Gillette ABC Scroll Identification

[mgreenb561]

I just picked up my first ABC razor. Appears to have been replated and it came with 2 heads/caps. Not positive but I think one is authentic and the other I just don't know. trying to authenticate and hopefully date.

Picture 1 is overview

Picture 2 you can see that plate is thicker on the left, but cap is thinner. They do appear to mate well on left but not so much on right(plate is thinner....cap is thicker-there's a ding on right cap corner that keeps it from laying flat though curvatures seem the same...should I attempt to tap that ding flat or just grind it off?
Also, I see posts on left cap considerably longer....without pulling out calipers, I'd say one is 1/4" and the other 3/8"

Picture 3 Left plate has serial # 890810 Nothing on right plate. There is a recess on center hole (left plate). On left plate, teeth are curved. On right plate they are squared. I understand they came both ways, but am suspecting that the teeth on the right plate are a little longer than pics i have seen(you can see it even better on picture 4)

Picture 4 Along w maybe too long teeth, the plate on right has Gillette logo Made in USA where left one does not.

Any help appreciated

 

[Breen]

I just picked up my first ABC razor. Appears to have been replated and it came with 2 heads/caps. Not positive but I think one is authentic and the other I just don't know. trying to authenticate and hopefully date.

Picture 1 is overview

Picture 2 you can see that plate is thicker on the left, but cap is thinner. They do appear to mate well on left but not so much on right(plate is thinner....cap is thicker-there's a ding on right cap corner that keeps it from laying flat though curvatures seem the same...should I attempt to tap that ding flat or just grind it off?
Also, I see posts on left cap considerably longer....without pulling out calipers, I'd say one is 1/4" and the other 3/8"

Picture 3 Left plate has serial # 890810 Nothing on right plate. There is a recess on center hole (left plate). On left plate, teeth are curved. On right plate they are squared. I understand they came both ways, but am suspecting that the teeth on the right plate are a little longer than pics i have seen(you can see it even better on picture 4)

Picture 4 Along w maybe too long teeth, the plate on right has Gillette logo Made in USA where left one does not.

Any help appreciated
View attachment 1674091View attachment 1674092View attachment 1674093View attachment 1674094

I'll preface by saying I'm not an expert, but I believe the original cap is the one with the shorter lugs, and the original baseplate is the one with the rounded teeth.

Here's my scroll

No engraving on the bottom side of the baseplate and see the rounded teeth and short lugs.

Here's a later Ball-End with longer lugs and the teeth are more squared off.

Here's the same 2 side-by-side photos. I think the cap and baseplates are mismatched in your pics.
I arranged these the same as yours with the opposite caps.

My guess is a previous owner dropped it, damaging the cap, and they swapped in a new cap & baseplate from a ball end.

I don't know if "tap that ding flat" is an option, but "just grind it off" doesn't sound very good at all.

Hopefully this info helps.

 

[Breen]

I forgot to mention, the date stamp in the original baseplate can sometimes have a letter at the beginning which can be considerably more faint than the numbers, so look for it very carefully.

If there’s definitely no letter at the beginning, and the date code is actually just “890810” then you’ve got a 1907 set there.

 

[mgreenb561]

I'll preface by saying I'm not an expert, but I believe the original cap is the one with the shorter lugs, and the original baseplate is the one with the rounded teeth.

Here's my scroll

No engraving on the bottom side of the baseplate and see the rounded teeth and short lugs.

View attachment 1674103

Here's a later Ball-End with longer lugs and the teeth are more squared off.
View attachment 1674105

Here's the same 2 side-by-side photos. I think the cap and baseplates are mismatched in your pics.
I arranged these the same as yours with the opposite caps.

View attachment 1674106
View attachment 1674108baseplaa

My guess is a previous owner dropped it, damaging the cap, and they swapped in a new cap & baseplate from a ball end.

I don't know if "tap that ding flat" is an option, but "just grind it off" doesn't sound very good at all.

Hopefully this info helps.

