First time using diamond pastes

[Robert6891]

I made new balsa strops today and decided to try diamond pastes since I've heard so much about them on here. I bought from Tech Diamond Tools, 5g syringe of 25% diamond in .5, .25, and .1 pastes. For a 12"x3" piece of balsa I used about .5ml - .75ml of paste, worked it in evenly across the surface and wiped off the excess with a clean cotton rag.

I had to hone one of my gold dollars today so I thought that would be a good first. I used wet stones 3000, 8000, 12000 grit. Then the strops. I did 100 passes on each strop. Then a few light passes on a non pasted leather strop.

Shave wasn't really any better than when I used an iron oxide balsa strop.

I expected more and I'm not sure what I need to change to get more from this. I wonder if my stropping technique itself needs adjustment, maybe I need a lighter touch with the diamonds? Or if I didn't use enough or maybe too much paste? More passes?

I can't imagine I am an unwitting master of razor stropping and was so good at it with chromium and iron oxides that the diamond pastes could offer no further improvement to the quality of my edge. But for grins and giggles lets just keep that on the table of possibilities, lol.

 

[rbscebu]

Have you read Annex II of the SR shaving instructions?

Traditional SR Shaving Instructions for Beginners - Rev. F

Attached is a copy of the latest revision of Traditional SR Shaving Instructions For Beginners (Rev. F). It now includes all sections; Shaving Instructions, Pasted Balsa Strops and Lapping Films Honing From Bevel Set to Shave-Ready. It's a big file but a wealth of knowledge.

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

What is your stropping experience?

Why did you drop down in honing grit to 3k, was there any edge damage?

Did you remove all the stria from each grit with the following grit?

How did you determine that the bevel was fully set?

It is likely not the paste or stropping, probably the razor was not fully honed and the bevels meeting.

Post a photo of the razor both sides for better advise.

 

[Robert6891]

Have you read Annex II of the SR shaving instructions?

Traditional SR Shaving Instructions for Beginners - Rev. F

Attached is a copy of the latest revision of Traditional SR Shaving Instructions For Beginners (Rev. F). It now includes all sections; Shaving Instructions, Pasted Balsa Strops and Lapping Films Honing From Bevel Set to Shave-Ready. It's a big file but a wealth of knowledge.

www.badgerandblade.com

I have now. The only thing that really stood out was the alternating of standard passes with pull strokes. I'm going to try for lighter pressure next time too.

 

[Robert6891]

What is your stropping experience?

Why did you drop down in honing grit to 3k, was there any edge damage?

Did you remove all the stria from each grit with the following grit?

How did you determine that the bevel was fully set?

It is likely not the paste or stropping, probably the razor was not fully honed and the bevels meeting.

Post a photo of the razor both sides for better advise.

I have years of stropping experience, however, I've been using chromium and iron oxide treated strops and I have refined my technique using those mediums.

 

[Eben Stone]

I have now. The only thing that really stood out was the alternating of standard passes with pull strokes. I'm going to try for lighter pressure next time too.

Are you using the hanging position? I'm at SR shave #99, and I've just recently developed enough skill to use the hanging position without the strop swinging at all. It obviously move a little, but not enough for me to see it happen visually.

 

[rbscebu]

@Robert6891, there are a few things that can deteriorate or not improve an edge in diamond pasted balsa stropping.

• Having too much paste on the strop. You need to wipe the paste off the strop with a clean cloth until no more appears on the cloth.
• You are not holding the substrate in-hand.
• You are applying too much pressure as you strop. Diamond paste is very aggressive and too much pressure can quickly tear up an edge.
• The paste on your strop has been contaminated due to not properly cleaning the blade between use on different strops.
• The balsa surface is not flat.
• You didn't start with a truely shave-ready edge.

I'm sure that you know all this already as you have now read the instructions.

Go back and refinish the edge on your whetstones. Do not strop on a pasted leather or cloth strop. Then shave with the SR off the whetstones so that you can guarantee that it is truely shave-ready. Then give it a full proper diamond pasted balsa strop progression following the instructions and shave with it again.

Report back on your findings.

