Buildup

[jimm262]

How important is it to remove buildup on the stone? I have relatively new Shapton Glass HR 8K that collects buildup super easily. This is after about 10 passes in each direction:

I've been using a microfiber cloth to wipe it off each time it gets about to this point (which seems to completely remove it). Is that necessary? Am I waiting too long/letting it build up too much? Or can I just ignore it or wait a little longer until there is even more on there?

 

[cugel]

Well an Atoma diamond plate will take care of that build up in a minute. To reduce build up, however, I would consider doing more work before jumping to the 8k stone and/or less pressure on the 8k itself.

 

[silverlifter]

I would see the same amount of swarf on my SG2k when setting a bevel. That's too much pressure or insufficient work earlier. As @cugel notes, a quick lapping with a diamond plate will clean it up.

Also, rotate the stone to evenly distributed wear.

 

[jimm262]

Helpful to know that I shouldn't be seeing this. I'm trying not to use too much pressure and trying to just rely on the weight of the razor (which doesn't mean I am succeeding at that goal). I'll try to adjust based on both of these tips: spend more time on the 4K before moving to the 8K and really focus on less pressure once I get there. Thanks for the help.

 

[LJS]

It’s an important thing to note and respond to. When you see lots of quick swarf on a stone like that, almost always means you need to go back down a stage.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

That is typical for Shipton’s, Naniwia Super stones and some other stones like the Suehiro 10k.

Not sure it is an indicator that you are using too much pressure, more importantly, what do the bevels look like? Do you have an even stria pattern that goes from the back of the bevel to the edge?

You should remove the swarf on the stone, if not, it will load up and can keep the bevel from making full contact with the stone.

On Super Stones it seems to be worst, and it can chip an edge.

Good news there is a simple fix, 1. Mr. Clean magic eraser, a melamine cleaning sponge, there are other brands and no name brands, and they will easily clean a stone as you have pictured with a few swipes. 2. Use a bit of slurry when starting with that stone, either Diamond slurry, slurry from another stone or natural nagura slurry. You don’t need much, and it will decrease the swarf build up.

If you use slurry, it can impact the edge, so use the slurry until you get an even stria pattern and have remove all the previous stones stria. Then wash the stone, do a quick 5-10 quick laps rinse and do your final laps on a clean stone to refine the edge.

3. Just lap the stone with a diamond plate under running water, a little swarf can affect the edge, but once the stria pattern is even, then re set the edge on a clean stone.

As an aside, I have taught a few folks to hone, in person, almost to a man the problem was never too much pressure, it was always not using enough pressure. On each stone in the progression, start with pressure and finish with light pressure.

 

[Gamma]

If it was me honing, that would be too much swarf after 10 passes on an 8k Shaption HR or HC, or any other 8k I've ever owned.

If the previous work is done correctly, I normally get to 15-25 passes and done, with waaaaaaay less swarf than that.

If I shortchange my 3k and or 5k work, and try to make it up on the 8k,
that's when I'd see that amount of swarf.

If you are tying to do weight of the blade pressure, one handed, then you are probably close to exactly that.
So I think it's unlikely that you are leaving swarf from pressure issues. The streaks do not look pressure-related.

Your swarf suggests you are not using x strokes. The trails are parallel to the sides.

First couple passes on an 8k, for me, are usually slightly heavier than the last couple passes on the 5k.
So, not weight of the blade, a hair more. Progressively getting lighter.

Assuming the 1k work is impeccable...

If my progression was 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, then I'd rethink 2k and 4k.

If it's 1k, 4k, 8k, then I'd toggle back and forth between the 4k and 8k and work on technique to learn how much work is needed so the swarf at 8k is minimized. Yields a smoother base for a quick finish.

 

[jimm262]

If my progression was 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, then I'd rethink 2k and 4k.

If it's 1k, 4k, 8k, then I'd toggle back and forth between the 4k and 8k and work on technique to learn how much work is needed so the swarf at 8k is minimized. Yields a smoother base for a quick finish.

2K, 4K, 8K, and I think the 1K is what I am missing. I went back to the 2K and it was doing it there too, so I spent a loooong time there. I think I finally ran out of patience (and my back was hurting from standing there), so I still probably moved up too quickly because it was still evident at 4K and 8K, though to a much less extent -- it probably took ~20 laps to get there.