I'm thinking that baseplate on left has detent in center hole plus it has serial #. My cap on right (that hasn't been replated) also has short posts. Also baseplate on left and cap on right are thinner, and so I'm thinking you are probably right about the cap but plate w serial number is the match

 

[mgreenb561]

I forgot to mention, the date stamp in the original baseplate can sometimes have a letter at the beginning which can be considerably more faint than the numbers, so look for it very carefully.

If there’s definitely no letter at the beginning, and the date code is actually just “890810” then you’ve got a 1907 set there.

View attachment 1674118

Thanks.

I'll preface by saying I'm not an expert, but I believe the original cap is the one with the shorter lugs, and the original baseplate is the one with the rounded teeth.

Here's my scroll

No engraving on the bottom side of the baseplate and see the rounded teeth and short lugs.

View attachment 1674103

Here's a later Ball-End with longer lugs and the teeth are more squared off.
View attachment 1674105

Here's the same 2 side-by-side photos. I think the cap and baseplates are mismatched in your pics.
I arranged these the same as yours with the opposite caps.

View attachment 1674106
View attachment 1674108

My guess is a previous owner dropped it, damaging the cap, and they swapped in a new cap & baseplate from a ball end.

I don't know if "tap that ding flat" is an option, but "just grind it off" doesn't sound very good at all.

Hopefully this info helps.

 

[mgreenb561]

I'm thinking that baseplate on left has detent in center hole plus it has serial #. My cap on right (that hasn't been replated) also has short posts. Also baseplate on left and cap on right are thinner, and so I'm thinking you are probably right about the cap but plate w serial number is the match

The ding is soo small. Do you know if this is brass? Maybe i can get lucky heating it up and peening it out

 

[Breen]

The ding is soo small. Do you know if this is brass? Maybe i can get lucky heating it up and peening it out

I'm pretty sure it is brass, yeah. I'm not sure how well that gold plating will hold up through that process, but you could try it I suppose. Other folks might be stopping by your post here with hopefully a more educated opinion on what your options are.

 

[Wombat ESQ]

The latest date on the patent list on the case is Russia April 07, so it can't be before April 07 the serial number then lines up as an 07 serial, the serial numbers continued past 1918 and a 1918 has short pins yet long screw stud.
I would be inclined to say the serial plate with the short pin cap, as when serial numbers were stopped they still serialised the special models.

The cap is definitely brass, heating and peening, nah, I'd take it off by fine small file or a strip of sandpaper quarter inch wide glued to a stiff backing, or, honing stone? The diagonally opposite corner appears slightly rounded, looks to me like a sink tapper, a k a tap the corner on the sink to clear a clog type person. I have a 1918 plate with four bent teeth, that guy was a serial tapper, he got all of them, I'm not even attempting to straighten them until I can silver plate them, as annealing by eye is cherry red, so its going to do wonders for any finish or bring up heat scale and that's ugly brown.

Heating and annealing/straightening some won't do it, some give a 70/30 chance of success/breakage, so far I have a 100% success rate, one from one attempt is 100% success ... right.

Nice set, what is the top of the case like?

 

[BigJ]

LOVELY!! Congratulations!

 

[ks6c]

This might help...

Guide to American Button Company Pocket Edition Sets: Part One - Razors

This is part 1 of 2 in our introduction of the American Button Company pocket razor contracted by The Gillette Safety Razor Co. This thread will specifically focus on the razors themselves and part two (Cases) focuses on the cases. It is a joint project of Len (Oldguy) and myself and is meant to...

www.badgerandblade.com

-and-

Guide to American Button Company Pocket Edition Sets: Part Two - Cases

This is part 2 of 2 in our introduction of the American Button Company pocket razor contracted by The Gillette Safety Razor Co. In this thread, we focus on the cases themselves. Part one (Razors) focused on the razors. It is a joint project of Len (Oldguy) and myself and is meant to introduce...

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[romsitsa]

As stated above caps and combs are mixed up. The pocket design did not exist in 1907 and 1908 has lower serials, so it should be 1909 (the design changed in later years so a leading B can also be excluded).