Jnats- A treatise on Stamps and Kawa

[alex1921]

Moderator Edit: These posts were taken from the recent discussion in the Show off your Japanese Naturals thread.



Expert on stamps. Absolutely not. Just applying a little common sense.
A. Stamps mean nothing - like a true expert from Japan with family that deals with stones big time told me. I was just emailing with him few days ago about stamps and his words - Alex in a stamp culture like Japan where stamps are used as signatures you really believe it's that difficult to make a stamp that says anything?
B. When I see a stone with lines and other issues not pleasing to the eye that bears the same Maruka stamp being sold by the same seller I have to doubt the authenticity of the stamps. From what I learned from the above gentleman is that Jnats are priced like gems. The more perfect cut, pure, corners, no lines etc will send the price skyrocketing. Somehow there is a boat load of, don't want to say crappy so maybe not pretty, stones that have so many stamps on them they look like race cars.
C. When I see sellers on Ebay or their russian websites list grey maruichi level 5+ stones that somehow bear a suita ??? stamp I have to wonder what's going on. Now I am not an expert but you have to agree that the below stone doesn't look like a suita.
D. When I see legit sellers and their inventory that has a limited amount and on rare occasions marukas and then go on Ebay etc and the same seller sells 10 stones with maruka stamps a week I have to wonder.
E. Since the Jnat trade relies on trust, we were not there to see which mine the stone came from, so you have to trust your sources. When the source sells stones with weird stamps etc then how am I gonna trust the seller?

As you can see I dont say anything about the stones, just talking about stamps and trust. A lot of new guys go for stamps because they think that the stamp will guarantee them quality. Unscrupulous sellers prey on that and try to take advantage of people. Not my problem, true but if I can help at least one person I have done my job
I am not reinventing the wheel here. People have talked ad nauseam about it but lately the market is getting crazy with fake stuff all over so I wanted to raise my voice and maybe warn some people about it.

 

[Sebrazor]

Ok, here is my opinion. Maruichi, Maruka or Hatahoshi stamped stones are outstanding stones and highly sought-after in Japan and around the world. Stones with fake stampes are not. It is the same with banknotes, a one hundred dollar bill is nice, a phony is not.
As I said, I am not an expert on stamps. Which stamp is a Suita stamp? By the way, I have a Suita Mizu Asagi.

 

[alex1921]

ス板 - suita. So the upper right stamps says sho honzan suita.
I dont want to make claims on quality of stones since I dont think my knowledge and experience is there yet, maybe one day. The way I see it is there are a lot of good stones out there. We can see them on the sites of two members who contribute regularly here. But their stones have no stamps, on rare occasions they do but not usually.
Now you take those stones and you add a Hatanaka stamp. Still a good stone but the stamp is fake. Is this fraud? It is. A good forger for example will take an old painting and try to forge since a new canvas will be spotted easily. I know nothing about it just saw it on TV and it makes sense
Bottom line and what a brand new person buying a stone should do is go to a trusted seller, somebody that hones razors and get a tested stone.
Japanese know what maruka is. Sharpening is a culture in Japan and I highly doubt they just happen to give the famous marukas for free to some Ebay sellers to sell to westerners. Ain't happening. The odds are against that.

Just a healthy discussion and sharing of opinions, nothing personal. I love coming here and on the other shaving forum and look at Jnat pictures. I am always happy when people post new stones.

I have no fish to fry. I dont sell stones, I dont sell razors. Maybe one day I will shed some stuff but I am not ready for that yet. Like a mentor honer I met once said, it's not that I am a hoarder I just have a disposal problem.

 

[gabrielcr78]

Alex, thanks a lot for sharing this info and also your thoughts.