And yes, not X strokes -- 15° heel leading strokes. So maybe a couple things to work on -- try X stokes and see if that improves things and get a 1K (which is now on the way)....

 

[jimm262]

That is typical for Shipton’s, Naniwia Super stones and some other stones like the Suehiro 10k.

Not sure it is an indicator that you are using too much pressure, more importantly, what do the bevels look like? Do you have an even stria pattern that goes from the back of the bevel to the edge?

You should remove the swarf on the stone, if not, it will load up and can keep the bevel from making full contact with the stone.

On Super Stones it seems to be worst, and it can chip an edge.

Good news there is a simple fix, 1. Mr. Clean magic eraser, a melamine cleaning sponge, there are other brands and no name brands, and they will easily clean a stone as you have pictured with a few swipes. 2. Use a bit of slurry when starting with that stone, either Diamond slurry, slurry from another stone or natural nagura slurry. You don’t need much, and it will decrease the swarf build up.

If you use slurry, it can impact the edge, so use the slurry until you get an even stria pattern and have remove all the previous stones stria. Then wash the stone, do a quick 5-10 quick laps rinse and do your final laps on a clean stone to refine the edge.

3. Just lap the stone with a diamond plate under running water, a little swarf can affect the edge, but once the stria pattern is even, then re set the edge on a clean stone.

As an aside, I have taught a few folks to hone, in person, almost to a man the problem was never too much pressure, it was always not using enough pressure. On each stone in the progression, start with pressure and finish with light pressure.

This is super helpful. Good to know that it's typical. But the slurry is a good tip (and how I typically do it) -- that session was an experiment (which clearly failed) with using no slurry and just water.

Any intuition or way to quantify how much pressure to start with? I get your point of starting heavier (relatively) and ending light -- just not sure how much is too much...

 

[jimm262]

Assuming the 1k work is impeccable...

Definitely not, especially since I don't have a 1K yet... But the amount of time I had to spend when I tried again on the 2K clearly implied that the lower grit were certainly not impeccable. The stria pattern looked good at each one, but that swarf is clearly something to watch for.

If my progression was 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k, then I'd rethink 2k and 4k.

If it's 1k, 4k, 8k, then I'd toggle back and forth between the 4k and 8k and work on technique to learn how much work is needed so the swarf at 8k is minimized. Yields a smoother base for a quick finish.

Can you help me understand what you mean by "rethink 2K and 4K"? Pick one or the other? Spend more time on them?

 

[Gamma]

Definitely not, especially since I don't have a 1K yet... But the amount of time I had to spend when I tried again on the 2K clearly implied that the lower grit were certainly not impeccable. The stria pattern looked good at each one, but that swarf is clearly something to watch for.

Can you help me understand what you mean by "rethink 2K and 4K"? Pick one or the other? Spend more time on them?

You are going to see swarf on sucessive stones after 1k - it's the 8k stone where you should be 'clean'. Not perfect mind you but clean. My 3k, 4k, 5k stones need to be cleared repeatedly.
That said - if the 1k work wasn't completed well, you will see likely more swarf on your next stone that if you had nailed it.

When I wrote "rethink 2k and 4k" I was referring to how well your honing there was done.
Coulda wrote "rethink the efforts on 2k/4k" I suppose, but it is what it is.

 

[jimm262]

You are going to see swarf on sucessive stones after 1k - it's the 8k stone where you should be 'clean'. Not perfect mind you but clean. My 3k, 4k, 5k stones need to be cleared repeatedly.

This is really helpful. Good signal that if I’m not mostly clean on 8K then I need to step back down.

 

[Gamma]

2K, 4K, 8K, and I think the 1K is what I am missing. I went back to the 2K and it was doing it there too,

Swarf on 2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, maybe even 6k there is normal. In diminishing amounts usually but not always.

so I spent a loooong time there. I think I finally ran out of patience (and my back was hurting from standing there),

Welcome to honing. Hone till it hurts, then hone some more.

so I still probably moved up too quickly because it was still evident at 4K and 8K,

Swarf at 4k is normal. It's the 8k where I want to be clean. Not purely perfectly clear but cleaner. Way cleaner than your photo showed.

though to a much less extent -- it probably took ~20 laps to get there.

