Help with a New SR

[JoeScho]

Bought a new Ralf Aust about a month ago whose blade sharpness was eh. I used it a couple of times, but I wasn't happy with the shave. I gave it about 50 strokes on a 12K stone, and this last shave was about a 3 out of 10. When I was done I still had a little stubble. Today I decided I may have to go with a marker and 4K/8K/12K. After the 8K, still was not shaving arm hair so I decided to give it a break before I got frustrated. I would run it across the stone on the 4K - same number of stroked on both sides with all of the marker coming off which seems to me that it should have the bevel set, then 8K then 12K. When I'm done, it just does not feel sharp nor shave arm hair.

Anyway, I am going to give it one more shot but may need to enlist someone who knows what they're doing as I think at this point I may be doing more harm than good.

Thanks

 

[silverlifter]

Honemeister

IntroductionThis page is part of Joel's Interactive Guide to Straight Razor Shaving. This list is intended to list all the active Honemeisters by country and region. The list was

www.badgerandblade.com

FWIW, you should never assume the bevel is set; always confirm it with a visual inspection under light. Looking straight down at the edge, make sure there are no reflections. Then try some other tests like shaving arm hair on the full length, thumbpad, tomato, etc.

 

[Shaun asleep]

I'm no expert, but from what I have gathered bevel setting should be done on a lower grit stone, like 1000 grit.

Which is why I'm taking possession of a 1000 grit synth tomorrow.

 

[rbscebu]

Remember, you should be able to shave your face off a 1k bevel-set. Not comfortably, but it should be able to shave.

The only true test is the shave test.

 

[Steve56]

If you’re in the US, send it to me and I’ll check out the edge and then hone it for you. If there’s something amiss with it, it’s usually pretty easy to spot.

 

[Empire straights]

I'm no expert, but from what I have gathered bevel setting should be done on a lower grit stone, like 1000 grit.

Which is why I'm taking possession of a 1000 grit synth tomorrow.

You could set a bevel on just about any grit stone, but how much time it takes...... that's another story. Well any stone that actually cuts steel and isn't just burnishing. I've set bevels on a coticule with plain water a couple times but it takes a while unless you're using the fast layer of a les latneuses. I've raise a big burr on a new Stanley plane iron in about 10 mins on a les lat with plain water, I was using pressure though so my stone went out of flat. I'll save that for thick washitas and Dalmore blues.

 

[Empire straights]

Bought a new Ralf Aust about a month ago whose blade sharpness was eh. I used it a couple of times, but I wasn't happy with the shave. I gave it about 50 strokes on a 12K stone, and this last shave was about a 3 out of 10. When I was done I still had a little stubble. Today I decided I may have to go with a marker and 4K/8K/12K. After the 8K, still was not shaving arm hair so I decided to give it a break before I got frustrated. I would run it across the stone on the 4K - same number of stroked on both sides with all of the marker coming off which seems to me that it should have the bevel set, then 8K then 12K. When I'm done, it just does not feel sharp nor shave arm hair.

Anyway, I am going to give it one more shot but may need to enlist someone who knows what they're doing as I think at this point I may be doing more harm than good.

Thanks

I'd take @Steve56 up on that offer. You may never get another edge like that again.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You should be able to reset a bevel on a new Aust on the 12k easily, especially if you used tape. Ink will quickly show you where you are making contact on the bevel.

You are likely not using enough pressure or using too much pressure lifting the edge off the stone.

Worst case an 8k.

Did you strop the new razor before shaving?

Post photos of the razor for better advice and take Steve up on his generous offer.

If you do, DO NOT strop the razor before your first shave.

 

[JoeScho]

You should be able to reset a bevel on a new Aust on the 12k easily, especially if you used tape. Ink will quickly show you where you are making contact on the bevel.

You are likely not using enough pressure or using too much pressure lifting the edge off the stone.

Worst case an 8k.

Did you strop the new razor before shaving?

Post photos of the razor for better advice and take Steve up on his generous offer.

If you do, DO NOT strop the razor before your first shave.

I did stop it before shaving. I have not honed many razors, but it seemed to me (maybe erroneously) that if you mark up the blade, and all of the marker comes off, you should be fairly close to a bevel. Maybe not.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yea, you rolled the edge stropping, completely normal. Stropping can be difficult to learn. It is all about pressure, keeping the spine on the strop and the flip. If you slam the edge into the strop, you can ruin the edge, if you lift the spine, even slightly, you can roll the edge. You need enough pressure to keep the razor on the strop, spine, and bevel, but not so much that you roll the edge.

