CFM strikes again, or finally some respect for the GEM 1912?

[MacDaddy]

Alex, this thread is about this particular auction, so how 'bout we keep it there. The broad moaning about what you believe to be CFM's shady practices is really just old and tired. You've already gone from "thinking" that CFM's got a "resto man on retainer" to stating it as outright fact just in this thread alone. You say that there has to be something fishy because he's frequently selling what appears to be NOS or mint condition items. Another possible reason is that he's built up a reputation for getting a high price on his auctions and people with high-grade items would rather consign their items through him than take their chances on their own. I'm not saying either is definitively right because, frankly, I don't care.

I'm sure we've all seen some questionable things CFM's auctions, but we're not talking about all his auctions here. Unless you're saying that this set looks like it's had some reconstruction done on it or otherwise doesn't look proper and can point to why you think that then you're off-topic here. If you want to have a general discussion about what you view as CFM's shadiness, start a separate thread elsewhere, at the very least so I can ignore it.

 

[alex2363]

Alex, this thread is about this particular auction, so how 'bout we keep it there. The broad moaning about what you believe to be CFM's shady practices is really just old and tired. You've already gone from "thinking" that CFM's got a "resto man on retainer" to stating it as outright fact just in this thread alone. You say that there has to be something fishy because he's frequently selling what appears to be NOS or mint condition items. Another possible reason is that he's built up a reputation for getting a high price on his auctions and people with high-grade items would rather consign their items through him than take their chances on their own. I'm not saying either is definitively right because, frankly, I don't care.

I'm sure we've all seen some questionable things CFM's auctions, but we're not talking about all his auctions here. Unless you're saying that this set looks like it's had some reconstruction done on it or otherwise doesn't look proper and can point to why you think that then you're off-topic here. If you want to have a general discussion about what you view as CFM's shadiness, start a separate thread elsewhere, at the very least so I can ignore it.

If you feel like my opinions are old and tired then just don't read them and stop responding to them. I am not the one that is a banned member here. I am also not the only one that feels that Cedarman is not upfront. There are many Mods here that feel the same. I am at liberties to post opinions so our members can ascertain from the post and atleast be aware of the particular seller. Also, my post had something to do with this particular thread and it lead to a more insightful continuation that you feel is tired, moanful and old. Im am not here to post energetic or exiting new post and ignore some the fact that this seller is not upfront even though he sells original shaving items. I am not the only one who agrees, but I am the only one who will tell you up front.

 

[Gruder]

Gentlemen, further argumentation will result in the closure of this thread.

 

[alex2363]

Gentlemen, further argumentation will result in the closure of this thread.

Chad I will respect your position on this matter.

 

[Dr Roadrash]

His auctions have clear pictures, detailed descriptions, and nice razors. He has excellent feedback and that is a recipe for a high yield on the bay. He does not set the prices or set high reserves as far as I can tell. People are simply willingly paying a huge premium for his razors. I'm sure most of us think its dumb to pay that much, but there is a lot more knowledge on this forum and you might know how to find a diamond in the rough. The average person looking for a vintage razor wants it now and doesn't want to get burned or spend an hour cleaning it.

Aaron

 

[craig87c]

Exactly what type of 1912 is that? I have the same one, and think it's a Minuteman but I'm unsure.

 

[MacDaddy]

Exactly what type of 1912 is that? I have the same one, and think it's a Minuteman but I'm unsure.

Yes, it looks like the same type of fluted handle that I've seen in the Minuteman sets, but this set would have probably had its own name. Waits may have it listed.

 

[alex2363]

Exactly what type of 1912 is that? I have the same one, and think it's a Minuteman but I'm unsure.

You are partly right, It's a 1924 GEM Triumph . The blades in it are wrong, it has reversible 1948 Gem blades in it, but they suppose to have 1924 Gem blades in it.

 

[alex2363]

I've never seen one like that at all. 100 year anniversary set?

