Honing Frustration

[JBHoren]

Sigh. I spent hours yesterday, working to get a Valley Razor Co. (Little Valley, NY) straight razor "shave-ready".

1. Lapped my Norton 4K/8K stones, using the Norton lapping stone.
2. Over 300 up-and-back strokes on the 4K, but it wouldn't shave any arm hairs.
3. Lapped my Norton 1K stone, then 50 up-and-back strokes to re-establish the bevel.
4. Another 100 up-and-back strokes on the Norton 4K -- getting sharp.
5. Another 50 up-and-back strokes on the Norton 8K -- getting sharper.
6. 25 up-and-back strokes on my Spyderco 12K -- (should be) getting real sharp.

No pressure on the blade or spine. No angling of the blade on the stone. No taping of the spine. No joy.

Suggestions?

 

[AFDavis11]

It sounds like from your post that you should be sticking with the 8K. I've always found that whatever doesn't make it sharper is the thing to stop doing. Make sense?

 

[joel]

Personally, I hate Nortons. Sure, everyone has 'em and can recommend progressions, and there are all sorts of crazy schemes with them on how to get razors sharp - but frankly, at least for me, they waste my time. I don't know what it is about them, but it is TREMENDOUSLY easy to overhone a razor and get a wire edge in no time... even if you don't have a bevel established, etc etc. Frankly, I don't like Nortons. In fact, it's been a REALLY long time since i've dusted mine off and used it.

I find (for me) when I use the Norton, I ALWAYS have to use 3-5 other hones in conjunction with it to get where I really want to be. Lately, I've been using the DMT diamond plates almost exclusively, then doing just a few "finishing" strokes on finishing hones once finished with the DMT's. Unless the razor has a nice hair popping edge on it, I take some 3M blue painters tape - cover the spine/shoulder with one layer, then go to town on a DMT coarse plate. Within no time, it's worn the blue tape off of the shoulder (JUST the shoulder, still protecting the spine, etc from getting scratched/worn when turned) and provided the razor isn't in REALLY bad shape, I'm able to establish a really clean/beautiful bevel. After the DMT coarse, I jump to the fine for 30 or so strokes, the extra fine for 30 strokes, then the extra extra fine (3 micron stone) for 30 strokes and I've got an PERFECT bevel, a REALLY strong/sturdy edge, and a damn fine shaving razor with an edge that'll last a lot longer than off of the 8K of a Norton, and since there is no tape on the actual shoulder, the correct honing angle is kept, without having to use any tape, etc for honing touch ups in the future. Now, depending on the razor, or who I am honing it for, I then jump to my finishing stone(s) of choice. If I intend on doing a quick (yet very nice) job, I'll just finish on an escher, or on some green chrome.

Net time is VERY low, and above all, the results are SIGNIFICANTLY superior to that of a Norton, and in way less time. Remarkably, while the DMT stones cut way faster than the Norton (being that they are diamond) they don't seem to overhone the edge, or create a wire edge easily, so it's pretty hard to screw up, and they are pretty user friendly.

I did a little "speed honing" thing with Tim Zowada I've been meaning to post, whereby I sent him a razor I had that was dull (unable to shave arm hairs) and got it wicked sharp in 2 min, 17 seconds using a DMT 3 Micron diamond plate, as well as diamond paste. He said it was among the sharpest razors he had experienced.

Here's the edge of the actual razor I had send him, under magnification (done by Tim Z)...

By Tim merely adding a few strokes on Green Chrome, it was as good as good gets. Not bad at all for a 2 min, 17 second hone job. Adding in a few strops on green chrome, still puts you under 3 minutes. Granted, this razor was dull, but had a perfect bevel... if the bevel were in bad shape, it probably would have taken closer to 20 minutes, but even then, that's pretty darn quick. I am quite a fan of the DMT's, they work fast, well and NEVER need to be lapped. Even the Spyderco's will need to be lapped eventually, and the DMT's can also be used to lap stones, etc. All around, killer stones!

Getting back to your dilemma (sorry for the rant) my knee jerk is that your edge has been over honed. Take a wooden match stick, and lightly draw the edge across it several times, then go to the norton 8K side, give it about 5-10 strokes, then go to your Spyderco UF and give it about 10-15 and i'll wager it'll be a HECK of a lot better.

If not, we can do a little experiment - send me the razor, I'll take a look at it, see what's up, take it to my DMT's, and give you feedback/instruction on what was up. My guess is, either a bad bevel (sometimes it can take a looong time to work those out) or an overhoned edge. If it is a bad bevel and you have 'em, try diamond paste, as pastes work great for bad bevels... they won't correct the bevel, but they'll make the edge shave worthy (for the lazy) and if it's overhoned, try the match stick trick. If neither work, send it my way for a honing experiment.

