How sharp is sharp enough? (SR vs DE)

[stone and strop]

That is interesting. Maybe the microserrations on a honed SR work better in grabbing the whiskers than a coated, non serrated (by additional coatings etc) DE blade.

No, I don't think so. One of the blades was great on the first shave and as smooth or even a touch smoother than a straight (certainly comparable) then ok on the second shave and failed on the third.
The other blade tested was not sharp enough on the first outing meaning it was not as sharp as the straight. Other blades may fair better.
I'm pretty sure a good majority of them would be comparable for a couple shaves at least.
I'm also pretty sure some are not.

 

[KrstGor]

It's not about sharpness. As stated above there are people that have the skill to make their straight razors extremely sharp as well as there are large differences in DE blade sharpness. Let us assume that we have a straight razor and a DE blade that are both just as sharp and that the straight razor weighs exactly as much as the DE razor with the blade loaded into it. The shaving experience will even so be very different.

As stated above a straight razor blade is much longer than a DE blade further more you have a very small span on the angle that a straight razor can be held at while shaving before it begins to cut skin instead of stubble. This means that any self preserving straight razor shaver must be very alert not to cut himself and thus he most likely is more aware of the skin pressure he applies. Furthermore even if both the DE shaver and the straight razor shaver let the the weight of the razor do the job the weight of the longer straight razor blade is distributed over a much larger area of skin so the average pressure would be much lower.

So given the same total weight, sharpness and same level of proficiency the straight razor shaver will get a smoother shave since the weight is distributed over a larger area and he doesn't have the luxury of the DE shaver too be able to be a bit sloppy with the blade angle.

In short none of the alternatives are better than the other, but the DE shaver has an easier shave while the straight razor shaver most likely will have a smoother shave.

The part that I don't get is the smoothness and closeness of the shave.

Everyone seems to claim that a SR gives a much smoother, closer shave. I just wonder how is that possible. I mean, it's still just blade cutting the hair... is it not?

I get glass-smooth BBS with my Muhle R41, if I let my beard grow for 3-4 days and do a proper prep work. But then, I never shaved with a SR... so probably much to discover still

 

[KrstGor]

I prefer my straight edges over Feather blades (or any other DE blade) in both sharpness and smoothness. This is my experience, yours might be different.

I've ZERO experience, hence the Q ;-)

 

[camoloc]

The part that I don't get is the smoothness and closeness of the shave.

Everyone seems to claim that a SR gives a much smoother, closer shave. I just wonder how is that possible. I mean, it's still just blade cutting the hair... is it not?

I get glass-smooth BBS with my Muhle R41, if I let my beard grow for 3-4 days and do a proper prep work. But then, I never shaved with a SR... so probably much to discover still

I'm only six shaves in with an SR but will report what I've already found....

areas around my chin, cheeks, and area under lower lip are the smoothest I've seen. I'll put it up against the R103 I have, GEM Damaskeene, and 1912 GEM Minute Man.

the bigger thing is if I do my job correctly, smooth and irritation free. I came to this conclusion by how it feels before/after shave and......watching the time of stubble return (with GEMs I'm used to 1300 when I shave at 0530)

camo

 

[stone and strop]

The part that I don't get is the smoothness and closeness of the shave.

Everyone seems to claim that a SR gives a much smoother, closer shave. I just wonder how is that possible. I mean, it's still just blade cutting the hair... is it not?

I get glass-smooth BBS with my Muhle R41, if I let my beard grow for 3-4 days and do a proper prep work. But then, I never shaved with a SR... so probably much to discover still

Yep, its just cutting hair.
As Camoloc has said, its what you feel or don't feel after a shave. With a DE I notice stubble back much sooner.
I can feel when shaving that it is closer as well. I really pull in using a straight razor - something I can't do as well with a DE. When the skin is stretched well, shaved, then relaxed, the hair is actually below the skin.
Half hour to an hour after shaving I cannot feel any stubble even with the skin pulled - that's close!
With good experience honing it is just as smooth as well.

 

[steveclarkus]

Its ok to disagree, but you are incorrect.
Its the edge and nothing but the edge. The surface of the bevel is irrelevant.
Natural stones leave quite a varied surface yet they can shave fantastic, so how can that be? Why would people who have honed for many years use them?

You only have experience with film so not sure what you are basing this conclusion on.
.25 Micron vs .5 or.1 - really? I would bet if you used a proper microscope you would see your edge breaking down and giving you a slightly harsher shave. Its not the bevel, sorry.

Feel free to reach out to a senior member who you think has tons of experience and ask them. They will tell you.

