About to throw in towel. Any books on honing?

[Jayboz]

Update on slates. I tried a lot of the suggestions for using my finishers, with not much luck. Mucked up a few edges and they’ll prob have to go back for professional honing. 2 ended up pretty bad off the PA Blue Slate. Lots of ‘sparklies’ along edge visible w/o magnification. 2 were just ok on the Black Shadow. Significantly less visible damage, shaved just ok. I was using such light pressure (not a lot of undercut) I’m pretty sure it was the pre-existing edge i ended up shaving with. Didnt even bother to try the ones off the PA slate. Ill see if i get them shaving better with film bf sending them off.

Only thing i can i think of is that film allows for the tiniest bit of cushion whereas the stones have zero margin of error? I also might see if someone will take a look these. Maybe Im not lapping them properly or in the PA slate’s case, its has an inclusion im not finding or just not an example of a quality finisher.

I think i was more attracted to the idea/traditional aspect of it. Have a stone, pull it out for a touch up when needed, put it away. Wasnt looking to spend this much time with a rock(s) , not to mention all the maintenance involved (lapping, etc.). Clearly, its not working, but ive learned a couple things.

1. Natural stones, whether expensive vintage or cheaper newly mined, offer me no real advantage over just using film/balsa. Some of the pro edges using naturals were better, but only marginally (some were worse) and my attempts were complete bombs. Guess I’m lucky it agrees with me. If the best pro edges are just marginally better, there’s no way i could expect to mimic that. Not really sure why i didnt think of that.

2. Without learning to bevel set, which im not interested in doing, it’ll be highly unlikely i can just occasionally use a finisher successfully. The process of honing is too precise/intricate for my big mitts and has too many variables involved with each razor.

Thanks to everyone though, for suggestions/pointers/insights.

 

[psfred]

film does have some cushion effect, and it also tells you if you are using too much pressure by shedding it's grit or tearing.

However, using stones as touchup stones requires them to be either dead flat or narrow and slightly convexed with proper technique for each type. One "catch" of the edge on the stone by tipping it up too high and not riding on the spine can undo all your work, plus damage the apex, requiring a lot of work and time to fix on fine stones.

If you have no means of setting a bevel it's going to be very hard to properly hone a razor with a bad edge, since all the finer stones do is refine the apex produced at the bevel setting step.

So if film gets you edges as good as what you get from professional honing, why not use it? It's not cheating, it's just a tool to get a sharp edge on the razor!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yea, not surprised. I can get good shaving edges off those stones, but not great edges. I can see where a new honer would have difficulties. Add to that learning to use slurry can be an issue.

You might try honing under running water to eliminate slurry edge impact. Last night as an experiment I finished a razor on a Jnat over a plastic shoe box filled with water, that I keep in the shop sink.

I dunked the stone and washed off all slurry honed 10 laps, dunked the stone, 5 laps, dunked, 3 laps, dunked and 6 single laps dunking after each for a smoking edge.

So, if you don’t have access to running water, this works a treat, use super lite pressure.

If you can shave off of paste, rock on, there are no rules.

 

[Gamma]

I would always expect a 12k synth or 1 um film, or .25 diamond on a strop to make a waaaaay sharper edge than generic slate stones. Slate, in general, to me, is usually a mid range consideration. Using slurry on those stones seems to always set the edge back from where it started. Some, like the old purple Welsh slates from AJ were a bit better than meh but nothing to get jazzed over. Some people gushed over them but we almost never hear about them anymore. There's a reason for that. There was a time when some guys were pimping Dragon's Tongue slate as a finisher. Always wondered what they were smoking.

Can I finish on them? Yes. Do I want to? No.

Once in a rare while I find a slate that excels, and needs no special effort to function as a finisher,. To me, that is what a finisher is. There is a slate sold with a caveat "it's 7k but with your light touch..." Pfft, Since I can apply a light touch to any stone, why on earth would I pick 7k as a starting point? I wouldn't.

Eschers are a go-to exception in this realm, and have been since forever due to their uniqueness. I had a hard as heck black slate from eastern Europe that was sorta oily feeling but not actually oily at all. Darn fine stone, was seemingly more capable of overall sharpness in comparison to an Escher. Never came across another. That's about it and I have had a literal ton of slate in my house to check out.

If I had a dollar for every time someone that can't hone said that 'pro' edges were only marginally better than whatever their alleged benchmark is, I'd be able to buy a few new sets of hones.

Thing is though, it's just shaving.
Whether an edge is built on pastes, film, synths, naturals, it doesn't matter.
Just roll with what works.