The spine never leaves the strop.

And your strop must be clean and smooth.

Removing marker ink tells you that the bevel is flat. It tells you nothing about the edge.

Is all the ink coming off in one lap with no slurry?

Is all the ink coming off at the edge?

Look straight down on the edge with magnification, if you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, you have chips or a rolled edge.

First photo almost fully set bevel.

Second photo a fully set bevel.

 

[JoeScho]

Yea, you rolled the edge stropping, completely normal. Stropping can be difficult to learn. It is all about pressure, keeping the spine on the strop and the flip. If you slam the edge into the strop, you can ruin the edge, if you lift the spine, even slightly, you can roll the edge. You need enough pressure to keep the razor on the strop, spine, and bevel, but not so much that you roll the edge.

The spine never leaves the strop.

And your strop must be clean and smooth.

Removing marker ink tells you that the bevel is flat. It tells you nothing about the edge.

Is all the ink coming off in one lap with no slurry?

Is all the ink coming off at the edge?

Look straight down on the edge with magnification, if you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, you have chips or a rolled edge.

View attachment 1685761

First photo almost fully set bevel.

View attachment 1685762

Second photo a fully set bevel.

That's really easy to see in the first picture.
I'm not sure if all the ink was off with no slurry because I did like 30 passes across the stone - which made slurry - and the marker was off. I need to do less strokes (before I make slurry) and check.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[Staggers and Jags]

what am i looking for on the flat side. the bevels and what noit

 

[Gamma]

I would run it across the stone on the 4K - same number of stroked on both sides with all of the marker coming off which seems to me that it should have the bevel set....

nope.
The bevel is set when it's set. You can wish it to be set, pray that it is set, hope that it is set and even think or believe that it is set.
But if it isn't set - then it isn't set.
And it seems that your bevel isn't set.
Coming of an 8k without being able to shave arm hair is telling. Lets say you actually rolled the edge (contrary to the nannystate poobah theories - I don't believe this happens all that often actually) - then the 4k work would/should remove that. It would be hard for work on a 4k to not remove it. 99% of the time, you can reverse a rolled edge by stropping. Putting it on a 4k is almost guaranteed removal.
For sure your bevel was/is off. Probably not great out of the factory - what I like to call a 'marginal' bevel. It's very common.


Magic marker on a bevel being wiped off only tells you that are are making contact.
It does not tell you the quality of the contact.
It does not tell you how even the contact was
It does not tell you the condition of the apex.

First - never assume the bevel was good in the first place.
Second - if you are going to try and set a bevel, then set it - qualify it and prove it. Don't assume, guess, etc.

Honestly, you don't need slurry on synthetic stones. It gets in way after, say - 2k-ish work. It doesn't break down, it does not increase refinement. However, the slurry can slam into the apex and cause you to work harder to clean up what doesn't need to be there.

If you are using the Norton Nagura - note that it was intended to resurface the stone, and remove embedded swarf, not hone on. The grit in that 'nagura' is low and uneven.... not a choice medium for razor work. The Chosera nagura is better - but still, it's around 600x or so.

FWIW - if your 4k is actually the Norton 4k - I would say considering a better bevel setter might be helpful.

 

[JoeScho]

nope.
The bevel is set when it's set. You can wish it to be set, pray that it is set, hope that it is set and even think or believe that it is set.
But if it isn't set - then it isn't set.
And it seems that your bevel isn't set.
Coming of an 8k without being able to shave arm hair is telling. Lets say you actually rolled the edge (contrary to the nannystate poobah theories - I don't believe this happens all that often actually) - then the 4k work would/should remove that. It would be hard for work on a 4k to not remove it. 99% of the time, you can reverse a rolled edge by stropping. Putting it on a 4k is almost guaranteed removal.
For sure your bevel was/is off. Probably not great out of the factory - what I like to call a 'marginal' bevel. It's very common.


Magic marker on a bevel being wiped off only tells you that are are making contact.
It does not tell you the quality of the contact.
It does not tell you how even the contact was
It does not tell you the condition of the apex.

First - never assume the bevel was good in the first place.
Second - if you are going to try and set a bevel, then set it - qualify it and prove it. Don't assume, guess, etc.

Honestly, you don't need slurry on synthetic stones. It gets in way after, say - 2k-ish work. It doesn't break down, it does not increase refinement. However, the slurry can slam into the apex and cause you to work harder to clean up what doesn't need to be there.