I have to disagree with this. I’ve used jnat edges as well as .1 finished edges and while an extremely subtle difference, both shave well and comfortably. A well finished 1um (14k) edge is hardly distinguishable from a proper jnat edge providing the film edge is executed well. It takes as much experience with film as any other method. The diamond finishes polish the edge and the .1um is the grit that achieves the comfortability. I’ve used film for two years and there is dramatic improvement achieved through continued honing with film. Microscopes don’t shave.

 

[seattleshaver]

I think it's possible to shave with a straight and get a little closer than with a DE so if you used to get a 5 o'clock shadow with a DE, with a straight you might get a 9 o'clock shadow.

I also think it's just due to the length of the blade, skin stretching, etc. It's also harder to shave the smaller, more rounded areas of your face due to the length of the blade. So, until you have a lot of experience and maybe even after you have a lot of experience, there might be some areas that you are able to shave closer with a DE.

The main reason for shaving with a straight, for me, is just for the fun of it. I shave with a DE much of the time.

I think many people will be disappointed if the only reason they want to shave with a straight is because they have been told that it's so much closer, more comfortable, etc. Do it for the fun or because of the challenge, not in spite of it.

 

[SliceOfLife]

De blades tested 30-200 or so on the sharpness tester when I had it. I returned it because it crumpled SR edges... they were too sharp to survive it. They tested 1-20 when they survived long enough to cut. Even edges that were crumbling would sometimes test in the 30s... better than all but the best DE blades. And with especially sharp finishes it was hard to even get a reading they cut the filament so easily. SRs are waaaaaaaaay sharper if properly honed. You’re basically comparing a disposable dollar store western chef knife to a $1000 sashimi knife. They’re made for different things. Double edge blades are made to be easy to manufacture, cheap, and durable enough to survive 20, 30, or more shaves with no maintenance. Straight razor blades were made to get as sharp as the steel possibly could while being durable enough to cut hair with maintenance after every single use.

 

[Alum of Potash]

How sharp is sharp enough? Sharp enough to get the job done without after-effects from my experience. For the last year and a half, I've been shaving with one straight razor, and one straight razor only, maintaining things with a leather strop, firehose linen, and a pasted strop as needed. The shave prior to the last one revealed tugging and a harsh result. Subsequently, ~8-10 laps on a black-pasted Tony Miller horsehide paddle strop, followed by ~60 laps on an old piece of Texan barber's hardware store, wiped out, Russian-finish shell-now-smoothed did the trick. A wonderful shave. Sharp enough for me. As for shavette and DE blades, they are generally sharp enough out of the box. But what to do if they prove too harsh? Or how to maintain them for weeks and months?

Sharp enough IMO, is a close shave yielding little to no burn in applying the alum block afterwards. Many roads to Rome in this regard. Whatever works for you, be it a straight or by other methods. As far as I can tell with straights, effective stropping is under-appreciated on the forums, rather than obsessing about stone finishers, and the HHT as consistently applied off the strop is a good indicator.

 

[Bazz_74]

Some very good points made on here and interesting to read, and i would add i am far from an expert on this but i would be very surprised if the flexibility of blades doesn't come in to the equation as well, SR's are pretty rigid, even extra hollow ground ones, whilst all DE blades are extremely flexible, even given the clamping that a DE razor applies to the blade there is going to be some flex at the cutting edge which in turn will translate to the feel during the shave.

I'm quite sure that most of my SR's that i've honed are less sharp than a DE blade, but i get closer and more comfortable shaves from them than with any DE experience.

 

[KrstGor]

Yep, its just cutting hair.
As Camoloc has said, its what you feel or don't feel after a shave. With a DE I notice stubble back much sooner.
I can feel when shaving that it is closer as well. I really pull in using a straight razor - something I can't do as well with a DE. When the skin is stretched well, shaved, then relaxed, the hair is actually below the skin.
Half hour to an hour after shaving I cannot feel any stubble even with the skin pulled - that's close!
With good experience honing it is just as smooth as well.

OK, let me put it this way - I normally get no or very slight razor burn. I have one "trouble spot" and that's the lower part of my neck on the left side. It's the only spot where I sometimes get mild irritation. Other than that, the rest of my face I am able to shave "glass smooth".

So, I wonder, is it smth. about the SR blade that makes shaving sensitive skin areas (i.e.: lower neck) more smoothly?

What does it mean to have a "smooth edge". That's what I don't understand, as in my very limited understanding, if smth. is smooth, than it won't be sharp. When you pros talk about the blade anatomy, blade angle, blade what not.... what that really means? How am I ever going to be able to tell what kind of blade it is? How do I differentiate between a "smooth sharp" and a "harsh sharp", if there is such a thing...?

