Charcoal Goods - Is it a "rigid blade" design?

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

Hi Jim
Blade rigidity is not everything in what constitutes a good shaver. There are a lot of other factors.

Of course there are, but the OP was asking about blade rigidity. For some guys, that is very important. For others, not so much.

Example you have an SE2 and a SS General right? Go and see what razor holds more rigid and I think you will find it is the General. So which one is more efficient? Again I think we both know which one is.

Again, it's not just about rigidity. We know that. However, all things being equal, rigidity is good.

I tend to think the SE razors are all very rigid compared to many DE razors.

When I next assemble the SE2, I'll check what you suggested.

I’d be glad to lend you my Level 3 OC and I’ll guarantee you haven’t shaved with a more efficient razor and it’s not harsh like the SE2 as we’ve discussed.

Great shaves my friend!

I have no doubt this razor is good for a lot of guys, but the OP was asking about blade rigidity.

Do you think that making this razor able to rigidly hold the blade by doing what I suggested would compromise its shave? I do not. I think it would improve the shave.

I know you know a great deal about efficient razors, and that you and I agree on some of the more efficient razors on the planet (the Type M, for example, with a TWIN).

I know you've said this razor is even more efficient. Given what looks like a very large guard span, and gap, and blade exposure, and other factors, I am not surprised, but it could still be modified to make the blade rigid, and I believe that would improve the design.

Again, I'm not saying I know much about razors, but I think I know what makes the blade of a DE razor rigid, and that is what was being questioned.

Happy shaves,

Jim

 

[ching86]

I have a timeless 68 incoming, and the one reason why I chose that over charcoal goods was precisely due to blade rigidity. Of course, this might be a factor that has been overplayed, since I’ve gotten the best shaves with my blackbird, which isn’t that greatly supported and a so-so shave with my schone, which, obviously is one of the most rigid. Personally, I would think the problem lies with my technique, which happens to not be anywhere near perfect. Keeping a shallow angle has been relatively challenging, which I attribute to why I haven’t been able to get a great shave with my guerrilla, mamba or Schone, but have been getting pretty decent shaves with Rockwell on plate 4, blackbird and variant..


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[Esox]

Hi Jim
Blade rigidity is not everything in what constitutes a good shaver. There are a lot of other factors.
Example you have an SE2 and a SS General right? Go and see what razor holds the blade more rigid and I think you will find it is the General but which one is more efficient? Again I think we both know the answer to that and it’s the SE2.

I’d be glad to lend you my CG Level 3 OC and I’ll guarantee you haven’t shaved with a more efficient razor and it’s not harsh like the SE2 as we’ve discussed.
Great shaves my friend!

The biggest difference between SE blades and DE blades is the thickness. A DE blade is ~.004" thick, an SE blade ~.009 thick. Thats a very large difference. If DE blades were .009 thick, razor design would matter much less to a great many of us.

______________

To me the largest advantage to a rigid blade is the smoothness of the shave, especially when shaving ATG.

Many razors can be highly efficient. Two that come instantly to mind are the Muhle R41 and the Fatip OC head.

One is an extremely rigid design much like the Gillette OLD type. The other a less rigid design. Both could easily be called among the most efficient razors being made.

Both would quite likely work equally well when shaving WTG, but as soon as you start shaving ATG, the difference would be instantly noticed.

Rigid designs are easily spotted when one knows what to look for. Its all the the base plate design and how much blade support the base plate gives a blade.

Rigid designs.

Notice with all how the blade is clamped as if in a vise nearly to the blades edge.

Wolfman WR1, Timeless, Fatip, Gillette NEW SC as examples.





Less rigid designs.

Notice how the blade is not clamped in the same fashion as more a more rigid design.

Rockwell, EJ/Merkur/clones, Blackland and Charcoal as examples.



When it comes to whether or not, or how much, rigidity you need in a razor only you'll know. No one can tell you which will give you the shave you want.

I found out I needed a rigid design from using a NEW LC that stuttered and skipped over my trouble spots. A NEW SC solved that issue, but I wanted more efficiency than it gave me.

I looked at the R41 because I wanted that level of efficiency. I bought a Fatip Grande however and when I shave every other day at ~48 hours, sometimes well past 50 hours, I shave first pass buffing ATG. With a Polsilver or Gillette Yellow blade thats a single lathering pass shave and one small clean up over my swirls for a BBS shave.

