About ready to trade the Coti in for synths...

[Munxcub]

It's been weeks, dozens of attempts and I just can't get it any sharper. I'm sure it's my fault, but if I were on a series of synthetics I know I'd have a shave ready edge by now.

Can anyone tell me where in the process actual sharpness is created and where polishing begins? I don't know where to focus more of my time and effort, followed countless methods and tips and tricks, pressure, no pressure, heavy slurry, light slurry, yellow side, blue side, 2 different layers, dilucot, unicot, sharpie on the edge...

It was fun trying to learn this a couple weeks ago, but now it's just frustrating to the point of wanting to quit because nothing I change in my procedure changes the results at all.

This is more of a venting than anything else... but if anyone has any last ditch "if nothing else works, try this because it will" solutions I'd love to hear it.

 

[Woodash]

... but if anyone has any last ditch "if nothing else works, try this because it will" solutions I'd love to hear it.

My last ditch solution: Practise.
If you just don't enjoy it, that's another matter altogether....

 

[Munxcub]

Oh I enjoy it just fine, but honing away for hours and hours just for fun isn't really... My strokes have gotten way better. (as confirmed by the sharpie/bevel test) Also getting a pretty good feel for the TPT...

But I just don't get it. With synths I know where sharpness is created, there are tests to know when to move on to the next stone. With the Coti it just seems like "dilute slowly and hope it's ready when you get to plain water..."

Feels like trying to learn to drive with a blind fold and the only instructions are "keep practicing, you'll get a feel for it eventually, all cars are different"

 

[Wid]

Honestly, when I was looking to buy a coti the learning curve seemed to be a bit to much for me. The last thing I wanted was to get frustrated and call it quits.

I still might try one, one day when I get good with my synthetics.

 

[joel]

Need more info. There are a lot of factors at play here... What type of razor is it? Grind? Age? Condition? When was it last honed to shaving sharp?

When I hone with coticule's I do so by sound and feel. When it's gritty and there is good resistance across the stone, and a sandpaper like noise its sharpening the blade. When the blade moves pretty smooth across the stone with just a light "ice skate" like noise, its polishing. When the blade moves smoothly across the stone with little to no noise or feedback, you're good to go.

Remember though, Couticles are polishing stonesand the Blue isnt very practical as it cuts incredibly slow for its grit. I usually set the bevel with a diamond stone, which takes between 1 minute to 3 minutes (in most cases) - then do the final polish with a Belgian or similar stone. Total honing time for me rarely takes more than 5 minutes. If it's taking longer than 20 min or so, you're doing something wrong, or you have the wrong tools.

Also... Is your stone flat and how are you keeping it flat?

 

[joel]

Honestly, when I was looking to buy a coti the learning curve seemed to be a bit to much for me. The last thing I wanted was to get frustrated and call it quits.

I still might try one, one day when I get good with my synthetics.

Personally, I feel coticule's are the easiest stone to use. They provide the most feedback, and cut with the most consistency. Also, I've personally never been able to "over hone" a razor with a coticule and good technique, where as with a synthetic, it's remarkably easy. The essential component is to start with a solid base. The Belgian shouldn't come into play until you already have a sharp razor and a solid bevel and you're merely refining the edge. For that, diamond plate, in my opinion, are vastly superior to any synthetic waterstone.

 

[Munxcub]

The razor is a solingen blade, around 50 years old I'd say. Hollow grind, 1/2-3/4. It was previously honed to shaving sharp 2+ months ago. About a month ago I decided to touch it up on my little barber's hone which turned out to be lame and made the edge worse.

The stone is flat, it came lapped and chamfered from Jarrod.

It goes from gritty, to smooth to glass and it still isn't sharp enough.

Anyways, time to go for lunch.

 

[Wid]

For that, diamond plate, in my opinion, are vastly superior to any synthetic waterstone.

After receiving my first DMT 600/1200 combo yesterday, and using it this morning, I certainly won't disagree.