 

[rbscebu]

I just reread the original post. @Robert6891 states that he applied 0.5ml to 0.75ml of paste to each strop. That's about ⅒ or more of a 5g tube!

I hope that is a typo in the OP. He should have applied only about 2 or 3 rice grain sizes of paste to each strop. That would be about 0.05ml to 0.075ml.

 

[Tomo]

I just reread the original post. @Robert6891 states that he applied 0.5ml to 0.75ml of paste to each strop. That's about ⅒ or more of a 5g tube!

I hope that is a typo in the OP. He should have applied only about 2 or 3 rice grain sizes of paste to each strop. That would be about 0.05ml to 0.075ml.

That’s what stood out at me. Way too much paste.

 

[Robert6891]

I just reread the original post. @Robert6891 states that he applied 0.5ml to 0.75ml of paste to each strop. That's about ⅒ or more of a 5g tube!

I hope that is a typo in the OP. He should have applied only about 2 or 3 rice grain sizes of paste to each strop. That would be about 0.05ml to 0.075ml.

You read correct. I started with less but wasn't getting it to spread well so I took a different approach. Apply more to get it covered, then wipe wipe wipe till my rag (clean cotton t-shirt like cloths) don't remove any more paste. As I'm no longer able to remove visible residue from the strop I assumed it to have a proper amount now. Is this correct?

The edge was shave ready off the 12000 stone. Hht and tree topping were satisfactory for right off the stone. And care was taken to not get the grits mixed together. So I'm leaning towards too much pressure and maybe too much paste on the strop.

Curious about the holding the strops in hand part. I did just that but what difference does would it make holding in hand vs setting the strop on the bench (how I typically do it)

 

[Gamma]

Typically, with a well honed edge, about 10-12 passes on .25 diamond on a 6-8" x 3" leather paddle strop will increase felt sharpness significantly. The amount of product needed is minimal. I prefer sprays, and I am talking about 5-6 spritzes, maybe.
Note - I did not say the edge will be better.
Whether or not the edge is actually better for someone, or not, depends on a lot of personal reasoning.

Following up with .1 is more of a preferential thing, I have found it can smooth things out a bit perhaps - but again, the required amount on the strop and lap counts are low.
I have put blades on diamond charged leather for extended sessions and have found shave quality diminishes over the long haul.
I prefer to use abrasive compounds on blades honed to - under 12k, a perfect 5k edge is ideal for me.

Personally, I am not a fan of diamond abrasives for finishing. There are better compounds out there, really. It is fast though. But I'd rather finish with a high quality FeOx paste any day. Chromox is better suited to a set up for that edge, for me anyway.

I think I can make things ultimately sharper with diamond, but the law of diminishing returns looms heavily here. Once a blade cuts effortlessly, and flush, it can not cut with less effort or 'more flush' via enhanced sharpness. There is a finite amount of objective 'need' here that, once passed, becomes pointless and possibly problematic. Abrasives can deteriorate an edge fast, to the point where they need daily upkeep past normal stropping, which is something I strive to avoid.

It's easy to kill or compromise an edge on a paddle charged with compounds, rounding the apex is quite easy to do, esp when there is too much compound on the substrate. Less is more here. Big time.

 

[Robert6891]

Typically, with a well honed edge, about 10-12 passes on .25 diamond on a 6-8" x 3" leather paddle strop will increase felt sharpness significantly. The amount of product needed is minimal. I prefer sprays, and I am talking about 5-6 spritzes, maybe.
Note - I did not say the edge will be better.
Whether or not the edge is actually better for someone, or not, depends on a lot of personal reasoning.

Following up with .1 is more of a preferential thing, I have found it can smooth things out a bit perhaps - but again, the required amount on the strop and lap counts are low.
I have put blades on diamond charged leather for extended sessions and have found shave quality diminishes over the long haul.
I prefer to use abrasive compounds on blades honed to - under 12k, a perfect 5k edge is ideal for me.

Personally, I am not a fan of diamond abrasives for finishing. There are better compounds out there, really. It is fast though. But I'd rather finish with a high quality FeOx paste any day. Chromox is better suited to a set up for that edge, for me anyway.

