There are certainly multiple factors. I should have added Blackland Blackbird to the above list of manufacturers that stray from Esox' optimum rigid blade construction.
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Charcoal Goods - Is it a "rigid blade" design?
- Thread starter JWK1
- Start date
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I used to think I need blade rigidity in order to get a good shave without irritation. Razors that dont work for me include the DE89, Standard, Paradigm, and especially ATT (which Stan admits he built to be a very audible razor which is accomplished through blade chatter).
I get along great with the Timeless .95 OC and Shavecraft 102, which seem to clamp the blade.
However, after some mixed early results I can now get good shaves out of my Blackbird SB, and I have always got good results from the Rockwell on plates 4-6. So I’m not sure what to think anymore. I really want to get a Charcoal Goods level 2, but it does worry me a bit.
Whenever I buy a new razor if someone’s mentions it making a blade sing, I stay away because I think blade chatter is the culprit for irritation for me. If a razor doesn’t clamp the blade, but does bend it enough to accomplish some rigidity like the Blackbird and 6S, that seems to be good enough for me.
I get along great with the Timeless .95 OC and Shavecraft 102, which seem to clamp the blade.
However, after some mixed early results I can now get good shaves out of my Blackbird SB, and I have always got good results from the Rockwell on plates 4-6. So I’m not sure what to think anymore. I really want to get a Charcoal Goods level 2, but it does worry me a bit.
Whenever I buy a new razor if someone’s mentions it making a blade sing, I stay away because I think blade chatter is the culprit for irritation for me. If a razor doesn’t clamp the blade, but does bend it enough to accomplish some rigidity like the Blackbird and 6S, that seems to be good enough for me.
Get the Charcoal. I get less irritation from the charcoal OC level 2 than I do from the Blackbird OC. Both shave great, but for daily shaves the Charcoal wins. The BB wins for multiple day growth.
I'm not convinced rigid designs contribute to less irritation. Just a different experience.
I need to revisit my ATT R1... Thanks for the reminder.
Karve D, E, F.
Thanks for those photos and explanation, but it seems to me there may be more to it than what can be seen from these photos. The 34C, though I like it, ime is somewhat prone to blade flexing or chatter as you suggest, but with other very similar designs, including the Rockwells you picture, I've experienced none.
Chan Eil Whiskers
Fumbling about.
"Blade rigidity is not all about underside/baseplate support. The top cap bending the blade is a more important aspect with regards to shaving & blade rigidity."
That's interesting.
I'm not sure you're right, but it is possible. I'll have to consider it further. I'm sure bending the blade can contribute to rigidity, but my testing of slants has convinced me the blade has to be rigidly clamped by the cap and the baseplate to be rigid by my testing methods. My skin confirms my findings; the shaves and the testing correlate. Still, that doesn't mean I know what I'm doing and you're wrong.
I'll look further into it, and hope you can add to what you said. I'm sure you're convinced, but by what?
I'm not remotely interested in starting an argument here, but in furthering my understanding of what goes into blade rigidity and other factors making a good razor good. There are plenty of razors guys think are very good which I've never seen.
Happy shaves,
Jim
This has been my position on rigidity -- that blade bend/torque + capspan+well placed fulcrum may be more important than full bottom plate support, based mostly on experience. But I have to say I'm getting such great shaves from the Fatip/Old Type experiments I feel there's perhaps more contribution to ATG efficiency with that bottom support than I'd noticed...but the experiments continue. And there remain great shavers that just shouldn't be under the Rigidista bottom plate theory.
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It all comes down to the person shaving. One person, such as myself and a few others need all the rigidity we can get, others less so.
I have coarse, dense growth and sensitive skin. My hair composition is tough too. There are really only 3 blades that cut my whiskers easily, of the 20+ I've tried.
I can use less rigid designs, such as my Gillette Regent, which is also considered a rigid design, but its not nearly as smooth or as comfortable because they blade chatters in it, even when very tightly closed as have all Gillette TTO's to one point or another.
If I shave with too steep an angle with my Fatip Grande, which is an extremely rigid design, shaving over the swirl growth patterns on my neck I can feel the very edge of the blade flexing, digging in, and I can have irritation. If the blade was thicker, like the GEM PTFE in my MMOC, it can still tug a bit, but theres no flex so no irritation. It just tugs and cuts, it doesnt tug, flex, and cut.
The Rockwell is considerably heavier than the Merkur. Weight translates into momentum, which helps the blade cut. Angle of the blade when its curved could also be different, and it may not take a lot of difference in that curvature to make a considerable difference in feel.
It all comes down to ones own whiskers and how much rigidity someone may need. I've found the more rigid the design the easier it is to shave ATG, especially as I do, first pass at 48 hours growth. If someone can do that in under 5 minutes with an R41 and have a comfortable BBS finish, I'd love to hear about it. I dont think I could.
The main difference being between the two razors is the inherent rigidity they offer.
I agree the bend inflicted on a DE blade will help rigidity, but like I've said before, you cant clamp anything in a vise when the vise only has one jaw. The item will move given enough pressure against it.
The Squiggly Green Line as its been referred too lol.
I'll post the picture here as well.
The area of flex is the area covered by said green line.
When the blades edge meets enough resistance the blade can flex there. When it does, it tugs, flexes and digs down into the skin, pulls the hair, and the hair follicle, then cuts because of spring pressure in the blade. The result is irritation.