There is no anniversary set, this was just made up. It is a triumph 1924 Gem with the wrong blades in it. It is suppose to have 1925/Gem blades not !948 Reversible Gem blades in it.

 

[rajagra]

There is no anniversary set, this was just made up.

It has "100th year (Avery) 1825-1925" engraved on the case.

 

[RocketMan]

If I could unload endless items on eBay for way more money than they are worth, then I would love to get to it. That furniture dood is a slick salesman - and ebay is the place to sell. Folks are welcome to buy what they want. And, I got to admit I get a little jealous watching him get 50 bucks and more for a simple superspeed. Almost a darn genie!!

However, I don't care for him reloading the market with replated razors - (I recall he told folks over at TSD to essentially p*ss off when he was asked about developing a stamp mark for them so replates and originals could be sorted for exchanges and sales of his items between people in the future. ) it will be a b*tch to sort out the classic from the crap. But, what ya gonna do? He is running a business and he is a good at it. There are no regulations for sleight of hand in this way so...... suck it up buttercup. (no disrespect intended!!)

And, to show I can be relevant , that is a lovely Gem set. No where worth the price in the 'real' market, but in the world of CFM, everyday stuff.

Finally respect for Gem? Perhaps. CFM strikes again? Absolutely!!

And.....WooOOOohHHoooooo....... I didn't even notice I reached 1000 posts!!! Gotta get a life!

 

[alex2363]

It has "100th year (Avery) 1825-1925" engraved on the case.

Yeah, it is on the old Gem Design logo and it was for someone named Avery.

If I could unload endless items on eBay for way more money than they are worth, then I would love to get to it. That furniture dood is a slick salesman - and ebay is the place to sell. Folks are welcome to buy what they want. And, I got to admit I get a little jealous watching him get 50 bucks and more for a simple superspeed. Almost a darn genie!!

However, I don't care for him reloading the market with replated razors - (I recall he told folks over at TSD to essentially p*ss off when he was asked about developing a stamp mark for them so replates and originals could be sorted for exchanges and sales of his items between people in the future. ) it will be a b*tch to sort out the classic from the crap. But, what ya gonna do? He is running a business and he is a good at it. There are no regulations for sleight of hand in this way so...... suck it up buttercup. (no disrespect intended!!)

And, to show I can be relevant , that is a lovely Gem set. No where worth the price in the 'real' market, but in the world of CFM, everyday stuff.

Finally respect for Gem? Perhaps. CFM strikes again? Absolutely!!

And.....WooOOOohHHoooooo....... I didn't even notice I reached 1000 posts!!! Gotta get a life!

i agree with you, I had past expereinces that I cant go into detail because he cant defend himself on B&B since he is banned from here. Also. congrats on your !,000 post. And you do have a life, it is here on the B&B party!

 

[alex2363]

Nice 1912, but wow. It would be interesting to know what the emblem was for and who/what 100 year anniversary was being celebrated.

The emblem is the old GEM emblem....(could have been engraved to up the value?)

 

[rxonmymind]

"but if I see a pattern of unusual items being sold as NOS or almost new that are 100 years old on a everyday basis then something has to be fishy"
My gut feelings have rarely been wrong. But nobody is able to continuosly bat a thousand and CFM does. Think logically. Either he has these sent to him per commision(that's what I'm thinking) or he replates/restores them. NO ONE has that many razors in that condition in a given territory on an everyday basis. It's an opinion. An educated guess. Throw in chance finds, flea market scores, antiques stores and estate sales and I have come across very few razors. I have over a hundred miles area to drive everyday & know every antique dealer and (go the the fairs that are held within that area at three in the morning) & not one of them this month has gotten a old razor.
But whatever. The fact it only takes twenty seconds to replate at $20 does not in any way take away from his WORK. Thats the going rate for whatever he does and people are willing to pay for it.

 

[MacDaddy]

The emblem is the old GEM emblem....(could have been engraved to up the value?)

It's not the GEM cross. It was the logo of the B.F. Avery & Sons Company, a tractor manufacturer, which was founded in 1825.

