B&B Modern Razor Aggressiveness Scale?

shawnsel · Jun 12, 2014

keithmax said:
Here is my list of my razors used on my face

#1 the king of aggressive, this one goes to 11 2011 R41
ATT H2
Joris OC
ATT H1 tied with Muehle Futur on 6
ATT R2
ATT R1
2013 R41 (I don't find this any where near it's 2011 predecessor but it does deliver a great shave)
Not so aggressive
Cobra Classic
Merkur Slant
Ikon CC
Merkur 34C

Mild
Muehle R89
Ikon OC
Ikon Slant

Keithmax, can I get you to attach numbers to each of those to complete your vote?

Thanks!
Shawnsel

DrAwkward · Jun 12, 2014

It's like herding cats. Good luck to you shawnsel and Godspeed.

shawnsel · Jun 12, 2014

DrAwkward said:
It's like herding cats. Good luck to you shawnsel and Godspeed.

Thank you, DrAwkward!

Towards that, I just posted a secondary thread with a poll on trying to determine a good mid-point reference for the Aggressiveness Scale:

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...iddle-of-the-road-aggressiveness-modern-razor

Haggises · Jun 12, 2014

I thought aggressiveness was blade gap. The end.

Everything else is subjective.

shawnsel · Jun 12, 2014

Haggises said:
I thought aggressiveness was blade gap. The end.

Everything else is subjective.

I wish it could be simple, but there's more to it.

This photo from B&B's wiki is I think very helpful in understanding the labeled blade exposure, angle, gap, and span ... all of which would have to be factored into an objectively measurable aggressiveness formula (plus there is also weight, balance, and handle length):

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=175370&d=1306848820

TonyJ · Jun 13, 2014

10.0 Muhle R41 (2011) grande
10.0 Merkur futur 6,5
9.5 Muhle R41 (2011)
9.0 Merkur futur 5
8.0 Merkur progress 500 5
8.0 Merkur futur 4
8.0 Fatip Grande
8.0 Cadet OC
7.0 Parker 99R
6.5 Merkur progress 500 4
6.0 Parker 45R
6.0 Parker 48R
6.0 Parker 91R
(6.0 Parker 26c open comb , still waiting for this, update later)
6.0 Merkur futur 3
5.0 Merkur progress 500 3
4.5 Merkur Slant 39C
4.0 Merkur Slant 37C
3.0 Merkur futur 2
3.0 Merkur progress 500 2
2.0 Merkur 34c HD
2.0 Muhle R89
2.0 Merkur 23C
1.5 Merkur futur 1
1.5 Merkur progress 500 1
1.5 Parker 22R
1.0 Merkur 25c

Some notices
This is my objective input based on three years feelings and every day shavings. I have tried all these razors and using them on my daily rotation all the time exept Fatip, cadet, parker 22R, Merkur 25c I sold. Parker oc is coming soon and keen to feel the results.
Progress 500 and 510 (which I have too) I count pretty much the same to shorten the list. 510 is a bit more aggressive due to longer handle.
I mostly use futur at 3 and progresses at 3,5 but I will update this list later if different settings on lower and higher end change somehow.
I have 48 blades on my daily rotation and I just started to test and rank them too. So it takes a while to finish all tests but that’s only a fun. Different blades act different way on a certain razor.
Merkur slants are one of my favourites. They cut very well but blade exposure drops them on a milder side.
Great thread, should be sticky. Thanks Shawnsel to start this. :thumbup:

GBinOZ · Jun 15, 2014

DrAwkward said:
Economists and other social scientists do this sort of thing all the time. And it works. Think of Shawnsel as the Nate Silver of shaving. Stop worrying about refining the model and just
VOTE
VOTE
VOTE

+1

shawnsel · Jun 16, 2014

From this poll, it is looking like the Merkur Slants might be our best 5.0 middle of the road reference point:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...iddle-of-the-road-aggressiveness-modern-razor

Also, I've created a second poll to further clarify this middle area of our list:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...on-Aggressiveness-Poll-Merkur-vs-I-Kon-slants

Please share any thoughts or suggestions about the polls, recommended future polls, or this thread as the over-arching project.

Thanks!
Shawnsel

shawnsel · Jun 17, 2014

As a additional/alternate way of voting and collecting data, I've created a series of quick polls.