I think I can make things ultimately sharper with diamond, but the law of diminishing returns looms heavily here. Once a blade cuts effortlessly, and flush, it can not cut with less effort or 'more flush' via enhanced sharpness. There is a finite amount of objective 'need' here that, once passed, becomes pointless and possibly problematic. Abrasives can deteriorate an edge fast, to the point where they need daily upkeep past normal stropping, which is something I strive to avoid.

It's easy to kill or compromise an edge on a paddle charged with compounds, rounding the apex is quite easy to do, esp when there is too much compound on the substrate. Less is more here. Big time.

Jury is definitely still out on for me on diamonds. I've been using chromium and iron oxides on leather and balsa bench strops for about 18 years and have been pleased. Trying diamonds because of all the talk here and elsewhere about even further enhancement of the edge.

I did just try again, taking the razor back to the 12,000 stone, then the serries of strops. This time a very very light touch on the strop. I noticed some difference in performance this time around. Diamonds do seem less forgiving though.

You're one of the very few people I've seen that talks about using diamonds on leather strops. I used chromium oxide on leather, suede side. This strop was more intended for use with my woodworking tools but I have liked the results with my razors. I finish them on pasted balsa strops but have wondered about going to leather to see what effect that may have. The same grit abrasive will leave a different finish depending on the substrate it's on. I'd be curious to know if you've tried other materials and what your thoughts were. If leather proves an equal or better material then I might make some new bench strops with it, especially since it seems I can now get the leather for less than the balsa...

 

[JPO]

Jury is definitely still out on for me on diamonds. I've been using chromium and iron oxides on leather and balsa bench strops for about 18 years and have been pleased. Trying diamonds because of all the talk here and elsewhere about even further enhancement of the edge.

I did just try again, taking the razor back to the 12,000 stone, then the serries of strops. This time a very very light touch on the strop. I noticed some difference in performance this time around. Diamonds do seem less forgiving though.

You're one of the very few people I've seen that talks about using diamonds on leather strops. I used chromium oxide on leather, suede side. This strop was more intended for use with my woodworking tools but I have liked the results with my razors. I finish them on pasted balsa strops but have wondered about going to leather to see what effect that may have. The same grit abrasive will leave a different finish depending on the substrate it's on. I'd be curious to know if you've tried other materials and what your thoughts were. If leather proves an equal or better material then I might make some new bench strops with it, especially since it seems I can now get the leather for less than the balsa...

I have had good results with stupid hard O1 tool steel on leather loaded with CBN. I sanded the leather to give it a slight napp. I am not sure if sanding it made a difference. There should not be a big, if any noticable difference between diamonds and CBN.
This is a type of edge I am not that comfortable with. I did like the edges off TI white paste better TBH.

 

[lightfoot]

I suspect it’s all about matching the paste of choice to a substrate that offers the smooth-factor one seeks. I’ve tried balsa, leather, linen, nylon, and a few different grades of felt. My favorite so far is wool felt. But which grade?
F5 is my least favorite due to fraying but it’s not horrific though.
F1 is definitely worth considering because there’s a bit of give without the fraying but it’s right on the edge of doing that.
26lb. sheet felt is the best hands-down and is most likely what was used on the SRD modular paddle strop.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

I have tested numerous substrates on Diamond, CBN, Chrome, Ferrous and Cerium Oxides. You are right substrate makes a difference.

I never saw the attraction to Balsa, it has its own grit built in that is often lower than most paste.

For me Pellon a paper/fabric, (similar to Tyvek but not as slick) available from any fabric store, about $5 a yard about 45 in wide is best for Diamond and CBN for razors.

Sailcloth, polyester canvas is best for Chrome and Ferrous Oxide, can be cut no fraying, it and Pellon can be fused with Iron on fusing, easily. Sailcloth is about $10 a yard. Making a strop with these is dirt simple fold over a 2-inch D-ring and fuse with iron on tape. The tape is stronger than the fabric.

I only use diamonds for tools and working knives, (cutting tools), on leather paddles, leather glued to cut up bamboo cutting boards. Cracked boards are cheap at home goods outlet $2-5.

