hi guys this is Thomas from Toronto. Have a question in regards to honing a straight razor. I own a Norton stone 8000 grit stone and Naniwa 12000 grit stone. Just curious how many round trips should be taken for each stone from the various videos that I watched they all suggest around 8 round trips. just wondering if that's the standard or if I need to go more to a really nice edge on it. thanks again.
honing a straight razor
- Thread starter Newbiestraightrazor
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At those grits, you are presumably touching up an already honed edge?
Try a dozen laps on the 12k, strop and shave and see what sort of improvement you get. I'd only go back to the 8k if the edge really starts to fall away.
Try a dozen laps on the 12k, strop and shave and see what sort of improvement you get. I'd only go back to the 8k if the edge really starts to fall away.
Moving to the honing area
For better advice, post photos of your razor with clear images of the bevels.
To answer your question, it depends on the condition of the razor, the preparation of your stone, (have they been lapped, and beveled) and your honing skill.
You should be able to maintain a razor with a Naniwia 12k, assuming there are no issues with the razor or edge.
With some Chrome Oxide paste 20-30k it should shave very well.
To answer your question, it depends on the condition of the razor, the preparation of your stone, (have they been lapped, and beveled) and your honing skill.
You should be able to maintain a razor with a Naniwia 12k, assuming there are no issues with the razor or edge.
With some Chrome Oxide paste 20-30k it should shave very well.
1st you want to make sure your stones are flat (million different ways, just google it to see what is best for you.
2nd, the 8k and 12k will be a great combo if the razor already had a shaving edge. Whenever it starts to tug I would go to the 8k then the 12k.
3rd, each razor is different so there isn't really a magic number. Your time on the 8k stone will depend on how much wear/tear the edge took. If I were to throw out a number range I would say between 20-50 laps would be a good starting point.
4th, assuming your edge is the exact same after the 8k then the amount of Laps on the 12k will probably end up being roughly the same +/- some laps.
A lot of variables can change everything up. Just hone and you will probably figure it out and google when running into walls. Very important for your set up to have flat stones though and razor in decent shape. Cheers
2nd, the 8k and 12k will be a great combo if the razor already had a shaving edge. Whenever it starts to tug I would go to the 8k then the 12k.
3rd, each razor is different so there isn't really a magic number. Your time on the 8k stone will depend on how much wear/tear the edge took. If I were to throw out a number range I would say between 20-50 laps would be a good starting point.
4th, assuming your edge is the exact same after the 8k then the amount of Laps on the 12k will probably end up being roughly the same +/- some laps.
A lot of variables can change everything up. Just hone and you will probably figure it out and google when running into walls. Very important for your set up to have flat stones though and razor in decent shape. Cheers
Right out the gate; we have nowhere near enough information to give you any advice that would be helpful.
First; what is your razor? A lot of what is sold as razors is simply decorative and will never give a good shave. The steel is not proper tool steel that can hold a good edge.
Second; was the razor shaving well in the past and only needs refreshed due to expected use (shaving) and no other type of wear or damage? If so, yes 8k and 12k, or even 12k will be all you need to get it back to shaving well. (Followed by stropping of course).
Third; Best case scenario... assuming by "round trip" you mean up the stone on one side of the razor, flip and back on the other side... No, 8 of those (I think most people around here call those X strokes) will not refresh a razor... unless you're doing that after basically every shave. Even for fairly fast stones, 30 is a more typical starting point for people... and depending on your usage, razor, and stone... it can vary pretty wildly. In some cases it may take 100+. It's rarely necessary to use two different grits for touching up as you indicate (8k and 12k); but some guys do like to do so (they usually justify it by arguing that the bevel profile changes over time and they want to restore that... other guys have argued that is not the case... in the end it comes down to preference)... but especially if you're doing that: 8 strokes on a 12k won't come close to removing the character the 8k leaves on a razor edge. Also, Norton and Naniwa use different scales for measuring their grit; so that Norton is closer to 4k or 5k on a Naniwa scale; not equivalent to an 8k Naniwa.
First; what is your razor? A lot of what is sold as razors is simply decorative and will never give a good shave. The steel is not proper tool steel that can hold a good edge.
Second; was the razor shaving well in the past and only needs refreshed due to expected use (shaving) and no other type of wear or damage? If so, yes 8k and 12k, or even 12k will be all you need to get it back to shaving well. (Followed by stropping of course).