 

[azmark]

Do you know what coticule you may have?

From the few that I have, one is a pain to sharpen but I like it as a polisher. It took a few changes after I felt that the dilucot method alone wasn't working with this one. I added a few more strokes in the half strokes and it a little muddier slurry early on. IMO all natural stones have a curve to learn since they are not all equal but when you find the sweet spot they are a piece of cake to use and much more enjoyable.

 

[natchez]

Need more info. There are a lot of factors at play here... What type of razor is it? Grind? Age? Condition? When was it last honed to shaving sharp?

When I hone with coticule's I do so by sound and feel. When it's gritty and there is good resistance across the stone, and a sandpaper like noise its sharpening the blade. When the blade moves pretty smooth across the stone with just a light "ice skate" like noise, its polishing. When the blade moves smoothly across the stone with little to no noise or feedback, you're good to go.

Remember though, Couticles are polishing stones and the Blue isnt very practical as it cuts incredibly slow for its grit. I usually set the bevel with a diamond stone, which takes between 1 minute to 3 minutes (in most cases) - then do the final polish with a Belgian or similar stone. Total honing time for me rarely takes more than 5 minutes. If it's taking longer than 20 min or so, you're doing something wrong, or you have the wrong tools.

Also... Is your stone flat and how are you keeping it flat?

I am not nearly at 5 minutes, but closer to 30-40 minutes on most blades from start to finish, unless the blade is damaged. I also use a diamond plate and a 1K before hitting the yellow.

One idea I have is to for you to try a series of circles on your coticule. Lynn Abrams did a video on circles I saw, and the technique worked very well on one of my coticules. About 40 circles on each side of the blade and five sets did the trick for one blade I was having a problem with. I added a little water to the slurry after each set of circles. By the time I was done with the circles the blade was sharp. Then I washed the stone and finished on the coticule with just water.

Good luck! You might also post a picture of your stone, others with more experience than me may be able to give you advice depending upon what the coticule looks like.

 

[Woodash]

The razor is a solingen blade, around 50 years old I'd say. Hollow grind, 1/2-3/4. It was previously honed to shaving sharp 2+ months ago. About a month ago I decided to touch it up on my little barber's hone which turned out to be lame and made the edge worse.

The stone is flat, it came lapped and chamfered from Jarrod.

It goes from gritty, to smooth to glass and it still isn't sharp enough.Anyways, time to go for lunch.

You do know that you have to get the 'right' slurry dilution - or at least not too thick or it could easily be overly aggressive on the edge. Maybe try a lighter slurry, especially if you've already got the bevel set with something else.

Oh - and then there's that practice thing again...

 

[Munxcub]

Yup, I've tried heavy slurry, light slurry, medium slurry, almost no slurry, it seems to make no difference for the end result.

As for what stones I have, one is a regular shaped "La Dressante au Bleu" and I also have a "La Grosse Blanche" bout. Same results with either one.

I'll try the circles. Maybe I need to get a DMT or something to make damn sure the bevel is spot on. Although getting it to shave arm hair nicely is not a problem.

 

[natchez]

Yup, I've tried heavy slurry, light slurry, medium slurry, almost no slurry, it seems to make no difference for the end result.

As for what stones I have, one is a regular shaped "La Dressante au Bleu" and I also have a "La Grosse Blanche" bout. Same results with either one.

I'll try the circles. Maybe I need to get a DMT or something to make damn sure the bevel is spot on. Although getting it to shave arm hair nicely is not a problem.

With LGB I have heard they are slow, the other stone I have one and it is pretty fast. Try the circles and see if that helps.

 

[mikromicke]

I have very limited experience but managed to get my razors to a nice sharpness level after a couple of days of experimenting. When I started I couldn't get a very sharp edge from my coti because I was trying to do the laps with only water with a very light touch. As soon as I dared add some pressure on the blade I got nice results. Not sure if it will help but it might be worth checking that you are making good contact between the blade and stone.