Please visit each poll and vote on all where you have experience (even if you have already voted here):

1. Midpoint Reference Poll
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...iddle-of-the-road-aggressiveness-modern-razor

2. Merkur vs I Kon slants
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...on-Aggressiveness-Poll-Merkur-vs-I-Kon-slants

3. Muhle or Edwin Jagger 89 vs Merkur 34/38C
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...oll-Muhle-or-Edwin-Jagger-89-vs-Merkur-34-38C

4. Above The Tie (ATT) M1 vs Weber Polished Head (PH)
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...Above-The-Tie-(ATT)-M1-vs-Weber-Polished-Head

5. Muhle R41 (2013) vs Above The Tie (ATT) H2
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ll-Muhle-R41-(2013)-vs-Above-The-Tie-(ATT)-H2

6. Weber Polished Head (PH) vs I Kon OC
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...ess-Poll-Weber-Polished-Head-(PH)-vs-I-Kon-OC

7. Joris vs FaTip
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/408782-Public-Opinion-Aggressiveness-Poll-Joris-vs-FaTip

8. Feather Popular vs Feather AS-D2
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showth...iveness-Poll-Feather-Popular-vs-Feather-AS-D2

shawnsel · Jun 20, 2014

--Major Update to List--

Rough Aggressiveness List as updated on 6/20/2014:
10.0 Muhle R41 (2011) (out of production, but included as the most-aggressive reference point)
9.5 Merkur Futur (set on max at "6.5")
9.5 Muhle R41 (2013) (polled 4:1:0 as more aggressive than the ATT H2)
9.0 ATT H2 open comb
8.5 Merkur Futur (on 6)
8.5 ATT H1
8.5 Joris (polled 1:1:2 at about equal to FaTip)
8.5 FaTip
8.0 Merkur Futur (on 5)
8.0 Merkur Progress (on 5)
?.? Cadet TTO / RazoRock TTO
8.0 Cadet OC / RazoRock OC (or Jaws)
8.0 Merkur Futur (on 4)
7.0 RazoRock SLAB
7.0 I Kon SB
7.0 Parker 99R
6.5 ATT R2 open comb
6.5 Merkur Progress (on 4)
6.0 I Kon Slant (polled 3:1 more aggressive than Merkur Slants)
6.0 RazoRock Stealth Slant
?.? Parker 26C open comb
6.0 Parker 45R / 48R / 91R
6.0 Merkur Futur (on 3)
5.5 ATT R1
5.0 Merkur 37C/39C Slant (polled as defining "5.0")
5.0 Merkur Progress (on 3)
4.5 ATT M2 open comb
4.0 I Kon Shave Craft 101
4.0 Weber Polished Head (PH) (polled 5:3:2 as more aggressive than ATT M1)
4.0 I Kon OC (polled at about equal to Weber PH)
3.5 ATT M1
3.5 Merkur non-adjustable standard bar razor heads models 34/38 etc. (polled 5:0:4 as more aggressive than EJ89)
3.0 Muhle or Edwin Jagger model 89 razor heads
3.0 Merkur Futur (on 2)
3.0 Merkur Progress (on 2)
3.0 Apollo (new one made by apollosafetyrazors.com)
3.0 Utopia Long Handle
3.0 RazoRock Mission
3.0 SS Pils 101
3.0 I Kon OSS (OC side is 2.5?)
3.0 Giesen and Forsthoff Timor
2.5 Merkur open comb razor heads models 15/25 etc
2.5 RiMei
2.5 Feather AS-D2 (polled at about equal to Feather Popular)
2.5 Feather Popular
2.0 Lord L6 / L5
1.5 Wilkinson Sword Classic
1.5 Weishi / Micro Touch One / Van Der Hagen TTO
1.5 Merkur Futur (on 1)
1.5 Merkur Progress (on 1)
1.0 Feather AS-D1 (out of production, but included as the least aggressive reference point)

Notes:
- I'm unable to edit the original post ... so I'll have to start updating as a reply (like this)
- Please comment on the above list if you think something is out of place
- Feel free to still submit your own version of a list

The polls mentioned above are still open! Please vote in polls where you have experience!

shawnsel · Jun 20, 2014

shawnsel · Jun 21, 2014

Ooops. It appears that the true middle of my 1.0 to 10.0 scale is "5.5" ... not 5.0:

10.0	Extremely Aggressive	9
9.5	Extremely Aggressive	8
9.0	Very Aggressive	7
8.5	Very Aggressive	6
8.0	Aggressive	5
7.5	Aggressive	4
7.0	Slightly Aggressive	3
6.5	Slightly Aggressive	2
6.0	Moderate	1
5.5	Moderate	0
5.0	Moderate	-1
4.5	Slightly Mild	-2
4.0	Slightly Mild	-3
3.5	Mild	-4
3.0	Mild	-5
2.5	Very Mild	-6
2.0	Very Mild	-7
1.5	Extremely Mild	-8
1.0	Extremely Mild	-9

Note: the chart shows 9 steps above 5.5, and 9 steps below....

