Coticule frustration and questions

[Chaloney]

Ok, I think I've figured out the problem with the la grise. When I honed the first two razors, my goal was to take them from bevel set to mostly done and then finish on the apache I had just purchased. Before this I had all but given up on the la grise and was planning to sell it whenever I got around to listing some stuff on the bst. I went through the dilutions wanting to make progress but not thinking about shaving off the blade. I happened to hit very close to the sweet spot. What I've learned since then is that it is very easy to do too much on slurry on this stone. Today I honed a JH Cutlery razor

that I've had sitting around for a while on the la grise, intentionally going through each dilution fairly quickly--20 half laps per side then only 10-20 x-stroke laps and I'd move on to the next dilution if there was any hint of losing undercut. In later stages this was happening at 5-7 laps. Did 20 half strokes on water then 30 x strokes under running water with progressively less pressure. Hht3-4 after stropping. Then I did the apache but I'll get back to that later.

i was going to hone the other razor, greyhound cutlery

On the vintage coticule then finish on apache to compare--I think the la grise/apache edges are a bit smoother than the vintage coti/apache edges, so I was going to try to do one of each to compare. I was so happy to get a good result with the la grise, however, I did both with the la grise. I did have to step back with this one as I lost undercut on part of the blade. After a bit more work I did the same water only work and hht 3-4 after stropping again.

Took each blade to the apache for finishing and both times lost hht after a few (10-20 strokes). Had to go back to coticule with water only on both razors then 5-7 laps on apache with great results. This happened with the first couple razors I did la grise to apache. So I'm left with a few possibilities. 1. The la grise creates a very smooth edge that sharpens up very quickly with apache but can go too far easily and either need more apache work (which I've done, getting a good edge) or going back to the la grise then refinishing on apache without doing quite as much work. 2. The alternation between coticule and apache a couple times somehow creates a very sharp, very smooth edge. I've only done this with la grise edges. I don't know how the vintage coticule edges would respond to going apache then back to coticule then apache again--would this be the same-a little less smooth- or would the edge get smoother. Also, I still have to shave with today's edges to see if they are as smooth as the first couple.

In the end, I'm very happy. I seem to have figured out the la grise. I have not maxed it out yet, I'm sure, but I'm a lot further along than I have been for the last year and a half! Thanks everyone for your help!

 

[Chaloney]

I hate computers. I had this nice long wittily entertaining post all typed up and my phone gets kicked off the WiFi at work so when I try to submit it it doesn't go through but my phone doesn't keep it either. Argh.

Anyway, I've been enjoying some nice shaves recently but I've decided its about time to try to really max out my coti. Taking after Rockviper, I will try to hone on it almost every day for a while. I started a couple days ago and had some success yesterday. Bevel set on DMT. Quick dilucot - 20 half laps then 5-10 laps at each stage. If I did more I eventually started to lose slurry undercut. Started from a fresh slurry a couple times. As the slurry got lighter so did my pressure and I gradually decreased the strokes to about 10 half laps then 5 x-laps. Stopped with a light slurry. Palm stropped and had a few hht3s. 20 laps on water then running water for 30 laps. Hht 3-4 after palm stropping so I did another 30 under running water. Stropped 100/100 and had hht 5s and 5s. Nice shave this morning. Not as keen as the apache edges but gave a very close shave. Next time I'll start from a fresh bevel but keep going on running water to see if it gets any sharper.

 

[gary haywood]

Great stuff sounds like your learning exactly how the la grise works.

gary

 

[Chaloney]

I think so. Its much faster on slurry than I ever would have thought with what I've read. I really have no other cotis to compare to, though.

 

[Brianskeet]

La Grise hones got a bit of a bad name for a while. I think undeservingly so! I do find that they vary more than other veins, but I have several La Grise hones and they will all produce good shaving edges. Very much a it is the indian and not the arrow thing IMO.

 

[Chaloney]

Just when I think I'm getting it figured out....had a frustrating honing day earlier this week. Tried 2 different razors, both easy to hone--a bengall and an american hardware store razor (hackett, gates, and hurty-the other one if found reference to online seems likely to have been made by broker but was made much earlier as the store had a different name, possibly decades earlier). Multiple tries bevel setting on DMT then dilucot on the la grise, and I just couldn't get them beyond hht1 with a rare 3. I know I wasn't close to done, stropping made no noticeable improvement. Eventually (but not as soon as I should have) I gave it up as a bad day for honing.

In the meantime I read a couple posts on a recently resurrected thread that were very helpful. MikeH's "honing has plateaued" thread. This one in particular helped a lot:

If you want to improve your honing you got to put those pasted strops away for awhile. There is nothing inherently wrong with them, but once you can manage to push the keenness of your edges past a certain level, right off the hones, you will stand surprised at how you will no longer need the CrO and at the same time that those very fine pastes really need a good basis to deploy their special characteristics.

My advice for you is to hone a razor up to your normal level, which is HHT-1 (the violin). Once there, boosting keenness is a matter of patience. You'll get there one time, and after that, you know it's doable so you'll keep trying till the edge checks out. HHT-3, straight of the Coticule is your goal. Use a clean thick hair and try to pop it at half and inch of the point where you're holding it. Make sure to hold the hair by the tip end. (Try it both ends if you're not sure).
It it definitely possible on you Les Latneuses. So, once you've reached your HHT-1 with the method you described, I would go back to the Les Latneuses. Use only water, and start with sets of halfstrokes or circles (whatever), till you see some discoloration in the water. Rinse the stone and repeat. Use the kind of pressure you would put on a pencil eraser. After you've done some work in this fashion, rinse your Coticule and razor well and finish with 50 X-strokes with half of that pressure rinse and finally 50 without any significant pressure. Dry the edge well and check with the HHT. It it doesn't check out, repeat the whole procedure. You're not harming anything. During the finishing stage of X-strokes, try to add some "swiftness" to the strokes that often helps.
I often need to revisit my finishing 3 or 4 times, before the HHT checks out, but it doesn't take long and I've learned that it's always worth the effort.
If the edge passes HHT-3 off the stone, stropping on clean linen and leather will improve it even further. I really recommend to test shave before doing any pasted stropping. You might be surprised.

