About ready to trade the Coti in for synths...

[Munxcub]

i've got to say it ny on impossable to over hone with a coticule, unless you are using serious force or bad stroke that will damage the edge ...

Thanks Gary, I did get a lot of good advice on coticule.be, and a bunch here, and a bunch from Terry, it just seems that no matter what I try it's always the same.

I'm not putting any pressure on the blade, I even put it all on my kitchen scale and checked out what the 8-12 oz of pressure Bart mentioned in one of his articles felt like and what my normal pressure is (~<4 oz) so I don't think it's that. was checking my edge contact using the sharpie on the bevel and there's nothing glaring there.

as for shave quality, WTG is ok, not great but ok. It cuts hair, not tuggy... XTG is sometimes doable, but never comfortable. That's the farthest I've gotten off one of my coti edges. 1 XTG pass and I throw in the towel because I know it's going to get mighty rough from there.

Violin is where I get stuck, maybe the odd catch and split or pop... Which leads me to think "hey this is just like an edge that needs a touch-up now, 100 laps on water should do it as that should touch up a tired edge" but no dice. Never gets beyond that. Blue side showed promise as it really seemed to be getting sharp with the TPT but again, just a violin.

 

[azmark]

Would stropping on a balsa w CrOx take it from almost there to all the way there? And if I'm going to do that is there any point to going Coti at all as I'd be shaving off a CrOx edge anyway?

IMO, no. It will just keep it "there." It would be the same as progressing from 4k to 8k too soon and use a finisher. I think it's the sharpening stage where you are having trouble and when you get that step down you can use crox to finish but you'll do a serious disservice to a nice coti finish. YMMV

 

[gary haywood]

wtg not to bad but xtg not smooth and uncomfortable that sound about right. your just not quite there. i've been there and yes it does'nt surprise me that 100 laps on water just won't improve that often happens . if you sharpen nifes i'm sure your honing is all good . violin that is what you will get, so your just tearing the hair instead of a catch and pop . have you tryed swithching to the other yellow side with water to see if either one will work better with water. lets say you get violin of au blue and no more joy , try the other coticule with 50 laps on water see if there is a differance. other than that just go back to light slurry and hone away

 

[Munxcub]

IMO, no. It will just keep it "there." It would be the same as progressing from 4k to 8k too soon and use a finisher. I think it's the sharpening stage where you are having trouble and when you get that step down you can use crox to finish but you'll do a serious disservice to a nice coti finish. YMMV

Well that's just the thing, where is the sharpening stage? This is what is frustrating the crap out of me. Am I supposed to leave the heavier starting slurry there only adding water as necessary to keep it from drying out until it is crazy sharp?

 

[gary haywood]

Would stropping on a balsa w CrOx take it from almost there to all the way there? And if I'm going to do that is there any point to going Coti at all as I'd be shaving off a CrOx edge anyway?

i met up with ralfy and we and i no ralfys has done this also ray. you get violin. you do 5 to 10 laps on crox balsa hone the hht will increase very well. then you finish on coticule with 50 laps on water . you get coticule edge with the keeness you lack. you could aslo use a 10k manmade hone and do the same, it does work and you still get the smooth coticule edge

 

[Munxcub]

i met up with ralfy and we and i no ralfys has done this also ray. you get violin. you do 5 to 10 laps on crox balsa hone the hht will increase very well. then you finish on coticule with 50 laps on water . you get coticule edge with the keeness you lack. you could aslo use a 10k manmade hone and do the same, it does work and you still get the smooth coticule edge

Perhaps I'll try that out until I figure out how to get better sharpness on the coti.

 

[gary haywood]

Well that's just the thing, where is the sharpening stage? This is what is frustrating the crap out of me. Am I supposed to leave the heavier starting slurry there only adding water as necessary to keep it from drying out until it is crazy sharp?

the best way to think of slurry is. the thicker it is the faster it will cut also it will restrict sharpness big time. the thinner slurry becomes the slower it cuts but the sharpness level raizes. so if you let it dry out or become denser it will dull more .
so when your bevel is done, basicly your just diluting untill the slurry runs out, its just dilute and hone as the slurry gets thinner the blade should get sharper thats just how it is the thinner the slurrygets the slower the hone cuts , water only polishes .

 

[Munxcub]

the best way to think of slurry is. the thicker it is the faster it will cut also it will restrict sharpness big time. the thinner slurry becomes the slower it cuts but the sharpness level raizes. so if you let it dry out or become denser it will dull more .
so when your bevel is done, basicly your just diluting untill the slurry runs out, its just dilute and hone as the slurry gets thinner the blade should get sharper thats just how it is the thinner the slurrygets the slower the hone cuts , water only polishes .

Well in that case am I diluting too fast? Should I keep refreshing a light slurry over and over to increase sharpness? I am concerned that it's not getting sharp enough by the time the dilution is done.