So, I guess I will be using the final, 30-day outcome of this poll for defining the "5.5" middle-of-the-road razor.

Cheers,
Shawnsel

pellidon · Jun 21, 2014

Of the ones on the list I have, the rankings seem to bear my assessment. I can add the Parker 26c.

4.5 Parker 26c open comb
3.5 EJ DE89
2.5 Merkur 1904
1.5 Micro Touch One.

I have a Fatip Grande in the mail. My assessment of aggressive is more about efficiency. The Parker gives me a little better shave with less work (passes) than the EJ DE89. I don't think it is more apt to bite than the other. Provided I pay attention.

shawnsel · Jun 21, 2014

pellidon said:
Of the ones on the list I have, the rankings seem to bear my assessment. I can add the Parker 26c.

4.5 Parker 26c open comb
3.5 EJ DE89
2.5 Merkur 1904
1.5 Micro Touch One.

I have a Fatip Grande in the mail. My assessment of aggressive is more about efficiency. The Parker gives me a little better shave with less work (passes) than the EJ DE89. I don't think it is more apt to bite than the other. Provided I pay attention.

Thanks for our first assessment of the Parker 26C open comb!

Also, please report back on the Fatip Grande. I've not tried it, but it should be significantly more aggressive than the others on your list!

Thanks!
Shawnsel

TonyJ · Jun 21, 2014

shawnsel said:
Thanks for our first assessment of the Parker 26C open comb!

Also, please report back on the Fatip Grande. I've not tried it, but it should be significantly more aggressive than the others on your list!

Thanks!
Shawnsel

I got my Parker 26C and it drops dramatically on my list. I will keep on testing because this scale is really interesting subject.
4.0 iKon OC (this one is on the way right now) :001_smile

4.0 Muhle R89 Grande
3.5 Merkur 34c HD
3.0 Parker 26c
3.0 Merkur 23C
3.0 Parker 22R
1.0 Merkur 25C OC

I have not feather razors so on my list mildest one is Merkur 25C OC, slants are nicely in the middle and R41 Grande on the top.
Parkers are pretty much for sure like this
6.5 Parker 99R
6.0 Parker 45R
6.0 Parker 48R
5.5 Parker 91R

Both progresses, futur and iKon SB (also on the way) needs more testing

shawnsel · Jun 23, 2014

TonyJ said:
I got my Parker 26C and it drops dramatically on my list. I will keep on testing because this scale is really interesting subject.
4.0 iKon OC (this one is on the way right now)
4.0 Muhle R89 Grande
3.5 Merkur 34c HD
3.0 Parker 26c
3.0 Merkur 23C
3.0 Parker 22R
1.0 Merkur 25C OC

I have not feather razors so on my list mildest one is Merkur 25C OC, slants are nicely in the middle and R41 Grande on the top.
Parkers are pretty much for sure like this
6.5 Parker 99R
6.0 Parker 45R
6.0 Parker 48R
5.5 Parker 91R

Both progresses, futur and iKon SB (also on the way) needs more testing

Thank you for your testing, TonyJ! You're currently our only source of metrics for the full range of Progress and Futur settings.

Speaking of which, I noticed something that might help in solidifying your Progress and Futur assessments ... the Wiki lists the blade gap measurements as having inconsistent variances between settings....
http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Double-Edged_Safety_Razors_Ranked_by_Blade_Gap

Merkur Progress 570:
0.38mm @ 1
0.56mm @ 2 (+0.18mm difference from lower setting)
0.71mm @ 3 (+0.15)
0.84mm @ 4 (+0.13)
0.94mm @ 5 (+0.10)

Merkur Futur:
1.12mm @ 1
1.19mm @ 2 (+0.07mm difference from lower setting)
1.35mm @ 3 (+0.16)
1.47mm @ 4 (+0.12)
1.60mm @ 5 (+0.13)
1.65mm @ 6 (+0.05)
1.75mm @ 6.5 (+0.10)

This was surprising to me, as I had guessed the blade gaps would likely go up evenly by something like 0.10 mm per setting ... but instead the Progress reportedly adjusts by 0.10mm to 0.18mm between each setting ... and the Futur by 0.05mm to 0.16mm (over triple the smallest difference) per numbered setting.

