, polished surfaces that the hone creates between the edge and the body of the blade. My understanding is that though they are "mirror polished", they are not flat at high magnification, as depicted in the illustrations previously posted.
No, nothing is flat or even at high magnification.
An open-comb safety razor does indeed help to explain things. Recently, I picked up a vintage, flat-head safety razor. In shaving with it, having only used straights for the past eight years, I noticed that there were some areas beneath my jawline that showed traces of the razor's comb via partial lather removal. Elsewhere, the lather removal had been complete. From this, I concluded that when my angle of approach had been correct, it was the blade that had removed the lather, whereas in the trace areas revealing the comb, the angle had not be correct, hence the traces. From this, I would think that an analogous solid bar safety razor would not be removing the lather via the bar, if properly used, but rather by the blade like a straight razor. Beyond this, the lather's conditioning may already have penetrated the skin's surface, leading to a benefit, even if the lather is no longer present on the surface.
- Thread starter
- #51
So, you use a SR, a SE razor with Feathers and an electric razor, as well? WTH?
And you get yourself nicked no matter what.
Dude, I wouldn't take much advise from you. No hard feelings
- Thread starter
- #52
Same here - To me it means effortless push cutting - couldn't agree more.
That being said, is it reasonable to assume that after a certain level of sharpness, further sharpness will become irrelevant, as it won't add to that effortless cutting capability?
I'm looking forward at understanding what that level is. I use Feather DE blades in my Muhle R41, which is considered extremely aggressive. I don't know why, as I can't honestly recall when was the last time I nicked myself with it. My shaves are BBS. I also use the same Feather blades in Parker SRX shavette from time to time. My technique with shavette is fairly limited and I got a mild irritation on the left side of my lower neck the other day. Other than that, glass smooth no irritation.
So, long story short - what stones or else is needed to get a SR blade to the level of sharpness similar to Feather DE blades?
Will 12K Naniwa suffice?
For me it’s shaving me comfortably, BBS without irritation. Currently, 1um is plenty, Black Arkansas is too much
sharpness is not everything, and it’s a subjective term unless people actually measure it with a standardized scientific protocol
this is the type of thread that makes me think people should be enjoying their shaves rather than proving their point to someone else..
sharpness is not everything, and it’s a subjective term unless people actually measure it with a standardized scientific protocol
this is the type of thread that makes me think people should be enjoying their shaves rather than proving their point to someone else..
Slash McCoy
I freehand dog rockets
For some, maybe. To me, and many others, the steel is physically incapable of taking an edge too sharp to be appreciated.
I also use Feather DE blades in my shavettes which I rarely use these days, and my DE razors which I use even more rarely. That blade is my sharpness benchmark. I don't believe I have ever exceeded that level of cutting power with my edges, or at least not by much. But when I think I have matched the Feather, it is cause for great joy and satisfaction. The only way I have ever managed it was with lapping film and the balsa progression. If it is possible with other media, I don't have the skill to do it.
Maybe. Just maybe. With a honing lubricant that provides the right amount of buffering, and gradually diminishing pressure and enough laps, maybe. I have shaved with a couple of Jnat edges that pushed into the realm of hyper-sharpness. Best and most consistent results will be from the pasted balsa progression which is the cornerstone of The Method. For the three stage balsa progression a good 12k Naniwa edge makes a fine starting point.
- Thread starter
- #55
Slash,
I find your answers (not only to this Q) so valuable and helpful, thanks so much Sir!
I guess I'll give it a go with the 12K stone and if the razor cuts effortlessly through my beard than that's that. if not, I'll explore alternatives.
OK Bat Man.So, you use a SR, a SE razor with Feathers and an electric razor, as well? WTH?
And you get yourself nicked no matter what.
Dude, I wouldn't take much advise from you. No hard feelings
Riddle me this: How do you shave the back of your neck with a straight razor?
- Thread starter
- #57
I don't shave the back of my neck, never had TBH.
Normally, I go to a barber's shop for a haircut, roughly once a month. Now with the lockdown, my wife does it.
I actually shave the back of my neck every shave, just habit.
I go blind after starting at the hairline and work my way around. Its not hard.
Maybe I am Bat Man
For me the bevel is NOT the edge - obviously.
My point all along is that the bevel does not need to be polished to a ridiculous micron level as suggested.
The bevel may be anything from very hazy to polished or anything in between and any of them may supply a terrific shave.
The problem and misconception when learning is "my bevel is mirror polished but the shave are not good" or "Its hard to see any scratches on the bevel yet it still doesn't shave well"
Its because the bevel is not what you should be looking at - it is irrelevant. The edge is what matters and only the edge.
The statements about a half micron difference in relation to the bevel causing a harsher shave is absurd.
Its not the difference in micron finish on the bevel - its the affects of each on the edge itself.
Its like saying with two identical cars - the shinier one is faster.
I've done the back of my neck a few times. Never had any trouble, but still freaks me out. You make a (really bad) mistake at the throat and at least you'll have time to realize you screwed up. Back of the neck though? Dead before you hit the floor.
Once when shaving I didn't like the grip I had on the blade, so I propped it against something and shifted my grip. That thing was my face, and the thing that stopped the blade was my Zygomatic bone. I don't THINK I'd ever do something that stupid again... but...
Once when shaving I didn't like the grip I had on the blade, so I propped it against something and shifted my grip. That thing was my face, and the thing that stopped the blade was my Zygomatic bone. I don't THINK I'd ever do something that stupid again... but...
- Thread starter
- #60
You'll soon have all the waxing fanatics telling you how a mirror shine polished car is faster!I actually shave the back of my neck every shave, just habit.
I go blind after starting at the hairline and work my way around. Its not hard.
Maybe I am Bat Man
For me the bevel is NOT the edge - obviously.
My point all along is that the bevel does not need to be polished to a ridiculous micron level as suggested.
The bevel may be anything from very hazy to polished or anything in between and any of them may supply a terrific shave.
The problem and misconception when learning is "my bevel is mirror polished but the shave are not good" or "Its hard to see any scratches on the bevel yet it still doesn't shave well"
Its because the bevel is not what you should be looking at - it is irrelevant. The edge is what matters and only the edge.
The statements about a half micron difference in relation to the bevel causing a harsher shave is absurd.
Its not the difference in micron finish on the bevel - its the affects of each on the edge itself.
Its like saying with two identical cars - the shinier one is faster.
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