If you are using the Norton Nagura - note that it was intended to resurface the stone, and remove embedded swarf, not hone on. The grit in that 'nagura' is low and uneven.... not a choice medium for razor work. The Chosera nagura is better - but still, it's around 600x or so.

FWIW - if your 4k is actually the Norton 4k - I would say considering a better bevel setter might be helpful.

Thank you.

I guess my current issue is that I would mark the bevel, take the marker off with some strokes, think the bevel is set, and the razor does little to nothing.

I try that multiple times with the same result and it’s frustrating.

 

[Gamma]

You're welcome.
Yep, the bevel is the edge. No bevel = no edge.
Get the bevel set, and the world is your oyster.

There's a few good videos about bevel setting on YT; might help to watch them 4-500 times. :0)

 

[Steve56]

Well, @Gamma is right.

But to put it more simply, you have to test for bevel set. When it passes the test, it’s set.

 

[JoeScho]

Well, @Gamma is right.

But to put it more simply, you have to test for bevel set. When it passes the test, it’s set.

That's the issue. So if I'm working with say 8K, and it does not shave (and I'm assuming this is the bevel set test or a tomato, or a few others mentoned within the many posts I've read) , keep going until it does? I have gotten some really nice edges on a few of my blades, but it appears that may be by accident.

I'm going to get this if I have to wear all of my blades down to the nub.

I have a gold dollar that I somehow got an edge that's so nice you can't even feel the shave.

 

[Steve56]

That's the issue. So if I'm working with say 8K, and it does not shave (and I'm assuming this is the bevel set test or a tomato, or a few others mentoned within the many posts I've read) , keep going until it does? I have gotten some really nice edges on a few of my blades, but it appears that may be by accident.

I'm going to get this if I have to wear all of my blades down to the nub.

I have a gold dollar that I somehow got an edge that's so nice you can't even feel the shave.

If it doesn’t shave/tomato at 8k, you’re doing something wrong. More wrong won’t help, you have to think about what’s amiss. Likely too much pressure or not hitting all the bevel. Try reducing your pressure by half or more and see if that helps.

Many of us, including me, have been in the same place. You’ll get there.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“So if I'm working with say 8K, and it does not shave (and I'm assuming this is the bevel set test or a tomato, or a few others mentoned within the many posts I've read) , keep going until it does? I have gotten some really nice edges on a few of my blades, but it appears that may be by accident.

I'm going to get this if I have to wear all of my blades down to the nub.”



Do not assume, it is, or is not fully set. There is no grey area. If it will not cut hair, the bevel is not fully set. You must calibrate your test. Look at the edge, ANY shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting.

Is this the same Aust razor?

If so, post a photo of the razor that shows the whole blade with as close up of the edge as possible, for better advise.

Put a layer of tape on the spine, ink the bevels with colored ink and do one lap on the 12k. Take a new photo. If ink is coming off the edge fully just do a set of Axe Method half laps, 10,5,3,2, & 1, to fully set the bevel on the 12k.

If it is not working, stop and figure out why. Do not ruin a nice razor learning to hone, but you won’t be the first.

 

[JoeScho]

“So if I'm working with say 8K, and it does not shave (and I'm assuming this is the bevel set test or a tomato, or a few others mentoned within the many posts I've read) , keep going until it does? I have gotten some really nice edges on a few of my blades, but it appears that may be by accident.

I'm going to get this if I have to wear all of my blades down to the nub.”



Do not assume, it is, or is not fully set. There is no grey area. If it will not cut hair, the bevel is not fully set. You must calibrate your test. Look at the edge, ANY shiny reflections are where the bevels are not meeting.

Is this the same Aust razor?

If so, post a photo of the razor that shows the whole blade with as close up of the edge as possible, for better advise.

Put a layer of tape on the spine, ink the bevels with colored ink and do one lap on the 12k. Take a new photo. If ink is coming off the edge fully just do a set of Axe Method half laps, 10,5,3,2, & 1, to fully set the bevel on the 12k.

If it is not working, stop and figure out why. Do not ruin a nice razor learning to hone, but you won’t be the first

Yes it is the same Aust razor. I think it came with an edge that needed a little more. @Steve56 took a look at the razor for me and it did have a few issues - I think I did it though. Steve did a nice job going over it and showing me my issues. I had a chip in it which I presume was from me honing it, and it had some rust probably by me not wiping it properly after honing.

My fault I believe.