Go with vintage, NOS and Henckels Friodur. Stainless steel blades only take a little longer to hone. I have found my NOS blades to be ready for shaving with any touch up or honing, unlike most modern razors that do need further honing. I have a few NOS Henckels Friodur and they are excellent.
Henckels or Aust
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- #22
To be honest, I really want micarta scales like my knives. Aust uses these, but I can't imagine unpinning a NOS razor. I do happen to know where there are some for sale in need of scales though...
I also wanted to correct myself, the other Friodur that I am drooling over is an 11-V. A 6/8 shoulderless 1/4 hollow. I need to see how I like the one that is on the way and maybe the seller will still give me a reasonable price later.
I think there probably is a difference, I don't remember who it was but I remember reading a thread from someone who had a hell of a time getting a decent edge on an inox blade, it was from one of the other major German manufacturers as I recall. So it's probably safe to say that not all stainless is created equal. I've never heard a complaint about the quality of steel on Friodurs, though, at least not in their golden age, and even the late ones that have issues tend to be grind problems from what I've seen.
Think about it this way. Once you hone it and shave with it, it's not NOS anymore. So you can do what you want. Keep the original scales in case you want to resell it. The good news is that Henckels made a LOT of razors so even if you did something unfortunate like cracking a scale it would be pretty easy to find another set of scales to replace them.
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- #24
Maybe I will see if Ralf will sell me a set of scales when I make my razor order so I have them...
A while ago I saw a YT video where a friend was talking about different stainless razor. If I remember correctly he said he liked one called Kibitz the most. Solingen made. I agree, I would be surprised if there wasn't a difference.
Only problem I have found with Friodurs when they come from the auctions is warped scales. I have had few 14's rescaled and even the 72V I posted is waiting for the scales to be straightened and then repined.
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- #26
Update, I am an idiot! Oh wait, that's already known...
I now have two Friodur(s), Frio(deu), coming from the same seller. I swear I didn't do this on purpose, I didn't want to spend another 20 on shipping per razor. I knew that was going right in his pocket so I made some ridiculous offers that I wasn't planning to admit to on here. Long story short, I spent a total of 2 mid-range stainless Austs all in. I now have a 472 AND a 11-V coming and I think I need a drink...
Please no more razors
Except Farmer Stan's GDs, please go taunt him!
I now have two Friodur(s), Frio(deu), coming from the same seller. I swear I didn't do this on purpose, I didn't want to spend another 20 on shipping per razor. I knew that was going right in his pocket so I made some ridiculous offers that I wasn't planning to admit to on here. Long story short, I spent a total of 2 mid-range stainless Austs all in. I now have a 472 AND a 11-V coming and I think I need a drink...
Please no more razors
Except Farmer Stan's GDs, please go taunt him!
This thread got me curious so I decided to hone my Friodur tonight. I only took it down to the 4k Hayabusa, followed by Fuji 8k, ILR, and finished on translucent ark.
So what I found was kind of interesting. The 4k felt sublime. The 8k did not. In fact it was kind of unpleasant. The ILR and ark felt about the same as always. Maybe the ark felt a little nicer, a little more magnetic if that makes sense, which was nice, my other blades always feel like they're going to fly off at any moment.
Visual feedback was same as always and edge appears to be on point. But I can't argue with you, I imagine that on certain stones it would feel off.
Steve56
Ask me about shaving naked!
I do not have an Aust, but my vintage Henckels Friodurs are good (72, 472, 14). The 14 is a fave for travel, back when I travelled….
Most stainless steels won't have as uniform a structure as plain carbon steels due to the carbides formed by the various alloying elements and the extreme hardness of those carbides. Chromium carbides alone are in the 75 HRc range which is the singular alloy needed to make a steel stainless, which occurs at about 12% of the composition. Usually, to stop excessive grain growth in stainless steels due to the high austenizing temperatures you'll have Vanadium added, Vanadium Carbides are in the 85-90HRc range. Other alloys like Molybdenum come out to 75Hrc. So unless you have an abrasive that is hard enough to cut into the carbide itself (which you're limited to diamond, CBN or SiC), what you end up doing through sharpening is removing the surrounding martensite matrix, leaving the edges of the carbides exposed at the apex. This will leave a less straight, rouger apex with protruding carbides. How much of this matters depends on the quality of the heat treat, getting the smallest grain and carbide sizes possible. These days you have powder metallurgy stainless steels with 1-2 micron carbide sizes and such but there have been very fine grain stainless steels around for a while like AEB-L and it's predecessor steels which were developed for razor blade use. As far as German stainless straight razors go, from my research they are variations of 420/440 stainless grades in Europe under the DIN 1.4125 and DIN 1.4021 standards (if I recall correctly).
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I have been thinking about the whole question of stainless, but the post yesterday brought up interesting questions. One, if you need something like diamond to cut into carbide then would doing something like setting the bevel on an Atoma 1200 make sense? Could this even be done? I assume it will be a little "rough," so the next question is how many course stages would you need to do before switching to synthetic? I understand at about 4 or 5k, you are refining and polishing the bevels. So at that point, would you still need to cut into the carbide? If this is mostly correct then I would think the problem would be in between the Atoma and your 4k. Do you just accept some carbides will be left? I ask because I have a NOS razor and am willing to do this correctly if I can. The current plan is to not go below my 5k so this effect should be minimised, until I need to reset the bevel...