I'll be a bit off topic here, but this is also something i have been thinking (and i'm sure i'm not the only one), so i need to second Alex on his comment (if there is another thread where this is being dicussed please move my comment there )

I think it's about time that the community starts taking this situation seriously, start thinking and acting about this "strange" facts and speaking up. And that we learn and get informed about what we are buying.. we all know there are sellers in ebay that counterfeit not only stones, but even Iwasaki razors (laser engraving on an Iwasaki with stabilizers???? oh please... dear God!)

maybe I'm stepping off topic here, but from my part, i will do my best to restrict my purchases to reliable vendors with clean records (as some of the nice folks in this forum) and to my own knowledge and common sense... and learn from some other folks i know i can trust to increase my chances of not being robbed while feeding a dark business .... and invest my $$ in good stones.

I agree it's nice to buy non stamped stones and try them, and decide if good or bad; and if you have the budget, why not take the risk and also take the fun? That's a healthy bet i would say, but if it is non stamped..

but lets not forget, while some people an pay $1k in a stone ever week (or twice a week) some other forlks save for weeks to invest in a real maruka.. just to find out that maybe they are not as good stones cause after trying it he realizes that it's a a bad stone.. but hey! the stamps is there!!! what went wrong?

when something is stamped it should be given that the stamp on it is legit... when the stamp is so easy to reproduce and the price of the stamps exceeds the value of any other stones by 20 times, this introduces the opportunity to make a 2$ bill and sell it for 20....
Stamps should mean the true oriin of the and quality stone, but if that's not true this affects not only the market prices and the quality you can get from the stone, but also affects the value of the stones that have real legit stamps when the owner (that paid a fair price) wants to sell it down the road ... cause the comminity will not trust in ANY stamp in a few months... and the owner of the stone will find himself with a creat stone that cannot sell cause would loose a ton of money in the deal...

buying a stone with questionable seller at a ridiculous price just because it has nice stamps just contributes to this phenomenon we are seeing of more and more fake stamped stones, casue feeding the beast... filling the greed of some few non scrupulous...

it would be nice if it was like in the past when a stamp warranted the origin and quality of the stone, but if we keep buying 2$ bills per 20 bucks a piece that will continue raising the interest of the wrong kind of folks.

also, i one buys a bad stone and paid a fortune cause it had a fake stamp... bummer... sometimes it's hard to accept that one has been fooled or robbed, and that purchased a 750$ brick with fresh ink thinking it was the best hone ever... but if after testing it, one tries to pass that stone onto someone new to honing just to recover the investment saying it's a good stone.. i see that as bad as the guy who stamped it fake in the first place...
I mean.. I can tell myself i bought a great stone even if the evidence is not there, just to feel better with myself.. that's alright.. but keep the stone and embrace my mistake. and not praise the stone and the seller to over my failure cause that will not help other users in making their decision. at the end, i would think a good community member would talk about the issue in the community and provide evidence and good information about that seller.. so other don't make the same mistake.

anyway, mean no offense to anyone in this community ( i trust moderators will erase my message if they judge this comment as an offense, really not my intention) , but i think we all have seen some examples of this in ebay and facebook and we should all be working on preventing misinformation to happen.


just my 2 cents...

 

[alex1921]

And one more thing. I have kept to myself a lot of the practices of some of the Ebay sellers. Shady dealings, shill biddings, asking respected members of the honing community to push their stones for kickbacks. There is a lot of stuff going on.

 

[ovidiucotiga]

well it was about time.
I've been following this thread for a while and honestly the last few coments above make a lot of sense in my book.

Alex, thank you for speaking your mind!

I've been a member of the whetshaving comunity for @7 years now....restoring razors...collecting razors...buying and testing stones to build a small house untill now... i dont frequently like to speak up but hear me out, i think what i'm about to say may prove usefull for many initiates in whetshaving and whetstone collecting.

It's comon sense and based on facts.

For a year or two there has been an explosion of freshly stmped Maruici, Maruka and a few other well selling stones.

You see them pop up on ebay, on forums, many of the guys take pride in owning them and some are great stones.
is there something wrong in wanting to own a great stone...no...well actualy there is.