That, is efficiency and a shave like that cannot be done without a rigidly held blade that offers generous blade exposure.

I would love to hear from someone that can do that with an R41 in under 5 minutes a shave. Or even from anyone else that shaves like I do. I cant be the only one! lol

 

[BigJ]

.

Rigid designs are easily spotted when one knows what to look for. Its all the the base plate design and how much blade support the base plate gives a blade.

Rigid designs.

Notice with all how the blade is clamped as if in a vise nearly to the blades edge.

Wolfman WR1, Timeless, Fatip, Gillette NEW SC as examples.

View attachment 857825 View attachment 857824 View attachment 857822 View attachment 857823



Less rigid designs.

Notice how the blade is not clamped in the same fashion as more a more rigid design.

Rockwell, EJ/Merkur/clones, Blackland and Charcoal as examples.

View attachment 857826 View attachment 857828 View attachment 857827 View attachment 857829

When it comes to whether or not, or how much, rigidity you need in a razor only you'll know. No one can tell you which will give you the shave you want.

Great explanation! Thanks. (Guess I am in the 'rigid camp' as the WR1 is terrific for me.)

 

[Esox]

Great explanation! Thanks. (Guess I am in the 'rigid camp' as the WR1 is terrific for me.)

You're welcome!

I found this enlightening regarding the WR1 vs the NEW SC in a direct comparison.

So Wolfman it is. But if the Wolfman is a 10 in rigidity the SC is a 9.8. So there it is

 

[Cino]

Loving this discussion.

 

[Marcos1]

A chattery Blade was always a recipe for irritation for me. Blades that were bent to tension with non congruent cap and baseplate surfaces were usually the culprit. Some better than others. The Wolfman design with equal superior/inferior blade support have improved shave quality remarkably compared to razors I’ve tried in the past and I believe this is due to the rigid blade support. I also suspect companies like Timeless have had success for similar reasons. Entire length of the blade both top and bottom clamped down. Not right or wrong with this type of stuff obviously but I now have a design cue I look for first when evaluating if a new razor may make it to the den. I abandoned DE for SE until my Wolfman arrived and now I’m loving DE again.

 

[BigJ]

You're welcome!

I found this enlightening regarding the WR1 vs the NEW SC in a direct comparison.

Thinking about this I also agree that the biggest difference is going ATG. Shocking that we are on the same page here!

 

[Esox]

I've also found that blade gap can make a big difference in shave comfort, less so if you use a very shallow angle. The more you ride the cap, the less blade gap matters, but the more blade exposure can matter for shaving efficiency.

If you're a neutral angle shaver using both the cap and bar against the skin, gap becomes much more a critical factor.

Blade gap, blade exposure and guard span distance are the three main design differences among razors. See my NEW SC and my Fatip Grande below.

NEW SC left, Fatip Grande right.



Blade angle is similar, but the biggest difference between the razors is the guard span distance. The distance from the edge of the cap to the edge of the comb.

The Fatip has a very short guard span distance, the NEW SC a fairly long guard span distance. Because the Fatip has such a short guard span distance, combined with its blade exposure, its a very efficient shaver. That difference for me constitutes one full pass less being needed for the same BBS finish because it shaves that much closer.

If the NEW SC had less guard span distance, its efficiency would increase.

Blade gaps for each razor. NEW SC left, Fatip Grande right.



Even the modest .023" gap the NEW SC has can cause me irritation if I need more than three passes because of how my skin travels through that gap and is essentially forced into and against the blade edge. This is how adjustable razors work, by adjusting that gap. Assuming its being used at a neutral angle, increasing the gap increases the steepness of the angle in relation to skin against blade edge as the skin passes through the gap giving in effect, a more 'aggressive' shave.

My Fatip Grande by comparison, I've used for as many as 5 full passes, all done directly ATG, with a Kai blade that offers an added .004" blade exposure, and I had no irritation at all.

The hardest part of all of this is, we're all individuals and what works for one may not work for another. Finding what works and understanding why, is the challenge.

Once it all comes together, the best shaves of your life are ahead of you.

Its been said before that everyone should have a Fatip. For the modest cost of $20 I believe its the best buy in the entire DE world. Once you find your angle, nothing shaves like a Fatip.