Third; Best case scenario... assuming by "round trip" you mean up the stone on one side of the razor, flip and back on the other side... No, 8 of those (I think most people around here call those X strokes) will not refresh a razor... unless you're doing that after basically every shave. Even for fairly fast stones, 30 is a more typical starting point for people... and depending on your usage, razor, and stone... it can vary pretty wildly. In some cases it may take 100+. It's rarely necessary to use two different grits for touching up as you indicate (8k and 12k); but some guys do like to do so (they usually justify it by arguing that the bevel profile changes over time and they want to restore that... other guys have argued that is not the case... in the end it comes down to preference)... but especially if you're doing that: 8 strokes on a 12k won't come close to removing the character the 8k leaves on a razor edge. Also, Norton and Naniwa use different scales for measuring their grit; so that Norton is closer to 4k or 5k on a Naniwa scale; not equivalent to an 8k Naniwa.
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The 3 razors are all Dovo straight razors 5/8 blade.i usually do a straight shave once a week. They have all been purchased from the same place. the guy that's sells the razors actually gives them an extra hone on top of the factory hone. They shave great out of the box just the usual wear from use. in regards to the round trip yes back and then flip the blade to go the other way.
Awesome set up then. I would ask of they were honed with or without tape (just to keep the angles the same). Would just start with 1 razor that was tuggy and looks to have an even bevel.
Before starting just take a close look at the bevel on both sides. After that do 20 or so laps then check out the bevel to see if it looks like everything is getting hit. Wouldn't do more than 30 or so more strokes before finishing with 20 strokes on the 12k.
Number of strokes change based on a lot of factors. However I think the numbers I gave you should give the edge a bump without doing too much damage and gets your toes wet. Make sure the stones are flat though! Cheers
I would suggest that instead of directly shaving to test your honing results, procure some long strands of hair for testing the edges as you progress. You can buy some hair extensions on the internet, get black, or you can swing by a local salon and ask them to save you some 10inch or longer cuttings.
The Hanging Hair Test is accurate and quick and will reveal points along the edge that need attention. When you find a section that is not keen enough go back to your finest stone and while pulling the razor "edge leading" towards yourself, use your opposing hand's first finger and lightly touch near the cutting edge that weak-not-sharp-enough portion of the blade for a few passes from both A & B sides of the razor. This directs all of the action on that one spot. Often there is no real reason to re-hone the whole edge just because of one little area.
Alx
The Hanging Hair Test is accurate and quick and will reveal points along the edge that need attention. When you find a section that is not keen enough go back to your finest stone and while pulling the razor "edge leading" towards yourself, use your opposing hand's first finger and lightly touch near the cutting edge that weak-not-sharp-enough portion of the blade for a few passes from both A & B sides of the razor. This directs all of the action on that one spot. Often there is no real reason to re-hone the whole edge just because of one little area.
Alx
This is of course very good advice and I offer the following as much as an idle observation as anything else: One of the benefits of smiling razors is making this type of limited edge work very easy. Recently I dropped one of my Sheffield wedges and messed up a spot on the edge near the toe. The curvature of the edge meant that I could focus all the abrasion on the exact site of the damage and hone it out on a 6k stone rather than having to reset the bevel in its entirety.
Sounds good. As mentioned; you should confirm if the seller used tape in honing. If so; it's more complicated to touch up; basically you need to use tape every time you touch up as well. And you may need to know what type he used, how many layers, etc... there's a pretty big spread in how thick tapes people use can be.
Otherwise; a modern full hollow Dovo, with a good edge, you haven't dropped or chipped or anything? I'd say 30-50 passes on the 12k every 20 or so shaves should be fine... but I'm one of the worst people to answer. I collect hones; so I "touch up" after almost every shave just to try new hones.
Personally, I'd pretend I didn't have the 8k. You won't need it to touch up a razor and it's not coarse enough if you need to do any real "fixing" of chips or anything. Put it away until you decide to buy a beveling stone too and want to start honing eBay specials or need to fix a chip or something.
A good finisher (and Naniwa 12k is fine) can touch up a razor by itself without trouble.
Start with 30 strokes, strop and shave. Do another 30 strokes and strop and shave the next time (whenever you would normally shave next) and decide if this shave was better than last. If it's not definitely better than the last... congrats, 30 strokes was all you needed. If it is... do another 30 and strop and shave and repeat until shave stops improving. After 10 uses, 30 strokes, strop and shave. Better than the last shave? If no, try waiting 20 shaves before testing again... still not a noticeable improvement between shave 20 and shave 21? Then wait 30, etc.
That's just applying metrics to the process of feeling out when and how you want to touch up.
Don't worry about touching up too often... If you're properly using it; a 12k stone would take decades of touching up after literally every shave to wear out a razor.
Otherwise; a modern full hollow Dovo, with a good edge, you haven't dropped or chipped or anything? I'd say 30-50 passes on the 12k every 20 or so shaves should be fine... but I'm one of the worst people to answer. I collect hones; so I "touch up" after almost every shave just to try new hones.
Personally, I'd pretend I didn't have the 8k. You won't need it to touch up a razor and it's not coarse enough if you need to do any real "fixing" of chips or anything. Put it away until you decide to buy a beveling stone too and want to start honing eBay specials or need to fix a chip or something.