The whet shaving industry has exploded over the last years and has been a profitable business for many.
The Jnat trade is no exceptions seeing that these stones are regarded as one of nature's finest finishing stones for edged tools. They are highly desired and valued by conoisseurs and initiates alike.

- As Alex pointed out high quality jnats go out of Japan with great hardship....and they dont go cheap.

- Most of the mines are closed for half a century or more.

- The Maruka stamp and the Maruici brand stamp are not in use for tenths of years!

- Not every stone that left Nakayama was stamped Maruka...Nakayama yelded top quality stones but usualy the ones that got the stamps were subjected to testing and grading for tools swords...razors...

- Lots of Nakayama stock as sold to wholesalers in piles of roughly cut chunks of stones...not laped, not stamped...not a finished product...some of these went on to HataHosi and got stamped...some went to other wholesalers getting or not a stamp.

- At the moment there is a high probability there are more stamped Nakayama, Maruka, and Maruici stones outside of Japan then in Japan...you see them on ebay...in online stores ...on groups and forums....they are rare in Japan...but somehow...some sellers manage to have a few freshly stamped stones on stock every week...and even offer price drops and prices most JNAt online stores can't compete with.

- Also i'd like to point out that after the few pics of the Kioto Mining Association Stamp Registry leaked online...these stones started popping up like mushrooms after the rain....i'm sure the person who posted it had good intentions...but that information in the wrong hands can be dangerous.

Why does this happen?
Because we shut up and dont speak our minds. We are affraid our reputation might have to suffer or that people will hate us for starting a drama...but hear me out.

What's worst...letting this go on until it will be hard even for seasoned stone users and dealers to tell if a stone is real or not?

The stamps are getting better with time...soon it will be hard to tell if they are real or fake.

I can totaly get that this might be confusing for some people...Just the other week a guy on FB showed me his huge recently aquired JNAT collection ating on SAD...like 12-15 stones...he spent a wopping sum of $$$ on it and he asked me what i think of them...he was very proud of his collection.

What should i tell that guy...stop whatever you're dooing...it's horribly wrong those stones are not what they were sold to you for?!!! what would he think of me after telling him that...will he belive me they are fake or will he belive the seller he payed a few hard worked grands$$$...he needs to belive those stones are true!

How many of you want to end up like this?...sooner or later he will get educated and know that an Aiwatanii is not a maruka...or maybe he will learn how the Hatahosi stamp looked years ago...i feel sorry for the guy when that happens.

We all live in a crazy world...and if something sounds to good to be true then it probably is.

A stamp is not worth the money unless you are a collector....and you plan to keep that stone in pristine condiion.

A good stone doesnt get better by adding a stamp on it...just the price does....think about it.
Beginers need to understand that there is a learning curve and you might want to kake the scenic rute in your honing journey...like testing stones and learning how to hone properly before jumping head first in the rabbit hole.

Also a little bit of knowledge can save you a lot of cash...there are a lot of great sites and groups where you can get educated before buying.

Also i have heard that some dealesr offer significant price drops to buyers that advertise their stones...and bring more buyers in by reffrence.

Enough said. Think well where you are spending your heard earned money and who you are funding.
For every Fake stamped stone sold there are a few more unstamped on the counter.


Hate me...ban me...whatever...this is what i think of the current JNAT market.
And belive me there are a few very knowledgeble gentlemen dealing stones out there that i respect wholeheartedly....but there are also a lot of people just after the $$$

I call to the people that have something to say to speak and for the people that want to learn to listen.

 

[rideon66]

Not an expert either, but I think ultimately in today's market you need to know what you are looking at or talk with a reputable seller and pay more. The stamps seem to be in a grey area where they are not copyrighted so they can be from the same stocks we just don't know. We really don't know who owns those anymore. Yes the stamps are put on I believe by the wholesaler, but I don't know about the ones that look worn and really have no way to know. This does not make them fake, but the wording is misleading. I don't think they always know what they are looking at as you say some have wrong stamps for layer or even mine. I have also seen some terminology that makes no sense an example is Sunashi. I only know this to mean without su. I don't know this to be a pattern or a type of stone. It gets murky, but in the end if what you are looking at sells for a low price and a great stone even if some stamps are off or terminology is not right one can come out with a high end stone at a fraction of the cost. It is all a risk based on knowledge and some luck.