Much obliged

 

[KrstGor]

How sharp is sharp enough? Sharp enough to get the job done without after-effects from my experience. For the last year and a half, I've been shaving with one straight razor, and one straight razor only, maintaining things with a leather strop, firehose linen, and a pasted strop as needed. The shave prior to the last one revealed tugging and a harsh result. Subsequently, ~8-10 laps on a black-pasted Tony Miller horsehide paddle strop, followed by ~60 laps on an old piece of Texan barber's hardware store, wiped out, Russian-finish shell-now-smoothed did the trick. A wonderful shave. Sharp enough for me. As for shavette and DE blades, they are generally sharp enough out of the box. But what to do if they prove too harsh? Or how to maintain them for weeks and months?

Sharp enough IMO, is a close shave yielding little to no burn in applying the alum block afterwards. Many roads to Rome in this regard. Whatever works for you, be it a straight or by other methods. As far as I can tell with straights, effective stropping is under-appreciated on the forums, rather than obsessing about stone finishers, and the HHT as consistently applied off the strop is a good indicator.

You've made me curious, I got to say.

My grandpa (who passed away 30 years ago) was a daily shaver and all he had was a leather strop and a small stone. I think that's what they call the "barber's stone". I remember that strop hanging on the bathroom door and the typical sound it produced when the old man stopped his razor. There definitely was no other maintenance tool. I can't tell how good his shaves were, as he had a gray hair and I didn't inspect his face with a microscope, but for what I can recall, he was always impeccably presentable - an Old World gentleman, who wouldn't leave the house without a morning shave and his shoes polished to a mirror shine. Go figure out... today with all the stuff we have, a million different stones, pastes, films, etc... I wonder if it makes any difference whatsoever, as the ultimate goal is to CUT HAIR in an effective and comfortable manner.

 

[alex1921]

If I am honest I have only had one guy give me a straight with an edge sharper than a DE (aljuwaiedak on youtube) but a few that have gotten IMO at that same level. I am new to DE and say I can get closer shave with straight (but I am new to DE still, closeness of shave is very close to straight). I can also hone a really nice edge up for me that cuts easily. Comparing my edges to DE, my edges are a lot more comfortable and my face feels better after the shave. However the DE IMO is decently comfortable, offers great shaves, and way smaller learning curve. Depending on edge I can do weight of blade or very small pressure.

As Seckin put it, I wouldn't try shaving with a straight unless you are looking to enjoy the ritual, otherwise DE is probably the way to go

I used to shave with a DE for years before switching to SR. Recently I acquired a DE from the BST here so after a 4 year hiatus I gave the DE a try.
So, half face shave with cape 650 finished on a naka kiita and the other half Wolfman 1.15 WR2.
Honestly both sides BBS, the DE side was slightly quicker. No irritation on either side. If I had to shave daily for work and the way I hate getting up in AM DE would be my recommendation.

For me SR is a hobby but if I needed pure utilitarian approach then I would use a DE. You just need to find the right razor/blade combo.

Of course the above are just my personal observation and everybody is different be it technique, skin sensitivity etc etc.

 

[steveclarkus]

With all of the above said, agreements and disagreements, I find the straight razor the best in all aspects of shaving. My preference of razors, best to worst are:

1. Straight Razor
2. Trac III
3. DE

All shave well - just my experience of more than 50 years of shaving.

 

[seattleshaver]

OK, let me put it this way - I normally get no or very slight razor burn. I have one "trouble spot" and that's the lower part of my neck on the left side. It's the only spot where I sometimes get mild irritation. Other than that, the rest of my face I am able to shave "glass smooth".

So, I wonder, is it smth. about the SR blade that makes shaving sensitive skin areas (i.e.: lower neck) more smoothly?

What does it mean to have a "smooth edge". That's what I don't understand, as in my very limited understanding, if smth. is smooth, than it won't be sharp. When you pros talk about the blade anatomy, blade angle, blade what not.... what that really means? How am I ever going to be able to tell what kind of blade it is? How do I differentiate between a "smooth sharp" and a "harsh sharp", if there is such a thing...?

Much obliged

You don't have to worry about being able to tell what kind of blade it is. If it shaves well, you're good to go.

Regarding sharp vs smooth. I think smooth sharp is just a more uniform blade. Think of a bread knife (serrated) and a steak knife. Both are sharp but one is smoother. Smoother doesn't mean dull. I think it just comes from a more uniform blade.

I don't have an problem shaving with an edge that comes from a pasted strop but many would say that edge is a harsher edge than one coming directly from a finishing hone.

None of these things are anything you need to worry about if you don't want to. Just hone a blade and shave with it. If it works to your satisfaction, great.

 

[KrstGor]

You don't have to worry about being able to tell what kind of blade it is. If it shaves well, you're good to go.