A good finisher (and Naniwa 12k is fine) can touch up a razor by itself without trouble.
Start with 30 strokes, strop and shave. Do another 30 strokes and strop and shave the next time (whenever you would normally shave next) and decide if this shave was better than last. If it's not definitely better than the last... congrats, 30 strokes was all you needed. If it is... do another 30 and strop and shave and repeat until shave stops improving. After 10 uses, 30 strokes, strop and shave. Better than the last shave? If no, try waiting 20 shaves before testing again... still not a noticeable improvement between shave 20 and shave 21? Then wait 30, etc.
That's just applying metrics to the process of feeling out when and how you want to touch up.
Don't worry about touching up too often... If you're properly using it; a 12k stone would take decades of touching up after literally every shave to wear out a razor.
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Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I resemble that remark!
Post photos of each of your razors, both sides, for better advice. Some razors have issues that can make them more difficult to hone and can easily be repaired. Many new Dovo’s have this problem out of the box from the factory.
Yea, the 12k should easily keep you shaving unless you damage the edge. The Naniwia super stone has a wide range, it can remove a small chip and finish to shave ready. Google (12k Chip Removal and Bevel Set). I removed a small chip in 80 circles and 206 laps to shave ready.
Depending on the condition of the edge and assuming minor micro chips 20-30 X laps should be a good start.
Tape the spine with a single layer of electrical tape. If it was taped it was probably with a single layer of electrical tape, if not, tape will only increase the bevel angle by a degree, not enough to make a difference. You will see a slight double bevel, no need to reset a whole new bevel.
Tape the spine until you master honing, then decide if you want to continue to use tape. Too many new honers have needlessly trashed nice razors learning to hone without tape. There is no downside to using tape.
First get some magnification, any 10-20x loupe will do or a $15 Carson Micro Brite 60-100x hand-held scope, better. Now look at the bevel and edge. Look straight down on the edge, if you see any shiny reflections that is where the bevels are not meeting or chips. Hone until all the shiny reflections are gone and you just see a dark grey line.
Even more challenging for most is stropping. You must learn to strop daily before and after shaving to properly maintain the edge. But a single errant stroke on the strop can roll the edge or a dirty strop can scratch and chip an edge.
For most new straight razor shavers they are touching up, repairing damage they have caused while stropping. Too much pressure or hard landing can break the fragile edge. It can take up to a year of daily shaving and stropping to master stropping, get to a point where you are consistently improving the edge with each lap on the strop.
The linen strop will clean the bevel of soap, water, skin, blood and rust, post shaving. If all that is not cleaned off the bevel, the razor will immediately begin to rust. Linen and cotton can be mildly abrasive and add a bit of lost keenness, pre and post shaving.
The leather strop is your last chance to polish, straighten and perfect the very cutting edge prior to shaving. The actual cutting edge is so thin it can only be seen with SEM magnification, it is also very fragile. Here too once the technique is mastered the quality and cleanliness of the leather can make a difference in performance. Buy the best quality strop you can afford. A good entry Tony Miller strop is in the $50-60 range and a lifetime purchase.
The Naniwia 12k super stone is notorious for loading up. The black swarf must be removed, so you are making full contact with the razor on the stone. If you continue to hone on the swarf, it can damage the edge you are making. So, lap your stone at the first sight of black swarf on the stone and especially, always prior to doing your finish laps. Here a 400-600 grit diamond plate is invaluable, though you can do it with 220 wet & dry, glue a piece to a glass tile.
Here are photos of an edge, looking straight down on the edge. The first photo is an edge with the bevels almost meeting fully. Note shiny reflections red arrows.
The second photo fully meeting bevels. Note no shiny reflections, just a dark grey line, red arrow.
Yea, the 12k should easily keep you shaving unless you damage the edge. The Naniwia super stone has a wide range, it can remove a small chip and finish to shave ready. Google (12k Chip Removal and Bevel Set). I removed a small chip in 80 circles and 206 laps to shave ready.
Depending on the condition of the edge and assuming minor micro chips 20-30 X laps should be a good start.
Tape the spine with a single layer of electrical tape. If it was taped it was probably with a single layer of electrical tape, if not, tape will only increase the bevel angle by a degree, not enough to make a difference. You will see a slight double bevel, no need to reset a whole new bevel.
Tape the spine until you master honing, then decide if you want to continue to use tape. Too many new honers have needlessly trashed nice razors learning to hone without tape. There is no downside to using tape.
First get some magnification, any 10-20x loupe will do or a $15 Carson Micro Brite 60-100x hand-held scope, better. Now look at the bevel and edge. Look straight down on the edge, if you see any shiny reflections that is where the bevels are not meeting or chips. Hone until all the shiny reflections are gone and you just see a dark grey line.