This has been all been discussed before Fake Marukas
I think the conclusion is they are not fake, but that would be how one looks as them and who or how they are marketed.

I can say if you can verify a stone is say a rare anomaly that has come form only one mine and seen only a few times always the same and the same pattern you can identify with good probability it is what it is. So I have such a stone stamped with a newer stamp which I lapped off anyway that cost less than half of what every other stone identical too it sold for and it came from a shady seller. I would not own such a stone at the full real price just too much to spend for one stone for me, but at the price I got it for it was way cheap for what it is and a good deal for me. It is one of my favorite stones too.

I too was interested in stamped stones (more so because I was interested in a stone that just happened to be stamped) so I reached out and informed myself thanks to others here and learned the stamps can have some good info, but the stamps go away if you use it and that is what my stones are for tools for making things sharp and with shaving smooth too.

 

[Sebrazor]

Thanks alex1921 for the information. I like stamps but I do not buy a stone only because of a stamp. The last posted stone with Maruka stamp might be a fake, but from the look I would say it could be a Nakayama and it is very likely a good razor hone. Ok, I know I said look says anything but nothing at all, but on this photo you can see that it is a very homogeneously stone and I think it has that typical Nakayama Kawa at the corner. Stamp or not, I would like to test the stone.

 

[mainaman]

Thanks alex1921 for the information. I like stamps but I do not buy a stone only because of a stamp. The last posted stone with Maruka stamp might be a fake, but from the look I would say it could be a Nakayama and it is very likely a good razor hone. Ok, I know I said look says anything but nothing at all, but on this photo you can see that it is a very homogeneously stone and I think it has that typical Nakayama Kawa at the corner. Stamp or not, I would like to test the stone.

A few years ago, someone posted a group picture of the back of stones from Nakayama, Shobodani, and Ozuko and they all looked the same. Impossible to say much from the back of the stone. That has been stated as well by stone dealers in Japan.

 

[Srdjan]

Agreed.

I look at Facebook groups from time to time, and can’t help but be annoyed at some of the posts displaying obvious garbage, decorated with stamps like a Christmas tree. Luckily, the posters usually say whom they got their stones from. Although it reads like praise in a single sentence, the picture says a thousand words - Enough for me to know who these “experts” are, I won’t ever be buying my stones from. One of them even has me blocked, because I called him out on his BS....

 

[rideon66]

What I find humorous about all this is history documented right here in this thread. I have more than once looked at every post in this and a few other threads. Anyway go back to the beginnings here and read and pay attention. Some of your best honers and reputable sellers on here were buying stones from 330mate and I can tell you the seller you speak of above has dealt with him too found him to be a crook selling stones he felt were trash not suitable for sharpening and not worth the money. History is a funny thing since those same people you say to be the experts where once loving those stones. This is not ment to trash anyone my point is actually the opposite. Sometime you have to deal with these sorts of people if that is where the stone you want is at. Some may have issues, but so do some from reputable sellers too and you really don't know and they may not either if they ultimately came from the same place.

 

[mainaman]

What I find humorous about all this is history documented right here in this thread. I have more than once looked at every post in this and a few other threads. Anyway go back to the beginnings here and read and pay attention. Some of your best honers and reputable sellers on here were buying stones from 330mate and I can tell you the seller you speak of above has dealt with him too found him to be a crook selling stones he felt were trash not suitable for sharpening and not worth the money. History is a funny thing since those same people you say to be the experts where once loving those stones. This is not ment to trash anyone my point is actually the opposite. Sometime you have to deal with these sorts of people if that is where the stone you want is at. Some may have issues, but so do some from reputable sellers too and you really don't know and they may not either if they ultimately came from the same place.