Thanks go to @Raven Koenes @Cal and GBNF TobyC. I never would have found my razor without any of you.

 

[Raven Koenes]

Thanks go to @Raven Koenes @Cal and GBNF TobyC. I never would have found my razor without any of you.

You're welcome Mike!

 

[Cybot]

Its been said before that everyone should have a Fatip. For the modest cost of $20 I believe its the best buy in the entire DE world. Once you find your angle, nothing shaves like a Fatip.

Thanks go to @Raven Koenes @Cal and GBNF TobyC. I never would have found my razor without any of you.

 

[Trenchdigger]

Hey, I was looking at my razors to see if any of them were a rigid blade design, such as the Wolfman ... turns out, the Merkur Classic 1904 OC has a rigid blade design too.

Now I have to do a side-by-side with the Charcoal Goods OC to see what kind of difference I notice.

 

[Cybot]

Hey, I was looking at my razors to see if any of them were a rigid blade design, such as the Wolfman ... turns out, the Merkur Classic 1904 OC has a rigid blade design too

Most razors that are based on the Gillette OLD have a fully supported blade.

 

[Trenchdigger]

Now I have to do a side-by-side with the Charcoal Goods OC to see what kind of difference I notice.

I didn't have time this morning for a side by side comparison, but I did revisit the 1904 OC.

Now that I am paying attention, it is amazing to me how rigid the blade is held. Definitely a desirable feature in a razor, but not a deal breaker for me.

ASAP I will try them side be side; not to test shave quality, but to "feel" the difference in blade rigidity.

 

[Esox]

Gillette OLD type, Merkur 1904, RazoRock Old type.


Good buy for the RR Old type head only at $10. As I understand it, its a milder shaver and has a longer guard span than the Gillette OLD type.: (HEAD ONLY) RazoRock OLD TYPE Razor Head – ItalianBarber

 

[blantyre]

Interesting thread, I’ve never paid much attention to this aspect of razor design but it makes perfect sense. The Timeless I s certainly one of the smoothest shaving razors I’ve ever used. One question - looking at the design of tto s - Gillettes, Krona, etc, it appears that these can never have a rigid blade. It looks as if I t is nay clamped over a very narrow region mostly relying on flexing to keep it in place. Nevertheless tto s shave ok in many cases.

 

[Cino]

I follow this and see the advantage of the ridgid blade design. What are the advantages of a non-ridgid design? There must be something, right?

 

[jmudrick]

Obviously someone believes that's the case. Personally I don't have a problem with

 

[deafficianado]

I love the shaves from the Paradigm more so than Timeless/Wolfman/New SC/Fatip/or any other razor. The Progress/Variant else shaves quite nice. Blade ridgitity is not all about underside/baseplate support. The top cap bending the blade is a more important aspect with regards to shaving & blade ridgitity.

 

[Esox]

I follow this and see the advantage of the ridgid blade design. What are the advantages of a non-ridgid design? There must be something, right?

I personally see no advantage to a less rigid design.

I can feel the very edge of a DE blade flexing when using a steeper angle in my Fatip Grande over the swirls on my neck. The Fatips are extremely rigid, but DE blades are also very thin and very flexible. I can use my Grande shallow enough that little bit of flex in the edge goes away, which is one reason I like that razor so much.

A less rigid design allows me to feel that even more so. The more blade left unsupported by the base plate, the more I can feel it, which is why the Gillette NEW LC didnt work for me. The NEW SC does a great job however. The difference between those two razors is the design of the base plate and how much they support the blade, not the cap. The caps are in large part interchangeable.

It really comes down to the individual user whether or not you need a rigid design and how much rigidity you need. To BBS the two swirl growth patterns on my neck I need as much rigidity as I can get and for the most comfortable shave, I need a razor with a short enough guard span to allow me to get the edge nearly parallel to my skin.

If DE blades were still .006" thick I dont think blade rigidity wouldnt even be a topic of discussion. A thicker blade is a more rigid blade which is why, I believe, many DE users of this forum have moved to SE's and injectors. The blades offer more inherent rigidity and as most say, give a smoother, more comfortable and more effective shave. It still comes down to the individual though.

I'm using my Gillette Regent every shave this month with Feather blades in the FFFMM thread and struggling a bit to get that razor shallow enough over my swirls. With that razor I can feel the edge of the blade flexing considerably more than I can with my Fatip.