First time using diamond pastes

[rbscebu]

@Robert6891, here is what your balsa strops should look like after lapping, pasting and ready to use.

​

The 0.25μm is probably has a bit too much paste on it.

 

[Robert6891]

@Robert6891, here is what your balsa strops should look like after lapping, pasting and ready to use.

View attachment 1517344
​

The 0.25μm is probably has a bit too much paste on it.

They both look like they have a lot more on them than mine do.

 

[rbscebu]

They both look like they have a lot more on them than mine do.

Good. I was worried due to how much paste that you applied.

I suggest that you actually shave after finishing on your 12k whetstone. That is really the only true test to determine if your edge is in a very good shave-ready condition.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

To the OP, as you can see by the varied post, opinions, and results, based on expectations, edge/bevel preparation, paste type and substrate.

Now, all posters are shaving with these edges, so they are all working. What you need to do is experiment and find the simplest method that works for you

Paste are/can be a double edge sword, depending on expectations and technique. They can polish to a high grit level, “(lowly”, ubiquitous Chrome Oxide is .50um about 20-30k grit, SG20 level polish), but some aggressive pastes, Diamond and CBN can thin an edge, that some steels cannot support.

The trick with all paste is to apply sparingly. 3-inch X’s ½ inch wide painted on with your finger for even distribution, works well with all the paste I have experimented with, you can always add more easily, not as easily completely removed.

Thick tubed paste can be thinned with water, oil, or alcohol for easier distribution, test a small amount to determine the carrier, then painted on with an artist brush.

As with most thing razor related, try it, and see if it works for you. Keep in mind that no two of us, are honing and shaving with the exact same razor, have the same skin and beard type, same stone progression and finish stone and honing, stropping and shaving experience.

It is not unusual that we have different results and opinions. Find what works for you.

If your honing was done right, likely you have too much paste or using too much pressure.

Look straight down on your edge with magnification, that will tell you. A few laps on the 12k will easily refresh the edge, worst case, re-paste the back side of your balsa, or try a piece of cardboard. You can always scrape the paste off with a card scraper or kitchen knife.

There is/are no magic hones or paste… it’s in the hands.

 

[Robert6891]

To the OP, as you can see by the varied post, opinions, and results, based on expectations, edge/bevel preparation, paste type and substrate.

Now, all posters are shaving with these edges, so they are all working. What you need to do is experiment and find the simplest method that works for you

Paste are/can be a double edge sword, depending on expectations and technique. They can polish to a high grit level, “(lowly”, ubiquitous Chrome Oxide is .50um about 20-30k grit, SG20 level polish), but some aggressive pastes, Diamond and CBN can thin an edge, that some steels cannot support.

The trick with all paste is to apply sparingly. 3-inch X’s ½ inch wide painted on with your finger for even distribution, works well with all the paste I have experimented with, you can always add more easily, not as easily completely removed.

Thick tubed paste can be thinned with water, oil, or alcohol for easier distribution, test a small amount to determine the carrier, then painted on with an artist brush.

As with most thing razor related, try it, and see if it works for you. Keep in mind that no two of us, are honing and shaving with the exact same razor, have the same skin and beard type, same stone progression and finish stone and honing, stropping and shaving experience.

It is not unusual that we have different results and opinions. Find what works for you.

If your honing was done right, likely you have too much paste or using too much pressure.

Look straight down on your edge with magnification, that will tell you. A few laps on the 12k will easily refresh the edge, worst case, re-paste the back side of your balsa, or try a piece of cardboard. You can always scrape the paste off with a card scraper or kitchen knife.

There is/are no magic hones or paste… it’s in the hands.

Today I gained some frustration and decided to start over. Reset the bevel and worked all the way through to the 0.1 strop. Results were much better.

Question regarding stones, and I'm not saying that my technique maybe doesn't still need some work here. I'm confident in my honing but know I'm far from expert. But I'm using sharpening supplies brand stones until the 12000 which is a Shapton Ceramic. How much would the quality of these stones have on the end results of my honing?

 

[Robert6891]

Good. I was worried due to how much paste that you applied.