Good luck,
Bart.

I tried the bengall on my vintage coti today following these tips. Got to hht1 after dilucot (20 half laps on each side then dilute, repeat until almost colorless slurry). then I followed with the water only half strokes then x-laps. Hht violining mostly but popped or split a few times. Another water only set and it was better--getting close. A third water only set and hht-3 to4 across the blade after just 5 palm-strop laps. Stropped 100/100 on linen and leather and had easy hht 4s and 5s everywhere. I didn't ever really see any color change in the water during these sets, but it obviously did something. I'll try the hackett as soon as I have a chance.

 

[svcaramia]

I agree with buca3152. Four of us (friends) bought LV coticules at the same time. All are almost identical. I am in no way a honemister (Bill is) but I get a superior edge every time with it. Like my coti so much I ordered a large one. Big mistake. Not the same at all.
So, my take on Coti's is that its the stone more than the technique

 

[Brianskeet]

With exceedingly rare exception all coticules will get you there once you learn the individual stone. Some easier and some harder, but if you put in the time to learn the rock as an individual it will get you there.

 

[Sharpchef]

With exceedingly rare exception all coticules will get you there once you learn the individual stone. Some easier and some harder, but if you put in the time to learn the rock as an individual it will get you there.

Absolutely right! I got only one out of about 150 cotis that was too rough, or i was too stupid for this one......


Greets Sebastian.

 

[SliceOfLife]

I've had one coti that couldn't "get me there". I sold it as such. The buyer then sold it when he couldn't make it work. It may have changed hands more times, but it's in another members hands here (ekretz maybe? I forget, we talked about it in the coticule thread) and he has gotten shaving edges out of it; so there you go. For me, it was a better beveler than finishing stone. It really cut as fast or faster than the 1k King I compared it to at the time. Was a beautiful 11x2 (or so) natural combo with a ton of coti on it. Wish I'd kept it, but what can you do. I was frustrated and didn't want to waste any more time with it.

I've since had probably close to 50 other coti's. The hardest ones I've found are a single vintage that has a lot of texture to the surface and my Ardennes #10 that some people told me they think is a la grise, but I personally think is a LNV. Both took a bit more practice than others, but definitely work, and the LNV leaves one of the best coti edges I've gotten once you figure it out and take the care it requires.

That's the main reason I regret getting rid of that big stone. Now I've always got to caveat my opinion that coti's in general can work, though with different difficulties, with the one exception in my past.

 

[Brianskeet]

I have one in my experience that I just could not get a good shaving edge off of as well. I still have it and would definitely tell a prospective buyer of my difficulties if I ever sold it. It is the softest coti I have ever touched and autoslurries like crazy! I think if I ever take up honing under water it could produce a good edge, but short of that I am not sure it is capable.

 

[Chaloney]

I've been working on the Hackett on the vintage coticule for the last few days. Seems like every time I'd get close I'd mess something up--that awful crunchy scrape from a bad stroke-- and I'd have to start over from the bevel again. Finally got to where I was working on just water and it seemed like it was taking forever. Hundreds of laps for very little progress. I took out my apache, determined to get a shave ready edge on the razor one way or another. I did just a few laps and had some resistance so I stopped, palm stropped, and had lost most of the hht progress I had made--barely hht1. Went back to the coticule and after just one set of 50 half laps on water only each side I had recovered the lost hht and improved it a bit. Still not good enough to shave. Went to apache and went through the friction of the first few laps then just started to feel resistance after 25 or 30 laps. Hht1. Back to coticule again and after a set on water only like above, I had hht 3-4 after palm stropping. 100/100 linen and leather and hht was 4-5. I shaved with the bengall from Saturday but did a few strokes of each pass with the Hackett and it was great. Not sure what the apache does to the edge but it seems to allow the coticule on water only to speed up a lot. I'll keep experimenting both with figuring out the cotis and with the combination of coticule and apache. I have to scope the edge to see what's happening next time too.

 

[Gamma]

With exceedingly rare exception all coticules will get you there once you learn the individual stone. Some easier and some harder, but if you put in the time to learn the rock as an individual it will get you there.

^This.

 

[Chaloney]

I've identified one thing that seems to have helped. I noticed that often my results wouldn't improve until I went back to a thick slurry and did a dilucot a second time, often after lots of various attempts at finishing. I decided to try doing a lot more work before starting to dilute- about triple what I had been doing, which was already double what I do on each stage while diluting. This seems to have made a big difference, although I've only done it once so far. Much less work on water only and I was getting hht3-4 here and there along the whole blade after a few palm strop laps, 4's everywhere after 100 each linen and leather. Nice shave this morning. Probably best or second best coti edge I've ever gotten. Just a little less keen than the apache/coti edges I've been getting. I hope this will work again

 

[Brianskeet]

Outstanding news! Now the trick of course is producing the same results repeatably. It get easier every time, but I can still have a bad day where I just can't seem to get there. When that happens I set it down and come back later. Works like a charm.