If the base plate offered equal support to the cap by clamping it such as a vice would on both sides of the blade, close to the edge of the blade, that flex would be removed. The result is a smoother and more comfortable shave.
If ones hair composition allows them to be easily enough cut that there isnt enough resistance on the blades edge to inflect any flex, it wont make a difference if its a rigid design or not, but it will be far more noticeable shaving ATG than WTG.
We all know how thin and flexible modern DE blades are. If they were still the .006" thick instead of the ~.004" thick, I'm not sure we'd even be talking about this. .002" added thickness would make a considerable difference in the stiffness of a blade.
The Squiggly Green Line as its been referred too lol.
When the blade edge encounters heavy, coarse and/or dense growth, it's my belief that the blade can flex minutely somewhere along that unsupported edge. The blade edge digging down into the skin as it tries to cut, increasing the force against the blade edge, causing an arc in the blade. Thats creating spring pressure in the blade. Its actually what is referred to as 'spring wrap'.
I'll post the picture here as well.
The area of flex is the area covered by said green line.
When the blades edge meets enough resistance the blade can flex there. When it does, it tugs, flexes and digs down into the skin, pulls the hair, and the hair follicle, then cuts because of spring pressure in the blade. The result is irritation.
If the base plate offered equal support to the cap by clamping it such as a vice would on both sides of the blade, close to the edge of the blade, that flex would be removed. The result is a smoother and more comfortable shave.
If ones hair composition allows them to be easily enough cut that there isnt enough resistance on the blades edge to inflect any flex, it wont make a difference if its a rigid design or not, but it will be far more noticeable shaving ATG than WTG.
We all know how thin and flexible modern DE blades are. If they were still the .006" thick instead of the ~.004" thick, I'm not sure we'd even be talking about this. .002" added thickness would make a considerable difference in the stiffness of a blade.
I don't have a 34C but among similar designs the fulcrum point on the Rockwell is closer to the cap edge than all others except for the Gibbs (it's equal to the Apollo). That may also be a factor.
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I agree. That would equate to increased spring pressure stored in the bend.
Thanks for that analysis and those excellent photos. I suspect that the distance between the 'fulcrum' and the blade edge, as well as the other variables mentioned above by @jmudrick, are at least as important as the amount of baseplate support in creating rigidity. Considering those factors and looking at the photos here, it seems entirely plausible that the Paradigm, ATT, Simplex, Merkur, Edwin Jagger and Parker Variant designs shown are not the most rigid.
No they arent, but they are for most shavers.
This is why I suggest a more rigid design for people that have ATG issues. Redness, irritation, ingrown hairs. Much of that can be eliminated, once technique and lather is ruled out anyway.
I am not a scientist nor expert to determine if the baseplate ridgetity makes a huge difference. The force created by clamping the top cap and baseplate on most razors should create enough tension and compression on the blade to cut/slice hair. I can agree that it may make a small difference in regards to blade chatter on a microscopic and audible scale. I have both the version 1 of the Fatip and the newer version. The first version was a rougher shave(not as smooth) because the top cap was not as wide (closer to the blade edge). But is it enough of a difference to determine if one razor design is significantly better than another? Yes, for the Fatip because both versions had total baseplate support but the newer Fatip had more ridgetity coming from the top cap. The pressure in slicing hair comes from under the blade and top cap support is way more crucial to a nice shave than baseplate support. With all other aspects of wet shaving being equal, is blade ridgetity the most important aspect in terms of razor design? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. For me smoothness and efficiency is king. I can get DFS with ease with my top 20 razors (2 R41s, 4 Wolfmans, 3 Paradigms, 2 Timeless, and Charcoal, etc.) regardless if there is or isn't baseplate support.
That's the commonly held wisdom. Esox/Rabidus hold that reverse whisker deflection is a significant factor among a minority of shavers with weird swirls/old man wiry whiskers which require super rigidiy gained from full bottom plate support. As I understand the theory.
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I believe thats because of the increased blade exposure, resulting in less blade rigidity because DE blades are so thin and flexible, and allowing the blades edge to flex more than the Mk.2 cap will allow.
This is why I suggested that for the utmost rigidity, both the cap and the base plate need to clamp the blades equally, like the Wolfman WR1, Timeless, Fatip, Gillette NEW SC and Gillette Old Type designs. All are essentially vises that hold the blade from both sides close to the edge.
The best I could manage over my two swirl growth patterns on my neck was a DFS with my Gillette NEW LC. As soon as I switched to a more rigid design, BBS became the norm. I had an excellent DFS first pass WTG/XTG today with my Gillette Single Ring and a feather blade, but I want the BBS finish and to get it, I need a rigid design.
I've never used an R41, but I'm confident I could achieve a DFS with one. BBS ATG, I dont know. I have my doubts.
Don't you mean cap span here? It's not the exposure per se which reduces rigidiy it's the increased cap span.
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Blade exposure changes with the width of the cap.
Of course. But to repeat myself it's cap span increase which reduces rigidity not exposure.The position of the edge vis a vis shaving plane has nothing to do with rigidity.
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I'm enjoying this thread. As a philosophy major who can barely change a light bulb, I'm fascinated by all this physics- and engineering-speak. All I know is that some of my efficient razors have a rigid blade, and some don't. Some have flex, and some don't. I like to think mojo makes all the difference.
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