I suggest that you actually shave after finishing on your 12k whetstone. That is really the only true test to determine if your edge is in a very good shave-ready condition.

There was a lot of time spent wiping them off. A nice stack of rags went into the wash after.

I do a test after each stone to see how it's progressing. After 3000 I can feel and hear it catch hairs but doesn't tree top. 8000 it will tree top a little. After 12000 it treetops fairly well and shaves nice.

While I don't doubt my technique could still use improvement, I am wondering if the quality of the stones I use could be a little bit of an issue. I have 220 - 8000 sharpening supplies brand stones. My 12000 is a shapton ceramic. I think the sharpening supplies stones are great for my woodworking tools, but am wondering if when I buy a set to dedicate to my razors if buying better quality stones will make a noticeable difference. Naniwa and Shapton aren't that much more than a Sharpening Supplies stone.

 

[rbscebu]

Hanging hair test, tree topping test, thumb pad test, etc. do not tell you if your edge is truly shave ready. Those tests only tell you how your honing is going as you go through your progression. The only test that does tell you if the edge is truly shave-ready is the shave test. Before hitting the pasted balsa strops, you should first max out the edge on your 12k to where is can no longer be further improved in shaving quality, not just a "nice shave".

The "quality" of your whetstones from bevel-set to up near your finishing whetstones should have little bearing on the finished result. This is provided that you know how to properly hone SRs on whetstones, remove all striations from the previous whetstone and the whetstone surfaces are properly maintained. It is the finishing whetstone (and possibly the one before it) that determine the final edge quality. I trust that you have a dedicated set of whetstones for SR honing and they are not used for any other purpose.

I am happy using cheap Chinese synthetic whetstones from bevel-set to about 10k. They require more surface maintenance but do the job well. Then I go onto a natural whetstone or some fine lapping films (down to 1μm or about 25k). I then shave a few times with that edge to ensure that it is truly shave ready. Then and only then do I hit the pasted balsa strops.

Some pictures of your SR and pasted balsa strops would help us a lot in guiding you.

 

[lightfoot]

There was a lot of time spent wiping them off. A nice stack of rags went into the wash after.

I do a test after each stone to see how it's progressing. After 3000 I can feel and hear it catch hairs but doesn't tree top. 8000 it will tree top a little. After 12000 it treetops fairly well and shaves nice.

While I don't doubt my technique could still use improvement, I am wondering if the quality of the stones I use could be a little bit of an issue. I have 220 - 8000 sharpening supplies brand stones. My 12000 is a shapton ceramic. I think the sharpening supplies stones are great for my woodworking tools, but am wondering if when I buy a set to dedicate to my razors if buying better quality stones will make a noticeable difference. Naniwa and Shapton aren't that much more than a Sharpening Supplies stone.

I would be inclined to think those stones are intended for tools and knives more than razor honing. If you have to work with what you have you might consider soaking them for a good while before use if you’re not doing so already. A good set of Shaptons or Naniwa stones can make a big difference.

 

[Steve56]

While I don't doubt my technique could still use improvement, I am wondering if the quality of the stones I use could be a little bit of an issue. I have 220 - 8000 sharpening supplies brand stones. My 12000 is a shapton ceramic. I think the sharpening supplies stones are great for my woodworking tools, but am wondering if when I buy a set to dedicate to my razors if buying better quality stones will make a noticeable difference. Naniwa and Shapton aren't that much more than a Sharpening Supplies stone.

Agree that these stones are probably tool stones, in that they have a wider grit distribution and less grit in them than good razor hones. Sharpening supplies know their stuff, so the first thing that I’d do is ask them about the suitability of these stones for razors. As long as they’re flat and you follow them with a quality finisher, ensuring that all previous hone marks are erased, they should work.

The quality of your finisher makes about 2-5% of the edge quality, your honing skill is 95-98% of it.

 

[Robert6891]

I would be inclined to think those stones are intended for tools and knives more than razor honing. If you have to work with what you have you might consider soaking them for a good while before use if you’re not doing so already. A good set of Shaptons or Naniwa stones can make a big difference.