 

[cajunrph]

I just finished the thread. I am in a similar boat to JayBoz in that I want to touch up my razors on a stone and get them back to optimal shaving condition. I have a Dan's black Ark and various Naniwa and Shapton from grits of 2K to 12K synthetic stones. Eventually, I want to learn how to set a bevel, but now, I just need to touch up a razor to get it back into shaving condition. In the most learned opinion of the experts here, would I be better served to just make some Diamond Pasted strops or attempt to hone on my Dan's Black Ark? I intend to learn how to use the stones, and I am trying to avoid having to send out the razors to get them honed. In addition to the Black Ark, I have a Penn Slate headed this way. To reiterate, am I better served by making a pasted strop to touch up my razors while I learn how to hone, or just dive in and try to hone the razor on the Black Ark. I have been advised to do 50 or so laps on the 12k Naniwa and many 100's on the Ark with the razor in an attempt to get it shave ready. I have very limited honing experience. I do have 5 razors that are in various states of shave sharpness, so if I Fubar one of them I have others to shave with. I also have 8 other razors needing restoration and complete honing. A few are just needing a honing. Those are the razors I'd learn how to hone on. Much good information on this thread.

 

[silverlifter]

or just dive in and try to hone the razor on the Black Ark.

Just do it! Go slow, pay acute attention to your strokes and how you flip the blade and you'll be fine. The Black Ark will refresh the edge beautifully.

Honing is just as much about figuring things out as straight shaving is; and the sooner you put steel to stone, the sooner you are on your merry way. Good luck! It is a terrific ride!

 

[cajunrph]

Just do it! Go slow, pay acute attention to your strokes and how you flip the blade and you'll be fine. The Black Ark will refresh the edge beautifully.

Honing is just as much about figuring things out as straight shaving is; and the sooner you put steel to stone, the sooner you are on your merry way. Good luck! It is a terrific ride!

Thanks for the advice, sometimes there's a paralysis by analysis. I need to just put steel to stone and get after it. Slowly with hardly any pressure.

 

[Wid]

Thanks for the advice, sometimes there's a paralysis by analysis. I need to just put steel to stone and get after it. Slowly with hardly any pressure.

Use tape!!

 

[cajunrph]

Use tape!!

Three of the razors were honed with tape. I thought I'd need to know if the razor is honed with tape or not. I do have some 1 mil tape to use, as well as electrical tape.

 

[psfred]

Black Ark will do a good job of reviving and edge I think. So will a coticule for that matter.

You don't need to re-set the bevel unless it has been damaged.

 

[Jayboz]

Hi @cajunrph. Ill give you my thoughts having been down this road. Obviously up to you how to proceed. For me, it was hard just trying to use a finisher, having never really sharpened anything (tools, knives, etc) besides a pencil. Not that i did it, but IMO, there are things you’re gonna learn if you start from bevel set that translate directly to using a finisher. ie how much pressure/torque is appropriate, how do i successfully and consistently complete a stroke that is needed, the feel of being finished, etc. Ultimately, i decided to not pursue bevel set or just a finisher. Perhaps though, itll be more intuitive for you or maybe youll be a honing prodigy. Im sure its entirely possible to just use a finisher though. I think @H Brad Boonshaft utilized this for some time if I remembering correctly.

No harm in trying diamond balsa either. Cheap and about as easy as you can get. Prob depends if you like the feel or not, but could use that while practicing from the beginning with a different razor as a suggestion.

What i did before this misadventure, was the following:

Get an edge back from honing. Shaved with it a couple times. If it ‘wowed’ me, i used it as is and enjoyed until it degraded. Then proceed to bring it semi-back with non-diamond pastes on balsa (feox, crox, dovo red/black). Once that no longer work, id ham-handedly try to get back using 3u/1u film. Sometimes i could get it back to sort of close to the original edge and used it til i decided it needed sent out. For edges that were good, but not ‘wow’, i took them to diamond balsa and it improved the vast majority of them for my needs. Simple, but it works for me.

Good luck with whatever road you choose. If you go the full monty and decide to bevel set, ask questions with pics. These guys are good at helping out/suggestions and have a lot of experience.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, can you get a shaving edge off a 12k stone?

Arks can finish a 12k edge to a comfortable edge, but only if the stone face is properly finished and the edge is already shave ready.

First learn to make a shaving edge off a 12k, then strop on a Chrome Oxide strop or .50 CBN, that can be your fall back and a decent shaving edge.

If not, you first should learn to hone on synthetic stones and sound like you have good stones. Once you can consistently make a good shaving 12k edge, then experiment with naturals.

With naturals each stone is different, synthetic stone from the same maker and grit will be the same and edges predictable.

If you take an edge that is not shaved ready, an ark will not improve the edge.

Yes, regardless of if your razor was honed with tape, use tape to protect the spine. If your razor was honed without tape, you will just make a micro bevel that can easily be reversed. There is no down-side to honing with tape.

Google (My Second Try at Honing), it is a step-by-step post of a new honer taking an eBay beater to shave ready. He documented the entire journey from bevel set to smoking shaver, with clear micrographs. Just follow the directions given to him and make your bevels and edges look like his.

 

[cajunrph]

having never really sharpened anything (tools, knives, etc) besides a pencil

I am a reincarnation of Jayboz. I haven’t put an edge on anything but back in the day I could sharpen a pencil with the best of them.

So, can you get a shaving edge off a 12k stone?

I have yet to try. My Paul Drees “Sistrum” seems to be a tad rough now. Im trying to get that back to shaving like it was before. I have about 10 shaves on it. Some were only one pass. Others were two. I’m only 16 shaves on so far into this wonderful world of learning a straight. My dilemma is the best way to get the Drees back to comfortable without having to send it out.