 

[Kees]

After all this polishing the edge may have become overhoned.

 

[rambus007]

When I honed that razor up for you it came to me pretty sharp already as you had set the bevel with lapping paper. All I did was finish it of my norton 4k then the 8k side followed by water on my coti. I believe you enjoyed the edge when you got it back. May I suggest you set the bevel again using lapping paper and just do 10-15 circles on each side using a very light slurry then going directly to water for 20 regular laps. I am thinking that your coti is an incredibly fast cutter and it's overhoning before you realize it. Just an idea I had and I hope it helps.

Chris please don't give up on the coti. It took mr about 6-7 months before I understood how to use mine. Remember you can also use them as polishers as opposed to bevel setters + polisher.

 

[Joe Edson]

Do you know what coticule you may have?

From the few that I have, one is a pain to sharpen but I like it as a polisher. It took a few changes after I felt that the dilucot method alone wasn't working with this one. I added a few more strokes in the half strokes and it a little muddier slurry early on. IMO all natural stones have a curve to learn since they are not all equal but when you find the sweet spot they are a piece of cake to use and much more enjoyable.

+1

I have a coticule that I wouldn't even touch for using the dilucot on. It is crazy slow on slurry, but it is very useful as a final polisher and gives a great edge (i.e. it would be serious work to jump to it from my DMT).

My other coti is strictly for the dilucot method as it removes crazy metal on slurry and gives the best feedback for the dilucot method (i.e. I can jump to it quite easily after only using my DMT 625). While it is a fine finisher in of it self, I prefer my slow coti for finishing and usually jump to that one after the dilucot on my fast coti.

 

[Munxcub]

After all this polishing the edge may have become overhoned.

Between attempts I would dull it on a glass. Unless I was really close and just wanted to try Gary's method (I think) and just do the 1 swipe with slurry stone and get it there.

Terry I might just try that, the only problem is it eats paper like crazy, lol. Maybe I'll try some "less is more" in my next few tries, you never know, right?

 

[gary haywood]

i've got to say it ny on impossable to over hone with a coticule, unless you are using serious force or bad stroke that will damage the edge . i took my shave ready coti edge and did 100 laps on water before each shave for 7 shaves , the shave never deteriated nor did it get any better. i'm sure by now you already have agood bevel. i'd bet if your doing half strokes it could well be your technique. it is'nt easy to get it right on coticule and your not on your own. you have two nice coticules that will work, thats not the problem. it took me months before i actauly rated my coticule . i nearly binned mine. a year later i got mine back into action, and by picking barts brains i ended up with the best shaves ever better than my synthetics. it s hard what to say because i no you have got all the advice of coti.be etc.

whats the shaves like your getting ? are they realy pulling or just slight resistants/ slight drag ? how far of do you think you are?

give this ago

set bevel or if it is already set then thats ok.

create a slurry on your la drassante, the slurry needs to be like you have just poured milk on the hone so basicly milky realy fluidy but just white . then perform half strokes , do ten light normal sets with out diluting 20 laps per half set so 40 in total.. keep the slurry on the hone add a droplet of water if the slurry becomes a little dry. finish with 50 light normal x laps on remaining milky slurry. then finish on water only with another 100 laps normal x lightish strokes. then strop linen and leather.

your slurry will start run out a little just add droplet of water to keep it fluidy. if you do this right you realy should get a good shave so what your doing is working on a very thin milky slurry untill it maxes out then you further polish with water , try it out good luck. have you not got any sharpening paste , i often used ti rasoir pate on canvas strop that realy works and gets the edge where you need it if your struggling, its cheaper than getting any more hones and i gaurantee it does help.

 

[Munxcub]

Would stropping on a balsa w CrOx take it from almost there to all the way there? And if I'm going to do that is there any point to going Coti at all as I'd be shaving off a CrOx edge anyway?