They live in water! I store them in a tubbaware full of water. Take them out, use them, clean them off, back into the water. These stone, especially the 220 and 1000, are like sponges, even after soaking over night they're still thirsty. The 220 still never seems like it can get wet enough.

I bought them for sharpening woodworking tools and I think I'll soon make them dedicated for my tools. I just need to decide, do I want to go Naniwa or Shapton for my razors.

 

[Slash McCoy]

There was a lot of time spent wiping them off. A nice stack of rags went into the wash after.

I do a test after each stone to see how it's progressing. After 3000 I can feel and hear it catch hairs but doesn't tree top. 8000 it will tree top a little. After 12000 it treetops fairly well and shaves nice.

While I don't doubt my technique could still use improvement, I am wondering if the quality of the stones I use could be a little bit of an issue. I have 220 - 8000 sharpening supplies brand stones. My 12000 is a shapton ceramic. I think the sharpening supplies stones are great for my woodworking tools, but am wondering if when I buy a set to dedicate to my razors if buying better quality stones will make a noticeable difference. Naniwa and Shapton aren't that much more than a Sharpening Supplies stone.

I can't imagine the 12k Shapton Ceramic being inadequate, but I have never used it. I currently use 1µ lapping film or the 12k Naniwa Superstone, one or the other, before the balsa. It is the path well traveled, fine track record. But I don't think it is worth buying the Nanny 12k when you already have the Shap 12k. Now, lapping film is very cheap to get started with, so you might consider that. The benefits are no lapping needed, and as big a honing surface as you like. Very consistent results. Great setup for the balsa. Without the balsa, can be a good finisher with a few tweaks. Just film alone, no tricks and no balsa, can create an edge that some guys find "harsh". I don't feel it so, though if I try to hone on .3µ film without picopaper, I do notice that the shave is not very comfortable. Subjective.

As for the Sharpening Supplies stones, I think any inadequacy there would be fully addressable with your 12k. Then again, the 8k Naniwa is a very good stone, too. You could continue with the same lower grit stones you are using, and switch in the Naniwa 8k, let it do the cleanup work, and then the 12k just puts a nice polish on it and gets the edge as straight as a stone can get it.

If it is treetopping nicely after 12k, you are definitely in the running. Even with good treetopping, though, you should examine your edge and bevel carefully to make sure it is ready for the balsa.

It is important to have your stone lapping game optimized. Some will disagree but I find that a nice flat set of stones with no glazing on them makes a tremendous difference.

A USB microscope can be handy in some situations, and evaluating stones and the scratch patterns that they make on the bevel is one of them. Most of us hone with the heel slightly leading. What you can do is use a very consistent heel leading angle, but vary it enough at every grit change to tell easily what scratches came from the current stone and what scratches are left from the previous one. The important thing is that each stage completely obliterates all scratches left by the previous stage, replacing them with its own finer scratches. That is the essence of progressive honing. After you have done this for a while, you can easily spot scratches left over from the previous stone, but as a beginner to these techniques you might do well to use this heel angle shift technique to tell them apart. A 60x to 200x USB microscope will tell the story and give you pics to share.

One more thing. Before you leave the 12k, you might think about running 50 to 200 laps with dish soap or shave lather on the stone, and the lightest pressure you can manage, honing in hand. It should feel like the razor isn't even touching the stone. What that does is set up a buffer layer that holds the razor up a fraction of a µ I suppose, reducing scratch depth and slowing the stone down. When you really nail it with this technique, you get results like you would get from a next finer grade of stone. Another trick for optimizing your edge is to throw in a few pull strokes mixed in there with some very very light finish laps. Then finish the finish with some very short x strokes. Pretend your stone is only 3" long, and just use that much stone. Not sure why that works so well, maybe because longer strokes are needed to make fin or wire edge.

The best 12k edge you can get will give better results from the balsa than what the next best 12k edge you can get will give you. Diamond is normally a very aggressive cutter, yes, but when it is deeply buried in the grain of the balsa and you take it out to 200k grit, and use crazy light pressure, it isn't removing much steel and doesn't correct anything that should have already been corrected.

 

[Steve56]

Don’t swap a 12k for a different 12k. Get the Suehiro 20k and use it after the Shapton 12k.