Even more challenging for most is stropping. You must learn to strop daily before and after shaving to properly maintain the edge. But a single errant stroke on the strop can roll the edge or a dirty strop can scratch and chip an edge.
For most new straight razor shavers they are touching up, repairing damage they have caused while stropping. Too much pressure or hard landing can break the fragile edge. It can take up to a year of daily shaving and stropping to master stropping, get to a point where you are consistently improving the edge with each lap on the strop.
The linen strop will clean the bevel of soap, water, skin, blood and rust, post shaving. If all that is not cleaned off the bevel, the razor will immediately begin to rust. Linen and cotton can be mildly abrasive and add a bit of lost keenness, pre and post shaving.
The leather strop is your last chance to polish, straighten and perfect the very cutting edge prior to shaving. The actual cutting edge is so thin it can only be seen with SEM magnification, it is also very fragile. Here too once the technique is mastered the quality and cleanliness of the leather can make a difference in performance. Buy the best quality strop you can afford. A good entry Tony Miller strop is in the $50-60 range and a lifetime purchase.
The Naniwia 12k super stone is notorious for loading up. The black swarf must be removed, so you are making full contact with the razor on the stone. If you continue to hone on the swarf, it can damage the edge you are making. So, lap your stone at the first sight of black swarf on the stone and especially, always prior to doing your finish laps. Here a 400-600 grit diamond plate is invaluable, though you can do it with 220 wet & dry, glue a piece to a glass tile.
Here are photos of an edge, looking straight down on the edge. The first photo is an edge with the bevels almost meeting fully. Note shiny reflections red arrows.
The second photo fully meeting bevels. Note no shiny reflections, just a dark grey line, red arrow.
You don't need photos or microscopes.
Leave that noise for the self proclaimed poobahs to dicker about.
Take one razor. One. Just one.
Make sure the stones are flat.
Like Ian said - Make sure you hone with or without tape like the source did - ask them to be sure.
Note - counting laps is, for the most part, not the way to go about this. Honing is done via feel. The amount of work depends on the edge condition, the stone's match to the steel, and the user's skills and preferences. It's not color by numbers.
Honing is done till it's done. For a reference point, mentioning lap counts can give an idea. But always rely on the stone and steel, not numbers.
When you are on your finisher - 12k, you don't want to be doing 50 laps. If you need more than, say, 20-25 laps you should start on a lower grit stone.
If - and I do mean if - you only have common shave wear, not outright tugging...
Put your blade on the 12k and do some honing, You should feel the edge 'come in' via feedback quickly.
It would not hurt to just start on the 8k for a short term and then some more on the 12k.
Do a little work and shave test the edge. See how it performs. Adjust the edge if it is not where it needs to be.
2nd note - your Norton 8k is really more like a 5k in the Japanese system.
3rd note - if your source honed the razors on a 20k, stone, or a Jnat or Escher, or used abrasive compounds to finish - your 12k is not going to exactly reproduce that edge.
Keep it simple. Start small, add to the equation as you go.
Leave that noise for the self proclaimed poobahs to dicker about.
Take one razor. One. Just one.
Make sure the stones are flat.
Like Ian said - Make sure you hone with or without tape like the source did - ask them to be sure.
Note - counting laps is, for the most part, not the way to go about this. Honing is done via feel. The amount of work depends on the edge condition, the stone's match to the steel, and the user's skills and preferences. It's not color by numbers.
Honing is done till it's done. For a reference point, mentioning lap counts can give an idea. But always rely on the stone and steel, not numbers.
When you are on your finisher - 12k, you don't want to be doing 50 laps. If you need more than, say, 20-25 laps you should start on a lower grit stone.
If - and I do mean if - you only have common shave wear, not outright tugging...
Put your blade on the 12k and do some honing, You should feel the edge 'come in' via feedback quickly.
It would not hurt to just start on the 8k for a short term and then some more on the 12k.
Do a little work and shave test the edge. See how it performs. Adjust the edge if it is not where it needs to be.
2nd note - your Norton 8k is really more like a 5k in the Japanese system.
3rd note - if your source honed the razors on a 20k, stone, or a Jnat or Escher, or used abrasive compounds to finish - your 12k is not going to exactly reproduce that edge.
Keep it simple. Start small, add to the equation as you go.
“Put your blade on the 12k and do some honing, You should feel the edge 'come in' via feedback quickly.”
The Hellen Keller/Jersey Medium Method, Dude!
The Hellen Keller/Jersey Medium Method, Dude!
May the force be with you, and you @Newbiestraightrazor will be rewarded with good edges
Don't get drawn to the dark side by the enlightenment of magnification.
Listen to the force that vibrates through the blade
Don't get drawn to the dark side by the enlightenment of magnification.
Listen to the force that vibrates through the blade
Rocks and steel, rocks and steel. Work it how it best fits you.
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