 

[Mojo88]

The topic of CFM replating or not has been around since he starting selling. I can't say he does or doesn't, I don't have a degree in metallurgy and can't determine what he does.

I do know one definitive fact, some of his razors are listed as NOS and by antique guides and B+B information those razors do not meet NOS guideline The seller in question is educated enough in razors to describe them correctly and it is his responsibility to list them as such.

When you list a razor as NOS it should meet this definition : New Old Stock (NOS): Razor in original new condition and includes the outer cardboard shipper (if applicable to the model), metal/plastic/Bakelite case, blade pack and instruction sheet. New Old Stock (NOS) status does not necessarily coincide with any specific category.

We are not talking a few dollars here but a significant dollar amount that over time has added up to quite a sum of money. It is not a case of jealousy, but buying something as advertised.

To me this is a case of mis-listing an item and gaining from buyers that are not versed in purchasing items.

If you want to buy a razor from them by all means do so, but I know one thing for certain. You can find the same razor in a thrift store, antique store, E-Bay or the BST and with Scrubbing Bubbles,a tube of Mass and a little cleaning time you can get the same razor for a fraction of the price.

This is not a bias against CFM, it's up the the individual on how you spend your money and if you don't want to do the cleaning yourself then this is an option. I prefer to find things and do my own restoration.

 

[GreekGuy]

You can find the same razor in a thrift store, antique store, E-Bay or the BST and with Scrubbing Bubbles,a tube of Mass and a little cleaning time you can get the same razor for a fraction of the price.

Some points I think you should consider in this context of ebay auctions are:

Not everyone lives near thrift stores or antique stores.
Not everyone has the time to go thrift shopping. Some people's time is worth more than their money
Not everyone wants to spend a ton of time cleaning something up. To me, thats part of the fun. But not everyone feels that way.

While there are many deals to be had out there, there are few sets in this good of condition. I wouldn't have paid 1/5 of that, but thats me.

 

[mmbcastle]

I do know one definitive fact, some of his razors are listed as NOS and by antique guides and B+B information those razors do not meet NOS guideline The seller in question is educated enough in razors to describe them correctly and it is his responsibility to list them as such.

When you list a razor as NOS it should meet this definition : New Old Stock (NOS): Razor in original new condition and includes the outer cardboard shipper (if applicable to the model), metal/plastic/Bakelite case, blade pack and instruction sheet. New Old Stock (NOS) status does not necessarily coincide with any specific category.

If you'll look closely, he rarely (if ever) lists as actually NOS. He's stating the BLADES are NOS. Tricky little diversion that by itself makes me distrust and disrespect him. However, he does have that marketing mojo. Between his feedback score, great photos, etc, he does command high prices.

This "100th anniversary" bit is another example. I haven't read it closely enough, but I'm sure in there somewhere he does fess up that it's not GEM's anniversary, but that's sure what he's implying.

 

[mmbcastle]

This "100th anniversary" bit is another example. I haven't read it closely enough, but I'm sure in there somewhere he does fess up that it's not GEM's anniversary, but that's sure what he's implying.

Yep. Way down the page, smallest type on the page "It is uncertain whether this set was manufactured for a Customer's 100 Year Anniversary or the Anniversary of the GEM razor~Sorry, our knowledge on this is limited."

 

[alex2363]

"but if I see a pattern of unusual items being sold as NOS or almost new that are 100 years old on a everyday basis then something has to be fishy"
My gut feelings have rarely been wrong. But nobody is able to continuosly bat a thousand and CFM does. Think logically. Either he has these sent to him per commision(that's what I'm thinking) or he replates/restores them. NO ONE has that many razors in that condition in a given territory on an everyday basis. It's an opinion. An educated guess. Throw in chance finds, flea market scores, antiques stores and estate sales and I have come across very few razors. I have over a hundred miles area to drive everyday & know every antique dealer and (go the the fairs that are held within that area at three in the morning) & not one of them this month has gotten a old razor.
But whatever. The fact it only takes twenty seconds to replate at $20 does not in any way take away from his WORK. Thats the going rate for whatever he does and people are willing to pay for it.