The Shapton Pro ‘obi’, or paper belt around the box tells you what the stone is recommended for. Here’s a table compiled from the obi posted by Oz Parker.

 

[Robert6891]

I can't imagine the 12k Shapton Ceramic being inadequate, but I have never used it. I currently use 1µ lapping film or the 12k Naniwa Superstone, one or the other, before the balsa. It is the path well traveled, fine track record. But I don't think it is worth buying the Nanny 12k when you already have the Shap 12k. Now, lapping film is very cheap to get started with, so you might consider that. The benefits are no lapping needed, and as big a honing surface as you like. Very consistent results. Great setup for the balsa. Without the balsa, can be a good finisher with a few tweaks. Just film alone, no tricks and no balsa, can create an edge that some guys find "harsh". I don't feel it so, though if I try to hone on .3µ film without picopaper, I do notice that the shave is not very comfortable. Subjective.

As for the Sharpening Supplies stones, I think any inadequacy there would be fully addressable with your 12k. Then again, the 8k Naniwa is a very good stone, too. You could continue with the same lower grit stones you are using, and switch in the Naniwa 8k, let it do the cleanup work, and then the 12k just puts a nice polish on it and gets the edge as straight as a stone can get it.

If it is treetopping nicely after 12k, you are definitely in the running. Even with good treetopping, though, you should examine your edge and bevel carefully to make sure it is ready for the balsa.

It is important to have your stone lapping game optimized. Some will disagree but I find that a nice flat set of stones with no glazing on them makes a tremendous difference.

A USB microscope can be handy in some situations, and evaluating stones and the scratch patterns that they make on the bevel is one of them. Most of us hone with the heel slightly leading. What you can do is use a very consistent heel leading angle, but vary it enough at every grit change to tell easily what scratches came from the current stone and what scratches are left from the previous one. The important thing is that each stage completely obliterates all scratches left by the previous stage, replacing them with its own finer scratches. That is the essence of progressive honing. After you have done this for a while, you can easily spot scratches left over from the previous stone, but as a beginner to these techniques you might do well to use this heel angle shift technique to tell them apart. A 60x to 200x USB microscope will tell the story and give you pics to share.

One more thing. Before you leave the 12k, you might think about running 50 to 200 laps with dish soap or shave lather on the stone, and the lightest pressure you can manage, honing in hand. It should feel like the razor isn't even touching the stone. What that does is set up a buffer layer that holds the razor up a fraction of a µ I suppose, reducing scratch depth and slowing the stone down. When you really nail it with this technique, you get results like you would get from a next finer grade of stone. Another trick for optimizing your edge is to throw in a few pull strokes mixed in there with some very very light finish laps. Then finish the finish with some very short x strokes. Pretend your stone is only 3" long, and just use that much stone. Not sure why that works so well, maybe because longer strokes are needed to make fin or wire edge.

The best 12k edge you can get will give better results from the balsa than what the next best 12k edge you can get will give you. Diamond is normally a very aggressive cutter, yes, but when it is deeply buried in the grain of the balsa and you take it out to 200k grit, and use crazy light pressure, it isn't removing much steel and doesn't correct anything that should have already been corrected.

Thankyou for that. I'll try the dish soap trick later this week. It's interesting how pressure can make so much difference in the edge. A while back I came across a great study showing the effects using a 600 grit stone. Too much pressure created scratches about as deep as a 200 stone, lighter pressure left scratches about as deep as a 1000 grit stone. I'm terrible about using too much pressure, I have to constantly check myself on it so any little trick to help in that regard is great to know.

 

[Steve56]

One more thing. Before you leave the 12k, you might think about running 50 to 200 laps with dish soap or shave lather on the stone

Not according to Shapton. From their website:

Then finish the finish with some very short x strokes. Pretend your stone is only 3" long, and just use that much stone. Not sure why that works so well,

Iwasaki talks about short strokes reducing pressure, and it’s true as far as I can tell. Also try hand holding the stone to reduce pressure. If it’s a full size hone just use the middle 3-4” hand held.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Ah, well then. No soap on the Shap. They probably know best about that.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Thankyou for that. I'll try the dish soap trick later this week. It's interesting how pressure can make so much difference in the edge. A while back I came across a great study showing the effects using a 600 grit stone. Too much pressure created scratches about as deep as a 200 stone, lighter pressure left scratches about as deep as a 1000 grit stone. I'm terrible about using too much pressure, I have to constantly check myself on it so any little trick to help in that regard is great to know.