Clear swarf off the stone when honing. It interferes with the sharpening process. Counting laps is sort of a waste of time, typically. I will usually reference doing minimal 8k work, by lap count, just to make a point so it's clear I'm not doing 50 or 100 laps on an 8k, or 12k.
A well refined bevel set process (1-5k or so) can create an edge that leaves minimal swarf on the 8k. That means less time needed on the 8k/12k and usually a smoother cutting edge at the end of the day.

And yes, not X strokes -- 15° heel leading strokes. So maybe a couple things to work on -- try X stokes and see if that improves things and get a 1K (which is now on the way)....

Put the protractor away, lol.
Maybe try x strokes or maybe even heel leading x strokes. Blade doesn't have to come way off the stone, all that is needed is a bit of a diagonal slide motion.

If you are honing a lot, make sure your stones are staying flat, lap as needed. Be sure the edges are chamfered correctly. When honing on 1-5k switch sides so you don't wear one side so much more than the other.

 

[JPO]

But the slurry is a good tip (and how I typically do it) -- that session was an experiment (which clearly failed) with using no slurry and just water.

Slurry is not your friend in this case.
After 2k slurry does more harm then good.
You should not have much swarf at 8k. If you have used light pressure you should be able to clean it off just by whiping it with your fingers under running water.

 

[jimm262]

Slurry is not your friend in this case.
After 2k slurry does more harm then good.
You should not have much swarf at 8k. If you have used light pressure you should be able to clean it off just by whiping it with your fingers under running water.

Yes. I was easily able to clean it with my fingers. The running water is the challenge. I haven’t figured out a good sink set up at home yet but probably need to figure that out.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, as you can see there are many opinions, but there are no rules to honing razors, you have to find what works for you. It is easy to test out many of these theories for you self.

Unless you are honing an eBay beater, you should easily be able to set a bevel on a 2k. if the razor had a decent bevel, even a 4k. A 2k will leave a much shallower stria pattern than a 1k, which may be easier for a new honer to refine.

I have reset bevels and remove a chip easily on a 12k, I did use slurry and pressure, it is not something I recommend but, modern synthetic stones are way more aggressive than most give them credit for.

Try slurry but finish on a clean stone to refine the edge.

Don’t try to read a stone by how much swarf is on it to tell you if you are honing correctly or enough, just look at the bevels and the edge.

Honing is all about making an edge, by flattening the bevels and getting them to meet, then refining the bevels, shallower stria pattern to straighten the edge.

You look at the bevels to see the stria pattern, not at the stone. Look straight down on the edge, if you see shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting, the edge is rolled, or you have micro-chips.

You should be fine with the stones you have now, a 1k will not add much to your progression. It will make deeper 1k stria and you will spend more time on the next stone in the progression, where you transition from grinding to polishing, where you remove all the 1k stria.

Get in the habit of looking straight down on the edge with magnification, if you see shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting. The goal is to get the bevels meeting fully at the edge, so look at the edge.

When learning to hone inking the bevels and seeing where ink is removed and not will tell you a lot about your technique, colored ink is much easier to see than black ink, with the naked eye.

Ink and magnification are your friends, as you climb the ladder for a better view, make sure the ladder is on the right wall.

 

[Gamma]

Simplified explanation of the swarf thing.

The reason the blade is leaving more swarf in one place, or several places, in a fixed pattern and not in other places is partially due to the blade is not making perfect contact from heel to toe and there are high spots on the bevel or apex. Could also be exacerbated by the stone not being flat enough. There is a lot to learn by looking at the swarf pattern while applying logic and reason.

Going with the blade though - where those high spots make contact with the stone, the steel streaks more readily. No one ever achieves perfection, but the less perfect the geometry, the more we see swarf marking from the 'high' spots.
It's like running a sanding block over a wavy surface. You hit the peaks, and not the valleys. The tops get sanded, the valleys are still rough - until the wavy surface is sanded flat with continued effort.
A flat stone will abrade a flat surface more evenly.

With the blade's swarf, there are also bits of the apex getting ground off. Those bit have to go somewhere. During early stages, this particles are more numerous and larger. With refinement the bits are smaller and in fewer numbers.