Regarding sharp vs smooth. I think smooth sharp is just a more uniform blade. Think of a bread knife (serrated) and a steak knife. Both are sharp but one is smoother. Smoother doesn't mean dull. I think it just comes from a more uniform blade.

I don't have an problem shaving with an edge that comes from a pasted strop but many would say that edge is a harsher edge than one coming directly from a finishing hone.

None of these things are anything you need to worry about if you don't want to. Just hone a blade and shave with it. If it works to your satisfaction, great.

Thanks, it's a kind of answer I was hoping to get .

Again, my idea is to get a Naniwa 12K and premium quality strop - linen/leather and nothing else.

Seems it's all I need.

 

[seattleshaver]

Thanks, it's a kind of answer I was hoping to get .

Again, my idea is to get a Naniwa 12K and premium quality strop - linen/leather and nothing else.

Seems it's all I need.

That is generally all you need if the blade is sharp initially and you don't mess that up while learning.

 

[stone and strop]

I have to disagree with this. I’ve used jnat edges as well as .1 finished edges and while an extremely subtle difference, both shave well and comfortably. A well finished 1um (14k) edge is hardly distinguishable from a proper jnat edge providing the film edge is executed well. It takes as much experience with film as any other method. The diamond finishes polish the edge and the .1um is the grit that achieves the comfortability. I’ve used film for two years and there is dramatic improvement achieved through continued honing with film. Microscopes don’t shave.

Natural stones leave quite a varied surface yet they can shave fantastic, so how can that be? Why would people who have honed for many years use them?

Microscopes don’t shave

If you could, please show a reference where I said that it did.

The irregular/hazy surface can be seen with the naked eye.
The fact that I see what is happening to my edge and you can't clearly is an improvement on what I think is happening.

By your logic a super polished bevel with a so so edge will shave better than a hazy bevel with a great edge.
What you are doing with your film is effecting the edge! It has NOTHING to do with the bevel.

As stated, you don't have to believe me. Ask someone else who knows what they're doing, maybe you will believe them.

 

[Tedolph]

As stated above, a SR razor can be honed to any degree of sharpness you want. Moreover, there is a great range of sharpness to DE blades so a particular SR may be sharper than a particular DE blade or the reverse is possible as well.

May I suggest that sharpness is important but not paramount. It is possible for an edge to be too sharp. While I don't use a DE, I do use a SE for clean up and the back of my neck after a SR shave. I can tell you that Feather SS single edge blades are too sharp. I always get a weeper with a fresh Feather FHS-10 blade on the first shave no matter how careful I am. After that, everything is fine until I think that I need to replace the blade.

I really don't want a SR edge that is that sharp. It means that my technique would have to be perfect every time to avoid weepers. I just want it sharp enough to give me a close comfortable shave with no drama and no blood. That is less sharp than a fresh Feather blade.

The big difference between SR shaving and DE shaving aside from the technique is the safety bar. Think about it. You spent all that time making that beautiful cushiony, slick lather and then before your DE blade edge gets to it the safety bar has wiped it away!

With a SR, there is nothing to remove the lather from your face except the blade edge, and I would contend that it is much easier to control shave angle with a SR than with a DE. As a result, it is a much gentler shave than any razor with a safety bar. (An open comb safety razor gets closer to that).

So, my experience has been that the SR is much gentler to my skin, and with two and a half passes gives me a close comfortable shave that I can stretch to three days with an electric razor touch up on day thee. This give my face lots of time to heal and my skin looks 10-20 yrs. younger than I am. So say the ladies!

 

[steveclarkus]

If you could, please show a reference where I said that it did.

The irregular/hazy surface can be seen with the naked eye.
The fact that I see what is happening to my edge and you can't clearly is an improvement on what I think is happening.

By your logic a super polished bevel with a so so edge will shave better than a hazy bevel with a great edge.
What you are doing with your film is effecting the edge! It has NOTHING to do with the bevel.

As stated, you don't have to believe me. Ask someone else who knows what they're doing, maybe you will believe them.

I am just saying that a jnat edge completely finished on natural stones by a very experienced honemeister feels the same to my face as does a well done
14k film edge. Perhaps not to you but my face is my only concern. I’ve worked with film for over two years with many razors and I expect my 14K edge is better than those who have used film less. Most of my razors are finished on balsa but I don’t do a balsa progression until I have shaved with the film edge and found it to be maxed out - sharp and comfortable. After the .1 balsa I do 50 laps on .1 balsa and then leather between shaved. I’m not saying my way is the best way, only that it is just as good. Also, where you said “effecting the edge”, you should have said “affecting”. Ok, i’m a smart ***.