Do you hold your stone in hand, when honing? It may feel a little awkward at first, but by the time you have fully honed one or two razors, it will make sense. It is easy to misdirect pressure or use too much pressure when you have the stone resting on a bench and are manhandling the razor with two hands. When both stone and razor are out there in front of you in unsupported hands, they will find their own alignment, and pressure will be regulated quite naturally.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Better quality stones, are easier to get a good finish, but not essential. All you need is a decent 1k, 3-6k and an 8-10k finish on your 12k.

How much you spend depends on you, a King 1k is $20 a great 8k $90.



Did you reset the bevel on the 220 or 1k?

How do the bevels look now? At 12k they should be near mirror?

How did you determine the bevels are fully meeting?

What magnification are you using?

Post clear photo of both sides of the razor for better advise.

 

[JPO]

Your Shapton 12k is a relatively fast stone. If your ground work leading up the 12k is good, you should be able to finish the edge with only 10 to 15 light strokes on your 12k. If the 12k is done right, and you need a sharper edge, the time spend on a pasted balsa (or what you decide to use) should be minimal. Your razor might not be able to hold an edge that is taken too far.

If you are using hard sintered soaking stones, these can be really fast cutters, but can cut coarser and deeper then their grit rating if the surface is lapped too coarse (most relevant for your finest stones). They also have a tendency to glace, and as a result burnish more then they cut. This can also be positive, if you figure out how to use it to your advantage.
They might benefit from using a dressing stone to clean/condition the surface. The Shapton works fine with normal lapping.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Sharpening Supply is not making their own stones. If made in the US as claimed, it is probably either Norton or Pride. Pride Abrasives makes an 11-inch combo stone and Sharpening Supply stones are the same color, size, and price points in the 8-inch model combo stones.

One review said Sharpening Supply told him they were not Norton stones, he thought they were RH Preyda stones, but Preyda only makes a 1/6K combo stone and look completely different. So, more likely they are Pride Abrasives stones.

The 220 and 1k are said to be muddy and gritty, but if you use a squirt bottle to keep the stones hydrated you should be fine. I would not use their lapping stone and use a diamond plate instead.

Spend you time on the 6k removing all the 1k stria before going to the 12k and you will be fine. Do be sure to fully set the bevel on the 1k.

90% of edge issues are from a bevel that is not fully set.

 

[Robert6891]

Sharpening Supply is not making their own stones. If made in the US as claimed, it is probably either Norton or Pride. Pride Abrasives makes an 11-inch combo stone and Sharpening Supply stones are the same color, size, and price points in the 8-inch model combo stones.

One review said Sharpening Supply told him they were not Norton stones, he thought they were RH Preyda stones, but Preyda only makes a 1/6K combo stone and look completely different. So, more likely they are Pride Abrasives stones.

The 220 and 1k are said to be muddy and gritty, but if you use a squirt bottle to keep the stones hydrated you should be fine. I would not use their lapping stone and use a diamond plate instead.

Spend you time on the 6k removing all the 1k stria before going to the 12k and you will be fine. Do be sure to fully set the bevel on the 1k.

90% of edge issues are from a bevel that is not fully set.

The 220 is the "thirstiest" stone I've ever used. I don't like using and actually bought a 220 diamond plate about 6 months ago for the occasion I need something that coarse. Before the diamond I actually started using it fully submerged, it dried up so fast. The 1k needs a lot of water too but is easier to manage with a squirt bottle, as you said. By the way, I set the bevel on the 1k. I would only use a 220 if there were damage. This razor probably didn't even need to go to the 1k but... Why not start from the start?

This is a pretty busy week, going to be working on the road quite a bit, so I won't be playing with it anymore until next week sometime. I'll try to get some pictures then.