Thanks!
Shawnsel

shawnsel · Jun 23, 2014

As this has evolved, I've decided to specifically focus on razor heads and not handles ... as most three piece razor heads will work with most razor handles.

But towards this it would be very helpful to determine which razor heads are identical between various models.

Specific questions:
1. Does Merkur only currently manufacture two different non-adjustable razor heads? (Open Comb (OC) and Standard Bar (SB)?)

2. How many unique razor heads does Parker manufacture across its models?

3. Fatip only does one head?

4. Pearl (also branded as Cadet and RazoRock) manufactures how many distinct heads?

Any others?

Thanks!
Shawnsel

TonyJ · Jun 23, 2014

shawnsel said:
Thank you for your testing, TonyJ! You're currently our only source of metrics for the full range of Progress and Futur settings.

Speaking of which, I noticed something that might help in solidifying your Progress and Futur assessments ... the Wiki lists the blade gap measurements as having inconsistent variances between settings....
http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Double-Edged_Safety_Razors_Ranked_by_Blade_Gap

Merkur Progress 570:
0.38mm @ 1
0.56mm @ 2 (+0.18mm difference from lower setting)
0.71mm @ 3 (+0.15)
0.84mm @ 4 (+0.13)
0.94mm @ 5 (+0.10)
Merkur Futur:
1.12mm @ 1
1.19mm @ 2 (+0.07mm difference from lower setting)
1.35mm @ 3 (+0.16)
1.47mm @ 4 (+0.12)
1.60mm @ 5 (+0.13)
1.65mm @ 6 (+0.05)
1.75mm @ 6.5 (+0.10)
This was surprising to me, as I had guessed the blade gaps would likely go up evenly by something like 0.10 mm per setting ... but instead the Progress reportedly adjusts by 0.10mm to 0.18mm between each setting ... and the Futur by 0.05mm to 0.16mm (over triple the smallest difference) per numbered setting.
Thanks!
Shawnsel

Thanks for that list. I have seen it and it confuses me a little. Weber dlc is lower than Merkur hd which is lower than Feather as-d2? I don't have feather or any Weber (because they seems to be always out of stock) so I can't make true comments on those. What I have read and compared on texts order should be different . Anyway, my list might change during testing and it bases in any case on my own feelings and tests. I'm trying to be as realistic as I can.
Maybe it's better to focus some weeks mostly to shaving with progresses and futur to confrm more results.
Too much testing and only a one shave per day :001_smile

shawnsel · Jun 23, 2014

TonyJ said:
Thanks for that list. I have seen it and it confuses me a little. Weber dlc is lower than Merkur hd which is lower than Feather as-d2? I don't have feather or any Weber (because they seems to be always out of stock) so I can't make true comments on those. What I have read and compared on texts order should be different . Anyway, my list might change during testing and it bases in any case on my own feelings and tests. I'm trying to be as realistic as I can.
Maybe it's better to focus some weeks mostly to shaving with progresses and futur to confrm more results.
Too much testing and only a one shave per day

Some of the confusion on the list may be attributable to inaccurate measurements, or manufacturing variances, but much can be explained by the blade exposure likely being more important to aggressiveness than blade gap.

If you haven't seen this photo illustration already, it can be helpful in clarifying the differences between blade gap and blade exposure:
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=175370&d=1307416386&stc=1

Cheers,
Shawnsel

TonyJ · Jun 23, 2014

shawnsel said:
2. How many unique razor heads does Parker manufacture across its models?

Shawnsel

From Parkershaving website
"The Three Piece razors offered by Parker Safety Razor are quality pieces designed to last for generations. The three-piece design dates back to the earliest modern double edge safety razors of the early 1900s. Parker has enhanced this traditional design with modern materials and etchings that set the brand apart from others on the market today.

Parker Safety Razor offers traditional butterfly open razors that are reminiscent of popular vintage designs. These quality razors have hinged plates that open to allow convenient access to the razor blade. This design allows for fast blade replacement and is a popular option for many wet shavers.

What I have and read Parker use only three piece and tto heads[FONT=Tahoma, Geneva, sans-serif]. My 45R/48R/91R/98R have exactly same 3 piece head but totally different handles and pretty much different feelings to manouvre. TTo's what I have 22R and 99R goes same way. How long those heads have been and are they changed during time, I don't know. [/FONT]

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B&B Modern Razor Aggressiveness Scale?

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