If not, you first should learn to hone on synthetic stones

This is the overall plan. I realize I’m putting the cart before the horse somewhat with my desires to touch up the razor on a stone. Maybe it’s best to just touch up with a diamond pasted balsa strop while learning the ins and outs of honing from bevel set to finishing a razor. Thanks for the advice. I’ll check out the suggested thread. Much appreciated.

BTW everyone gets bacon in DecemBOAR for a like. Haha.

 

[ZeelandsRoem]

My dilemma is the best way to get the Drees back to comfortable without having to send it out.

Proper stropping is the most important thing when it comes to maintaining a comfortable edge. So, make sure you get the best out of stropping. If you're confident you're stropping is good, then maybe you can try a pasted strop, if done correctly, it can extend the life of that edge quite a bit.

Maybe it’s best to just touch up with a diamond pasted balsa strop while learning the ins and outs of honing from bevel set to finishing a razor.

A diamond pasted balsa is also honing as it still removes steel, only the medium is different. You may also not find a diamond honed edge to be comfortable, it's a YMMV situation.

I have been advised to do 50 or so laps on the 12k Naniwa

50 laps on a high grit synth is a lot, maybe it's better to start with just a few laps and see how things are progressing. If you have a lower grit (let's say 8k) good quality synth, dropping in grit a bit before going on Nani 12k makes more sense. And even then, 50 laps is still too much, imo. On the other side, 50 laps on a *nat is in many cases reasonable.

I hope all this new bits of info coming from different sides won't overwhelm you. Honing is not that difficult. Sure, it takes some practice to "learn your hand" and a bit of reading, but it's not something which cannot be achieved. Some find it too much though, and I can understand that.

 

[cajunrph]

Proper stropping is the most important thing when it comes to maintaining a comfortable edge. So, make sure you get the best out of stropping. If you're confident you're stropping is good, then maybe you can try a pasted strop, if done correctly, it can extend the life of that edge quite a bit.

Well, I thought my strop game was good, but today I did something different and it seemed to improve the edge of the Drees. Maybe in an effort to use a light touch, I was holding back the edge ever so slightly or not allowing enough pressure on the edge while stropping. Today I made sure that the edge was in contact with the leather as I did the laps. I have read that you use no pressure to put your arse into it on stropping. Like everything, I'm sure it's somewhere in between. Any advice?

Also, how long should I expect an edge to last with only proper stropping?

 

[lightfoot]

Since you have pro stones and hopefully a diamond flattening plate an investment in a few $20 eBay blades to practice on might be worth considering.

In the meantime doing 10-20 strokes on the 12K may give you an idea how out of shape one of your current razors might be. If it’s already tugging or uncomfortable it’s unlikely you’ll make it any worse. You’ll be able to make a quick visual inspection if nothing else…

 

[cajunrph]

Since you have pro stones and hopefully a diamond flattening plate an investment in a few $20 eBay blades to practice on might be worth considering.

Yes, I have an Atoma Diamond Plate (600) to flatten with.

In the meantime doing 10-20 strokes on the 12K may give you an idea how out of shape one of your current razors might be. If it’s already tugging or uncomfortable it’s unlikely you’ll make it any worse. You’ll be able to make a quick visual inspection if nothing else…

I'm just going to put a blade to the stone and see what happens. Take the first step, sorta like the first downward stroke of the straight razor. It all begins with the first step.

 

[lightfoot]

Yes, I have an Atoma Diamond Plate (600) to flatten with.


I'm just going to put a blade to the stone and see what happens. Take the first step, sorta like the first downward stroke of the straight razor. It all begins with the first step.

Yeah and if you see something you don’t understand or are generally uncomfortable with just be ready to walk away from it until you get a little more info.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

I have read that you use no pressure to put your arse into it on stropping. Like everything, I'm sure it's somewhere in between. Any advice?

A little bit of pressure. More than "weight of the blade" anyway. Bias it toward the spine, so that any slack in the strop deflects at the spine. That way the edge stays flat in relation to the strop.

You don't have to (or want to) bear down on it but you need enough to be effective.

Somebody (Gamma maybe?) said that most guys under strop as opposed to rolling an edge stropping and he's probably right. Was definitely true for me for a while.

 

[Frank Shaves]

Everyone is different. You need to find your own space. I can only talk about my own experience.

I started with diamond paste on balsa. Worked, but I wanted to learn to hone - edge leading. Bought a Naniwa 12k S2-491. I like a good Naniwa 12k edge.

Then I bought a bunch of natural stones - the usual suspects. My skills improved, but I kept coming back to the Naniwa 12k, especially when setting bevels on razors that I restored.

My advice is to try different things until you find what works for you. Amazon sells the Japanese Naniwa 12k 20 mm Gouken version - model NK-2291 - cheaper than dirt. I bought one last year and love it.

It takes time to learn to hone. Your 100th edge will be better than your 10th.

Pay attention to the edge making contact with the stone. Play with the pressure. Does finishing with lighter pressure produce a sharper edge?