 

[azmark]

the best way to think of slurry is. the thicker it is the faster it will cut also it will restrict sharpness big time. the thinner slurry becomes the slower it cuts but the sharpness level raizes. so if you let it dry out or become denser it will dull more .
so when your bevel is done, basicly your just diluting untill the slurry runs out, its just dilute and hone as the slurry gets thinner the blade should get sharper thats just how it is the thinner the slurrygets the slower the hone cuts , water only polishes .

I like that explanation. On my troublesome stone I add a few extra sets of passes before splashing water on it and finishing.

 

[gary haywood]

Well in that case am I diluting too fast? Should I keep refreshing a light slurry over and over to increase sharpness? I am concerned that it's not getting sharp enough by the time the dilution is done.

how much water are you adding at each dilution. it should be one droplet evry set or every other set, try every other set. as i think your stone is a smallish one every other set. just forget about every thing how many set etc just watch the slurry all the way and only add water as and when your slurry needs it if you over dilute just work at that level of slurry if you feel the slurry is falling behind top it up with some water. so you may dilute every other set every half set depending on how the slurry is holding up.

 

[Munxcub]

how much water are you adding at each dilution. it should be one droplet evry set or every other set, try every other set. as i think your stone is a smallish one every other set. just forget about every thing how many set etc just watch the slurry all the way and only add water as and when your slurry needs it if you over dilute just work at that level of slurry if you feel the slurry is falling behind top it up with some water. so you may dilute every other set every half set depending on how the slurry is holding up.

I would add 1 drop after every set. The yellow side stay wet for quite a while, it doesn't dry out like the blue side does.

I will try adding a drop every 2 or 3 sets, just before it starts drying out and see if I can draw out the sharpening stage.

 

[gary haywood]

try that and let us no how it goes . it has to be better, i'm sure it will, also try not to push the slurry of the top and bottom of your hone. so just stop shy of top and bottom, this way you keep slurry on the hone and not pushing it of.

good luck

 

[Munxcub]

try that and let us no how it goes . it has to be better, i'm sure it will, also try not to push the slurry of the top and bottom of your hone. so just stop shy of top and bottom, this way you keep slurry on the hone and not pushing it of.

good luck

Yup, I've been trying not to do that.

 

[Kees]

Just one more thought from across the Pond: I cannot shave off the coticule. I need to strop 1st. Do you strop every time before you test the edge?

 

[Munxcub]

Just one more thought from across the Pond: I cannot shave off the coticule. I need to strop 1st. Do you strop every time before you test the edge?

Yes, 60 on linen/canvas and 60 on leather.

 

[Kees]

I guess you better send razor & hone to a honemeister near you for analysis.

 

[DavyRay]

Have you been reading this other thread?

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=183068

You could have synths, and be getting the same results.

 

[Redhead]

Hi,
It might have been mentioned that you check the bevel. This can be done by using a permanent marker to mark the bevel, then hone and see if all of the mark disappears along the edge. If it does your bevel should be okay. The other possibilities are; that you don't have a reliable way to assess the edge as you hone to see if you are getting it sharper, you have a terrible honing stroke or that you have a coticule that is not suitable for razors.

Red

 

[wdwrx]

Hang in there, man! It takes time. But it will be well worth it.
When I was at the point you are, i'd try everything and anything I could think of. Try doing a final set with oil, lather, paste a strop with slurry powder, whatever you can throw at it. If you are desperate for a shave, run it up on whatever stones you have available to you, and go back to the coti for the final laps.
I've come to the conclusion that it's all in the final stages. Your bevel is set, and at this point your stroke should be fair. Keep going back to a very light slurry and working it out. Don't underestimate the value of good stropping too. Don't be scared of pressure, use a bit of authority in the motions, and strop lots.

Don't worry about pressure when honing. Lots of pressure works in fewer strokes, and less pressure takes more, but they will both get you there.
That TI paste I sent you should be in PDQ, that'll help you boost the keenness.

And buy more razors. It took me six months working with my coti alone to get to the point where I have good confidence in my ability to get one of those "magical" edges, but getting there still means more than a couple trips back to the stone. And I've re-honed every one of my 19 or 20 razors multiple times. And then again... and again... and again.

One thing to keep in mind is blown strokes. If you mess up a stroke, even a little bit, don't kid yourself, and accept that it's done some damage to the edge, and arrested your progress. It's not unrealistic to have to go back some to recover any damage you may have done. It can get pretty darn frustrating, I'll tell ya, when you've spent forty minutes on an edge, and then screwed up on a single little stroke just at the very end. Back to the beginning, do not collect 200 dollars, do not pass "Go".

But, above all; practice, practice, practice.

 

[azmark]

And buy more razors.

That's all I heard