I occasionally use a .50um CBN Pellon strop to extend an edge, but soon after it hits the stone.

I often use a sailcloth hanging strop with Chrome Oxide to strop edges between stones.

If you want to test paste, cardboard inside of a cereal box is hard to beat, just laid on the edge of a bench.

I even have glued cardboard on to bamboo to strop kitchen and EDC knives with excellent results, if the surface gets marred, peel it off and glue on a fresh strip, thinned white glue is easy to peel and scrape off with a card scraper.

 

[Robert6891]

I suspect it’s all about matching the paste of choice to a substrate that offers the smooth-factor one seeks. I’ve tried balsa, leather, linen, nylon, and a few different grades of felt. My favorite so far is wool felt. But which grade?
F5 is my least favorite due to fraying but it’s not horrific though.
F1 is definitely worth considering because there’s a bit of give without the fraying but it’s right on the edge of doing that.
26lb. sheet felt is the best hands-down and is most likely what was used on the SRD modular paddle strop.

This is interesting, I never considered wool felt for a strop substrate, something I'll have to play with.

 

[Gamma]

I'd be curious to know if you've tried other materials and what your thoughts were.

I've tried lots of different surface/substrate materials. Too many to count. My thoughts on them, and the myriad combos, could fill pages. literally. There were probably maybe 15-16 different types of felt alone. There is isn't enough space here for me to get into it, not enough time in the day either.

My preferred substrate for abrasive compounds is hanging cotton webbing. I do have a bunch of paddles with maybe 7-8 different surfaces going at this moment though. Some are leather but even on paddles I will usually opt for a fabric substrate. The TI 3" wide paddle used to come with a black side that was a hide with a heavy nap - sorta like nubuck. That was interesting stuff but you can't reverse the application of an abrasive to leather and changing it out is cost prohibitive.

So most of the time, for me, it's a hanging linen. I have a couple razors dedicated to paste use, mostly for the sake of myth busting. Lotta people like to make stuff up and call it fact, it's sort of a peeve of mine.

Personally, I would say that iron oxides make for a better finishing compound when quality product is sourced and it is used correctly; meaning; better than diamond and better for me. There are a bevy of variables surrounding that though. But, overall, yeah, FeOx wins that race in my book.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Too much paste will give you meh results. If you wipe it down good, really good, it is salvageable. Be careful to not cross-contaminate. Wash your hands between grits. Lapping your balsa makes a big difference, too, as well as having a good backing on it. The balsa will swell unevenly, and warp, if it is too thick or if it is unsupported.

I have tried CrOx and FeOx on balsa, using the same techniques that I use with diamond paste. Results can be good. IME, not quite up there with diamond, though.

When you apply the paste, you don't have to have 100% coverage. If it looks like you have enough, you have way too much. Less is more. I always hold the balsa in hand, vertically, and use only very faint contact, no real pressure. Of course there is pretty much zero feedback so all you can do is count laps and try the edge. I go around 100 each grit, mixing in some pull strokes, and finishing each grit with very very short x strokes.

I have a feeling you will hit the balsa again, and get better results. If the results do not amaze you, you aren't there yet.

Often when trying out a "new" way to develop an edge, we let our prior knowledge, experience, and familiarity with making razors sharp, get in the way. I see noobs getting much better results, and faster, than old pro honemeisters trying the balsa just to humor the Method guys. Usually, anyway.

(1) How To Use a Pasted Balsa Strop | Badger & Blade

It is important to read all the way through. The process has gone through considerable collaboration and development.

 

[Steve56]

Good stuff Slash, but I’d wear out an inch-thick Ark before I’d read all that.

How about making a new post that incorporates all that past experience? Time for Rev 1.

 

[Slash McCoy]

Good stuff Slash, but I’d wear out an inch-thick Ark before I’d read all that.

How about making a new post that incorporates all that past experience? Time for Rev 1.

You are probably right, Steve. I think @rbscebu already sorta did that, though. But yeah, I will do that one of these days. There is another forum that might benefit from a concise treatment of The Method, as well, I think.