Hope this helps...

 

[heavydutysg135]

I would recommend taking a look at this thread so that you can get an idea about where you are in the bevel creation stage: http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16533

It can take a LOT of work sometimes to set a good bevel on an eBay razor; however, once this is done then polishing it to a shave ready edge is fairly easy. I have always had good luck using the Norton after a proper bevel has been set.

 

[JBHoren]

I find (for me) when I use the Norton, I ALWAYS have to use 3-5 other hones in conjunction with it to get where I really want to be. Lately, I've been using the DMT diamond plates almost exclusively, then doing just a few "finishing" strokes on finishing hones once finished with the DMT's. Unless the razor has a nice hair popping edge on it, I take some 3M blue painters tape - cover the spine/shoulder with one layer, then go to town on a DMT coarse plate. Within no time, it's worn the blue tape off of the shoulder (JUST the shoulder, still protecting the spine, etc from getting scratched/worn when turned) and provided the razor isn't in REALLY bad shape, I'm able to establish a really clean/beautiful bevel. After the DMT coarse, I jump to the fine for 30 or so strokes, the extra fine for 30 strokes, then the extra extra fine (3 micron stone) for 30 strokes and I've got an PERFECT bevel, a REALLY strong/sturdy edge, and a damn fine shaving razor with an edge that'll last a lot longer than off of the 8K of a Norton, and since there is no tape on the actual shoulder, the correct honing angle is kept, without having to use any tape, etc for honing touch ups in the future. Now, depending on the razor, or who I am honing it for, I then jump to my finishing stone(s) of choice. If I intend on doing a quick (yet very nice) job, I'll just finish on an escher, or on some green chrome.

Net time is VERY low, and above all, the results are SIGNIFICANTLY superior to that of a Norton, and in way less time. Remarkably, while the DMT stones cut way faster than the Norton (being that they are diamond) they don't seem to overhone the edge, or create a wire edge easily, so it's pretty hard to screw up, and they are pretty user friendly.

Are you talking about these DMT hones?

• DMT DiaSharp Coarse 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone (Part Number: DMTD8C)
• DMT DiaSharp Fine 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone (Part Number: DMTD8F)
• DMT DiaSharp Extra-Fine 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone (Part Number: DMTD8E)

Who is this "extra-extra-fine" guy? And what do you mean by "go to town on a DMT coarse plate"? Is it an issue of number-of-strokes with no pressure, number-of-strokes with pressure, or something else?

 

[joel]

Are you talking about these DMT hones?

• DMT DiaSharp Coarse 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone (Part Number: DMTD8C)
• DMT DiaSharp Fine 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone (Part Number: DMTD8F)
• DMT DiaSharp Extra-Fine 8" x 3" x 3/8" Diamond Whetstone (Part Number: DMTD8E)

Who is this "extra-extra-fine" guy? And what do you mean by "go to town on a DMT coarse plate"? Is it an issue of number-of-strokes with no pressure, number-of-strokes with pressure, or something else?

The Extra Extra (3 micron) DMT plate is the DMTD8EE

As for the "go to town" it totally depends on the razor. If it's in really bad shape, I'll use a fair amount of pressure and keep going until I feel and see the bevel flatten. As I get closer and closer to where I want to be on the coarse plate, i'll gradually reduce the pressure, until there is no pressure. Then I move onto the other plates with zero pressure.

You can certainly do this with a Norton, however it takes a lot longer, and in MY opinion you don't get as good a result.

 

[joel]

Personally, I hate Nortons. Sure, everyone has 'em and can recommend progressions, and there are all sorts of crazy schemes with them on how to get razors sharp - but frankly, at least for me, they waste my time. I don't know what it is about them, but it is TREMENDOUSLY easy to overhone a razor and get a wire edge in no time... even if you don't have a bevel established, etc etc. Frankly, I don't like Nortons. In fact, it's been a REALLY long time since i've dusted mine off and used it.

I find (for me) when I use the Norton, I ALWAYS have to use 3-5 other hones in conjunction with it to get where I really want to be. Lately, I've been using the DMT diamond plates almost exclusively, then doing just a few "finishing" strokes on finishing hones once finished with the DMT's. Unless the razor has a nice hair popping edge on it, I take some 3M blue painters tape - cover the spine/shoulder with one layer, then go to town on a DMT coarse plate. Within no time, it's worn the blue tape off of the shoulder (JUST the shoulder, still protecting the spine, etc from getting scratched/worn when turned) and provided the razor isn't in REALLY bad shape, I'm able to establish a really clean/beautiful bevel. After the DMT coarse, I jump to the fine for 30 or so strokes, the extra fine for 30 strokes, then the extra extra fine (3 micron stone) for 30 strokes and I've got an PERFECT bevel, a REALLY strong/sturdy edge, and a damn fine shaving razor with an edge that'll last a lot longer than off of the 8K of a Norton, and since there is no tape on the actual shoulder, the correct honing angle is kept, without having to use any tape, etc for honing touch ups in the future. Now, depending on the razor, or who I am honing it for, I then jump to my finishing stone(s) of choice. If I intend on doing a quick (yet very nice) job, I'll just finish on an escher, or on some green chrome.