I see your point of view and agree, it is a freakish thing to keep pumping out NOS/almost NOS or pristine razors at a high volume on a daily/consistent basis.

It's not the GEM cross. It was the logo of the B.F. Avery & Sons Company, a tractor manufacturer, which was founded in 1825.

Oh, I it looks almost identical to the original GEM logo.

The topic of CFM replating or not has been around since he starting selling. I can't say he does or doesn't, I don't have a degree in metallurgy and can't determine what he does.

I do know one definitive fact, some of his razors are listed as NOS and by antique guides and B+B information those razors do not meet NOS guideline The seller in question is educated enough in razors to describe them correctly and it is his responsibility to list them as such.

When you list a razor as NOS it should meet this definition : New Old Stock (NOS): Razor in original new condition and includes the outer cardboard shipper (if applicable to the model), metal/plastic/Bakelite case, blade pack and instruction sheet. New Old Stock (NOS) status does not necessarily coincide with any specific category.

We are not talking a few dollars here but a significant dollar amount that over time has added up to quite a sum of money. It is not a case of jealousy, but buying something as advertised.

To me this is a case of mis-listing an item and gaining from buyers that are not versed in purchasing items.

If you want to buy a razor from them by all means do so, but I know one thing for certain. You can find the same razor in a thrift store, antique store, E-Bay or the BST and with Scrubbing Bubbles,a tube of Mass and a little cleaning time you can get the same razor for a fraction of the price.

This is not a bias against CFM, it's up the the individual on how you spend your money and if you don't want to do the cleaning yourself then this is an option. I prefer to find things and do my own restoration.

He has a high profit ratio in term of investment. He knows his craft and should describe his items more accurately instead of deceptively which I have fallen for in the past with him. They are a nice wife/husband team but when it comes to my money I don't care about niceness.

Some points I think you should consider in this context of ebay auctions are:

Not everyone lives near thrift stores or antique stores.
Not everyone has the time to go thrift shopping. Some people's time is worth more than their money
Not everyone wants to spend a ton of time cleaning something up. To me, thats part of the fun. But not everyone feels that way.

While there are many deals to be had out there, there are few sets in this good of condition. I wouldn't have paid 1/5 of that, but thats me.

agreed

If you'll look closely, he rarely (if ever) lists as actually NOS. He's stating the BLADES are NOS. Tricky little diversion that by itself makes me distrust and disrespect him. However, he does have that marketing mojo. Between his feedback score, great photos, etc, he does command high prices.

This "100th anniversary" bit is another example. I haven't read it closely enough, but I'm sure in there somewhere he does fess up that it's not GEM's anniversary, but that's sure what he's implying.

Yep. Way down the page, smallest type on the page "It is uncertain whether this set was manufactured for a Customer's 100 Year Anniversary or the Anniversary of the GEM razor~Sorry, our knowledge on this is limited."

This has been my issue with him, he is not upfront. I fell for this false description on many occassions. He is does refund the money instantly but it is inconvinience and many times i have lost other auctions while bidding on his which was a waste of time. This has also lead to CDM being banned in B&B.

Yep. Way down the page, smallest type on the page "It is uncertain whether this set was manufactured for a Customer's 100 Year Anniversary or the Anniversary of the GEM razor~Sorry, our knowledge on this is limited."

That is a genius way of pumping up the price...there is no 100th anniversary set, I mentioned this before. Maybe it was a engraved 100 anniversary years for Avery Tractor (Benjamin Franklin Avery began a plow company in in 1825 in Clarksville, Pennsylvania)...maybe it was made for Avery or employee and given as a present. It is funny how he happens to find this set that has a almost identical GEM logo with the words 100 year anniversary set, can be deceptive as mentioned before from another member here.. The Gem Triumph wasn't even around back then.