Diamond makes nasty scratches. Not a problem for a knife, but it makes lots of work down the line for a razor. At least, that has been my experience. I know there's some steel geek thing out there that reports something different.
I have honed a razor on diamond/CBN only, because I had to. It's made of CPM-M4. But it was really hard to get it to settle down and be properly sharp. a 15K CBN stone finally did it.
I have honed a razor on diamond/CBN only, because I had to. It's made of CPM-M4. But it was really hard to get it to settle down and be properly sharp. a 15K CBN stone finally did it.
You don’t necessarily need to cut the carbides if the carbides are so fine that even when they are exposed at the apex they present a very small surface area compared to the thing you want to cut. For example, in a powder metallurgy steel the 1-2 micron size carbides (at the small end/best heat treat) with low carbide volume aren’t going to effect cutting performance too much on a beard hair that is over 100 microns wide.
You would want to cut into the carbides if they are quite large as in steel like 440C where carbides can be as big as 50 microns wide and with a moderate carbide volume of about 12%.
Jerry Stark used to make razors from D2 which is a moderate carbide volume, high chromium tool steel which was from what I’ve heard a bit of a pain in the a** to get to a good edge. No surprise since D2 is really a high abrasion resistance steel more suited to dies, the carbides and their high hardness contribute to it keeping shape for a long time. The dental company I worked for made all their dies from D2 for this reason. Works well in a knife though where the aggressive carbides will keep cutting when the martensite has been smoothed off by abrasion, not ideal for dragging across the old mug though.
One promising stone technology are resin bonded diamond stones which don’t cut as deep and aggressive as the plated type stones. They are more expensive however and don’t go into the very small micron ranges, the best stop somewhere around 5 micron. One could switch to diamond pasted balsa after that though.
Example stones here:
CGSW Resin Bonded Diamond [6" x 2"]
Columbia Gorge Stoneworks, Inc. operated by David Scott, the developer of Edge Pro Matrix diamonds, introduced a full line of resin bonded diamonds for knife sharpening.CGSW Resin Bonded Diamonds virtually don't wear with proper use and are easy to dress when needed. Since they don't break down...
Regular stones still give you an edge on stainless because as well as abrading the surrounding martensite you also run into a phenomenon called adhesive wear, which is felt much more on stainless steels. The stone basically galls with the softer surrounding matrix due to resistance of the carbides and high contact pressures then imparted to the martensite. Carbides can be fractured at the apex because the apex itself will tend to deflect away from the stone due to the carbides resisting abrasion, the edge is always going to be rougher than a non stainless steel. That gummy feeling you can get when honing stainless is because of this phenomenon.
I recently purchased a stainless razor so I’ll report back next time I shave. From my own experience with knives, when sharpened on traditional abrasives, I’ve never felt that they have the same quality of edge as a carbon blade.
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This is very interesting. I must admit that both of my stainless razors have coincidentally been finished on diamond paste. I like the low maintenance nature of stainless steel for travel.
Where sells that stone? Are you happy with its performance and durability?
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- #35
I really appreciate this information and am planning to tune my setup specifically for stainless because of it. The 5 micron stone appears to be about a 3k stone, so good for edge repair without reseting the bevel. The question then is, should I use 3 micron spray or go straight to 1? I would think the 3 could get used a lot for less dull edges, but then it might cut too rough?
After some looking, it appears that Naniwa makes diamond stones in 1k, 3k, 6k. That 6k might be the thing to get for edge maintenance. I also see some indication that Spyderco stones might be good in the lower/middle range and cheaper?
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It is an Edge Pro-sized (6"x1") metallic bonded CBN stone by, IIRC, Poltava. I got it from Gritomatic. I don't know whether they still carry it.
Performance is excellent, on the rare occasions when I find a need for a very fine diamond/CBN-type stone. I got an excellent razor edge by being very gentle with it. I think metallic bonded stones, once broken in, are less likely to make deep scratches than resin-bonded stones, or, especially, plates, because fresh, whole grit isn't right out there; it's immersed.
Durability is not a problem, and especially at such a high grit, for which sessions are short and gentle. But the process for conditioning metallic-bonded stones when you need to expose more grit is kind of a pain, and involves a soak in Ferric Chloride. Not only is that a messy business, but you have to contend with the aluminum blanks to which the stones are mounted. Ferric Chloride likes to eat at those, too. So I tape them and then wrap them in plastic wrap, which is better than nothing, but does not completely protect the blanks.
Sic powder seems to do the trick for lower grits, but for, say, 4000 and above, the soak in chemicals is still recommended in what I've read.
I’ve had a Henckel so I’d say go with the Aust, but the checkered Friodurs are beautiful
I have one Friodur in 8/8. When I bought it, I understand it was freshly off a Charnley Forest hone and it had a smooth edge. I have since put it over pasted balsa and pasted leather strops and although very sharp it has a rough feel. So if anyone can recommend a way to make it smooth again I'd love to hear from them as I paid quite a few dollars for this razor.
rbscebu
Girls call me Makaluod
Pasted leather strop? You may have convexed the edge. Probably best to reset the bevel on a flat honing surface (shouldn't take much work), go through your normal progression, strop on clean leather (your pasted leather strop will never be clean again) and shave. Then put the blade through a proper diamond pasted balsa strop progression (0.5μm, 0.25μm and 0.1μm) with the pull strokes and short X strokes, stop on clean leather and shave again.
Well all the other razors I finish on the pasted leather strops are superb. So I think the x strokes may be the solution I am seeking.
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