330mate was one of the very first easily available sellers of J-nats back in the day. He was only preceded by So as a known seller. I think it is important to state those facts so that people can get clear picture why he was popular. What is happening now is lots of sellers are trying to capitalize on the market and take advantage of folks looking for a good stone on the cheap by stamping left and right with all the buzz stamps and then asking for promotion of their business with promise of discounted sales. A vintage stamped stone does not have mint purple colored stamps. And a yellow tinted suita can't be shiro-suita. Most folks have no clue of those things however and drink that nonsense all day long.

 

[ovidiucotiga]

Rideon66 mate 330....diffrent times diffrent people....not much was available....we all learn and grow and I dont see his stones in this discution soblets keep on track.

I understand and respect your point of view but cand wholeheartedly agree with you out of principle.

You are saying that if the stone you look for is at a right price you go get it...no matter the fake stamps or who is selling it....you dont care about the stamps only that the stone is quality at a fair price...correct.

You seem like a man that can spot a quality stone.

 

[ovidiucotiga]

Thanks alex1921 for the information. I like stamps but I do not buy a stone only because of a stamp. The last posted stone with Maruka stamp might be a fake, but from the look I would say it could be a Nakayama and it is very likely a good razor hone. Ok, I know I said look says anything but nothing at all, but on this photo you can see that it is a very homogeneously stone and I think it has that typical Nakayama Kawa at the corner. Stamp or not, I would like to test the stone.

There is no such thing as "tipical Nakayama Kawa" i am prepared to put money down on 10 kawa pics of random authentic stamped stones face down, kawa up...mix of mines and morphologyes of stones.
it would be interesting to say the least.

Like a game of find the Nakayama if you wish.

You know why there is no tipical kawa?
Because there are geological studyes out there on JNATS...some people actualy studyed these stones and what they are made of...and how that kawa is actualy formed ... a layer of metal oxides that cover the surface of the stone.

Chemestry works in the same way at Nakayama..at Aiwatanii and Ozuke..or any other mine...it makes no exceptions...if the conditions are the same and the mineral content of the base stone is the same there is a high probability that the kawa formed will be highly similar.

Nature does not make one-offs...or exceptions.

Stating that a certain mine has a certain Kawa pattern that is patognomonic when these stones all come from the same Naori and got formed in the same conditions on the bottom of the ocean milions of years ago...is like saying 2 oaks from the same forest have diffrent leafes....yes they may look diffrent to you or me but the diffrence is in the eyes of the one analising the stone and the amount of knowledge behind the eyes!

Yes there are difrencess induced by layer because the microorganisms that helped form these layers lived over milions of year...things happened slow back then...variation existed...also pressure, mineral content...impurityes...play a significant role in the aspect of the stone. But kawa is not a pedigree stamp for stones.

In rare cases where stones were cut from the same layer in close proximity to one another there might be similarityes...between those stones of a certain lot...but that does not mean that similar conditions could not have been possible a few kilometers away in another mine.
This in fact might lead to all the kawa confusion....

This in not poetry gentlemen, it's science...and science is based on FACTS that can be prooven.
Unless you can prove what you are saying scientificaly we are just writing words and creating confusion for people who come here to learn and get informed in oder to buy a stone.

I can totaly get that the Kawa is an interesting approach in making someone else belive a stone has pedigree but get real people...what else can you go on they are stones...they are cut the same and many times look the same ...what else can you go on to promote your stone...the kawa or the stamps...and lately there have been many ignorant people using these to raise the price on mediocre stones...not to mention offering discounts to people that promote theyr stuff ao bring buyers in...that is just wrong! and you probably look at me as an imbecile when i tell you that so many JNAT experts have risen over the past few years on false claims with absolutely nothing backing them up but they own notoriety.