Even if the swarf isn't heavily embedded, or 'loaded' as we say, into the stone, it still alters the honing surface and not for the the better.
Consistency matters, removing variables matters. An uneven honing surface will hone unevenly. A loaded stone will be worse, but a clear stone is optimal. At any one given point this might not matter so much on its own but compounded over several steps it can build up. Good habits speak loudly.

If the 1k work is very good, the apex' 'teeth' created by the striations are more even and there are very flat bevel faces that terminate in an apex that approximates a straight line viewed from the top or the side. If that geometry is not created, and the bevel faces have swells and valleys from the factory grinding, or abuse, or whatever....and the apex wanders, then there will be more metal to be removed and additional swarf on subsequent stages.
If the 1k work is whacked, than everything after it will be whacked.

The bevel set is a process, not a 1k event. It's been postulated that the bulk of sharpness is mostly developed between 1k and 5k, I find that to be true. At this point the geometry should be superb. So the work on 8k should not have to correct any variations in the bevel's face, or excessive 'teeth' or meanderings of the apex.
So the 8k work is fast, and the working surface is clearer than compared to earlier stages. Same for subsequent changes.

In my personal honing, the 8k work leaves only light grey wisps of swarf behind. No lines, no streaks, nothing embedded. The grey wisps usually rinse off easily.

These visuals are part of the 'tells' for honing. When we refer to honing 'feedback' we include visual, audible, and tactile indicators that keep us on track. The 8k and subsequent stages are usually thought of as 'polishing' and not so much 'grinding'. So we're looking for a cleaner stone for those stages. Well I am, not sure what others want to do. I used the 8k surface to tell me if my ground work was on point or not. If not, I go back and fix it. Relying on feedback 'tells' to improve our honing skills is not a new concept, btw.

It takes me less time to do it right the first time than doing it 3x while trying to cut corners, and attempting to prove that the laws of physics cease to exist on my stove. (movie quote) .

 

[jimm262]

Unless you are honing an eBay beater,

Yes, this in indeed an eBay beater (Vintage R. H. Macy’s Full Hollow Ground #95 Germany In Case-Free Shipping | eBay - https://www.ebay.com/itm/374659567226). I haven't had to take any of my better razors below a quick touchup on the 12K, so I've been going back and forth between this beater and a Gold Dollar (https://www.amazon.com/Straight-without-stabilizer-straight-acrylic/dp/B07515QTX9/) to work on progression from bevel setting to shave ready. I can get both to a pretty decent shaving state, but not as good as the nicer razors I have. I'm assuming that's 20% razor quality and 80% my ability...

 

[psfred]

The Gold Dollar will be more trouble to hone, I've found it takes a while to eliminate the very rough probably belt sander edge on them. Takes quite a few laps to grind down to the actual edge.

Your other razor looks like an un-honed double hollow, and should get to bevel set very quickly unless you are using too much pressure -- that will lift the actual edge up and grind behind it so long as you are pressing down. Work the razor as if you are attempting to hone it without the spine actually touching the stone. I've learned what it sounds like to "torque" the edge into the stone a little and "fly" the spine over the stone with just enough contact the keep the angle correct. Easy to hear once you do it, and magically the bevel forms much faster.

Use a good 20x or so loupe or "microscope" -- the bevel must be flat and extend to the actual edge, making a straight line without ANY sparkly or ragged spots. Watch for the heel and toe honing faster on one side and the center faster on the other, it's very likely both razors have a slight warp. If you see one, you will need to run the blade off the stone on the "hollow" side where only the heel and toe are getting honed, and either do a rolling stroke on the convex side or use a little more pressure on the heel and run it off the stone as well using x-strokes. Either works, the point is that you need the whole edge to have a similar height bevel or you will end up with a "frown" which is likely to cut you. A narrow stone will take care of the warp for you, but you will need to pay close attention no too hone a frown into the razor by honing more in the middle than the ends. Narrow hones can put a hollow in knife edges too for the same reason.

If you can shave with them, it's just a matter of practice to learn to get better edges.

 

[jimm262]

Put the protractor away, lol.
Maybe try x strokes or maybe even heel leading x strokes. Blade doesn't have to come way off the stone, all that is needed is a bit of a diagonal slide motion.

Reading back through this thread, I’m curious what the diagonal slide motion accomplishes? Cleaning burr? Something else?