Net time is VERY low, and above all, the results are SIGNIFICANTLY superior to that of a Norton, and in way less time. Remarkably, while the DMT stones cut way faster than the Norton (being that they are diamond) they don't seem to overhone the edge, or create a wire edge easily, so it's pretty hard to screw up, and they are pretty user friendly.

I did a little "speed honing" thing with Tim Zowada I've been meaning to post, whereby I sent him a razor I had that was dull (unable to shave arm hairs) and got it wicked sharp in 2 min, 17 seconds using a DMT 3 Micron diamond plate, as well as diamond paste. He said it was among the sharpest razors he had experienced.

Here's the edge of the actual razor I had send him, under magnification (done by Tim Z)...

By Tim merely adding a few strokes on Green Chrome, it was as good as good gets. Not bad at all for a 2 min, 17 second hone job. Adding in a few strops on green chrome, still puts you under 3 minutes. Granted, this razor was dull, but had a perfect bevel... if the bevel were in bad shape, it probably would have taken closer to 20 minutes, but even then, that's pretty darn quick. I am quite a fan of the DMT's, they work fast, well and NEVER need to be lapped. Even the Spyderco's will need to be lapped eventually, and the DMT's can also be used to lap stones, etc. All around, killer stones!

Getting back to your dilemma (sorry for the rant) my knee jerk is that your edge has been over honed. Take a wooden match stick, and lightly draw the edge across it several times, then go to the norton 8K side, give it about 5-10 strokes, then go to your Spyderco UF and give it about 10-15 and i'll wager it'll be a HECK of a lot better.

If not, we can do a little experiment - send me the razor, I'll take a look at it, see what's up, take it to my DMT's, and give you feedback/instruction on what was up. My guess is, either a bad bevel (sometimes it can take a looong time to work those out) or an overhoned edge. If it is a bad bevel and you have 'em, try diamond paste, as pastes work great for bad bevels... they won't correct the bevel, but they'll make the edge shave worthy (for the lazy) and if it's overhoned, try the match stick trick. If neither work, send it my way for a honing experiment.

Hope this helps...

Note: My above post is MY opinion/results, and are not necessarily the same reflected by Tim. Tim's part in the above post is merely the fact that he took the picture, shaved with it, and felt the edge on the razor was quite good.

Hope this clears things up.

 

[gglockner]

I would recommend taking a look at this thread so that you can get an idea about where you are in the bevel creation stage: http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16533

It can take a LOT of work sometimes to set a good bevel on an eBay razor; however, once this is done then polishing it to a shave ready edge is fairly easy. I have always had good luck using the Norton after a proper bevel has been set.

Excellent post over at the SRP. There will always be more than one way to skin a cat, but I thought all the work you put into your post would have been received a bit warmer than it was.

Glen

 

[Thebigspendur]

My feeling is that the reason it wasn't received so warmly at SRP is because many see this whole honing thing as some mysterious mystical thing which has to be learned through time and practice. There is no cookie cutter approach to honing. Nothing simple. No doing A, B, C and you have a great edge. The closest guide to learning is the pyramid scheme. Maybe I'm wrong but thats kind of how I got it.

I think for someone starting out a guide like this is a great thing. As you get more experience you modify to suite your own needs. I think for someone who is a true honemeister maybe it is all natural innate skills but most of us will never be honemeisters and we can use all the help we can get. No?

 

[BroJohn]

Joel --

Regarding the DMT plates/"stones", you use them dry, right? No lube, oil, water, right?

-- John Gehman, yes, I really *don't* know...

 

[heavydutysg135]

DMT stones are supposed to be used with water, the spyderco series of stones are the only that I know of that are supposed to be used try.

 

[joel]

Joel --

Regarding the DMT plates/"stones", you use them dry, right? No lube, oil, water, right?

-- John Gehman, yes, I really *don't* know...

I use 'em with water. Sometime (depending on the razor, or what i'm doing) I'll add a touch of liquid soap to the water mix as well, which imparts a finer edge, and allows the razor to glide with more ease.