A stone that is not a Nakayama can not be made one by a stamp...neither can a Nakayama stone that has lost its stamp be anything else...the problem is the man looking at the stone and using it and what he desires it to be!

ok sorry for going off track here.

Admin, please if it's not to much to ask, move the discution to a new thread.
I am sorry but some things just have to be made clear...and the truth is always hard to take.

 

[rideon66]

Rideon66 mate 330....diffrent times diffrent people....not much was available....we all learn and grow and I dont see his stones in this discution soblets keep on track.
.

Not really wanting to be part of this discussion, but I feel this is on topic. It may have been a different time, but it is the same issue. People selling stones not on the up and up. There are sellers you speak of as being the reputable ones who bought stones from him. So it logically follows they probably sold those stones to others here and I think both parties were happy with the stones in the end. My point is a good stone is a good stone doesn't matter who sells it. By the time you buy it from what you perceive to be a reputable dealer it may have gone through a few others hands and some not so reputable. You don't know. With stamps being done over in Japan at a wholesalers warehouse and the end sellers knowledge being a bit off we don't know what is being done on purpose or not. Now there are other issues yes that are just wrong, but they can be avoided by avoiding the bay, but you will really lesson your opportunities on stones if you cut it all out. In the end if a stamped stones sells for a quarter of what it would sell for stamped or unstamped from a different seller and it is an outstanding stone why do you care if others take that opportunity.
Last I do question the posting from a member who has been on since 2015 and never posted anything till now. From what I see these are your only 3 posts ever. Correct me if I am wrong?

 

[ovidiucotiga]

You are correct, my first 3 posts. I mainly post on SRP calm down...i've been arround for years and have good intentions. I just dont have time to follow all the forums and groups. Probably same as you're here for a while got to know the guys..make friends...so you stick arround more...same thing here. This topic caught my attention and i felt the need to say what i did. It is not the quality of the stones i doubt i see many people are happy with them, and in the end all stones came from the mines so a stamp does not make a stone better....it's the use of the stamps for the ease of a sale and a bigger profit that displeases me...but i see you're ok with that....ofc many of the stamps used are out of trademark so i gues it does not hurt anyone to use them right...but still so in the end who knows maybe for some people it's better this way...you seem to be fine with it.

And please, relax you look offended. This is a friendly discution, based on arguments. I dont know how i managed exactly to offend you sir ...you deviated from the subject ... keeping on the topic is a forum rule ... but anyway, it was not my intention....perhaps you read my message in a bad mood.

The number of posts a man has in a forum is it an indicator of the man's knowledge?
If so i'll try to do less research and more posting.
Try to not let this affect your day and have a lovely one...like i said, my intentions are good.

 

[rideon66]

No not offended or mad. Just must have come across wrong or you interpreted it wrong. My point was that it was on topic. The stamps did not cost me more they actually cost me less. I have bought stamped stones that the stamp was a detriment to the sale price and the stone if sold by a reputable seller without the stamp would have fetched many times more than the little I paid.

The number of post does not matter only if the intentions are good.
I don't see a lot from you on the other site either and the only real pic was from a bad purchase and a broke stone.
Do you have much experience with JNATS?

 

[ovidiucotiga]

I dont spend much time on the forums...i have a busy life and prefer working on my spare time on razors or doing something fun. I try to only post when i have something usefull to say. you have a Pm

 

[rideon66]

And a yellow tinted suita can't be shiro-suita.

Sometimes I reread things and realize I missed something. As I understand it not all Shiro suita is white and not all white suita is shiro either. So yes a yellow tinted suita can be shiro suita as it is the bottom layer or stratum not a color. Even though I believe Shiro means white.

 

[alex1921]

Don't want to be beating a dead horse but in case you are interested how a "Hatanaka" stone is born
Yes a Nakayama suita that turned into a Hatanaka one. Since the stone was not stamped in January of this year we can all presume that the stamp isn't legit.