Jnats- A treatise on Stamps and Kawa

[stone and strop]

""Is there any other mine that uses the Maruichi stamp as well? I have not really seen any.""

There are no mines who use the Maruichi stamp. Only the retailer Maruichi uses that family stamp. Why would a mine use a stores stamp?

Sorry this is misasked. Are there Maruichi stamped stones that are claimed to have come from different mines?

Thank you for all this information it has been very enlightening.

 

[rideon66]

""isn't it true that Maruichi only sourced/distributed stones from Nakayama and Narutaki mines?""

The Maruichi owner owns the stock from his fathers store, that stock, in his flea market stall that I have seen at the markets in Kyoto come from several mines, and this son knows what he is selling and I feel that he is honest. This man was not a miner nor was his father. None of these stores from the 1940's or before into the 2010's relied on selling stones from just one or two mines.
Alex Gilmore

Sorry this is misasked. Are there Maruichi stamped stones that are claimed to have come from different mines?

Thank you for all this information it has been very enlightening.

I believe if you read what Alex says above you have your answer.

 

[stone and strop]

I suppose you are correct.
What mines has he seen them attached to? Pretty well every Maruichi stone I have seen is classed or stated as Nakayama origin, why is that?
Perhaps these stones from other mines are something the seller now does but did not do in the past given the closures or even stock remaining from other mines.
The Maruichi thing is sure not very well documented or supported in any meaningful way.
I would love to see some photos of the stamp from other mines. Even if they are only claimed to be from other mines.

 

[eKretz]

You probably mostly see them on purported Nakayama stones because those bring in the most money. It is certainly one of the most famous mines.

 

[stone and strop]

True, but I have seen them ONLY on advertised Nakayama.
Just seems odd.

 

[eKretz]

I would also surmise that there are plenty of neophytes who confuse "Maruichi" and "Maruka" - the latter of which is found only on Nakayama-mined stones, to my knowledge. I would again surmise that some less-than-reputable sellers are happy to take advantage of this confusion.

 

[alex1921]

You know the seller is such a fraud that even his EBay page picture is stolen.

 

[Steve56]

I have seen many Maruichi stones advertized as Narutaki on Japanese sites.

It's probably worth restating that most stamps do not mean that the stone is suitable for a particular use, ie razors, unless it has a grading stamp like a razor stamp (imagine that!)

The genuine Hatahoshi and Marukas I have are more pure than the run of the mill stone, and the Hatanaka stamped stones are more regular in shape. But I have many odd sized, unstamped or generically stamped stones that are just as good or better for any particular purpose. I have a small koppa with a generic shohonyama stamp, about 120mm x 50mm that no one wanted, the auction closed at $26, and it's a better razor hone than a $2000 genuine Hatanaka Maruka kiita that I have. By a good bit.

I don't like buying stones that are stamped on the face anymore, you may pay hundreds or even a thousand dollars (depending on other attributes) for that stamp, and after you lap it, you've lost hundreds of dollars of .... ink. So if stamps don't indicate suitability for razors, it seems kind of foolish to pay extra for them. I'd rather take that extra 'stamp money' and buy 3-6 more unstamped stones based on whatever I can observe and I'll be more likely to end up with what I want.

Truly good razor hones, ones that can put that special, stoopidly smooth edge on any steel, are not that common and IME you're not more likely to get one buying a stamped stone. To get that edge, you have to buy several stones and test them yourself over a period of time and over several types of steel and vintages of razors, and of course shave with those edges. Dealers can't do this for you, they don't have time to test every stone that they have to this extent, though better dealers have a better idea of what they have.

Be prepared to dig deep though, for every stone of this caliber, you'll have 3-6 others that aren't, so the really good ones end up being rather expensive. That's not to say that many harder jnats can't hone a razor because they can, at least to the point that you can shave with edges from them, but I'm talking about stones that can make a very special edge.

Cheers, Steve

 

[njtnjt]

Great discussion guys. Thanks!

 

[rideon66]

I agree with Steve on a lot of this. I think the only way to get what you want is to try it out stamped or not.

I came to the realization that unless you can lap the bottom of a stone the stamp is really more of a hindrance. My guess is if you are really that concerned with paying that much for a stamp you can either afford to wipe it away and use the stone, or you are a collector and it will never be used and sit on a shelf. Well if you are the collector might as well buy the prettiest stone with the prettiest stamp and not worry about if the stone does anything at all. Sorry to put it that way I do understand stone collecting, but I use all mine too.

So I really just wanted to put somethings to rest here also. If you google Fake Stones JNS you will find an old wiki (not sure how old , but old enough that it isn't really still there, but you can read it by doing the above search. If all stone retailers or wholesalers in Japan often accuse each other of selling fake or bad stones and it is a common problem in Japan and this is an old wiki what does that tell you about the majority of these stamped stones in the US.

I think this was written before anyone posted the stamps so faking has been around in Japan a long time. So you really can only believe a very trusted few who bought stones from a mine or miner or very reputable wholesaler from days of old. I think a much higher percentage of stones with stamps are faked more than any of us want to believe and it has been going on for a long time so they are all mixed in and still being added to the confusing mess.

I have never bought a stone for a stamp, heck I never bought a Maruka that I know of, but I have bought a stone I wanted that had a stamp. This is where it has got me, great stone no stamp. It didn't matter if the stamp was there or not it is the same stone in the end. Fake stamp, real stamp, not stamped there will be good bad and average stones mixed up in all of these categories.

 

[njtnjt]

You know the seller is such a fraud that even his EBay page picture is stolen.
View attachment 888433

If someone is using your photos Alex ~ know that you own the copyright if you want to go to the lengths to have them taken down. I’m a commercial photographer and have had to pursue this a few times.
Best Wishes.

 

[alex1921]

If someone is using your photos Alex ~ know that you own the copyright if you want to go to the lengths to have them taken down. I’m a commercial photographer and have had to pursue this a few times.
Best Wishes.

That's good to know. Thank you. The above picture actually is not mine, it's taken from Alex G's video which he posted on his YT channel. It's showing the air raid shelter.

 

[alx gilmore]

If someone is using your photos Alex ~ know that you own the copyright if you want to go to the lengths to have them taken down. I’m a commercial photographer and have had to pursue this a few times.
Best Wishes.

Yes, I am mad about him stealing my photo of that shelf of stones, there is now way in hell that he has even seen those stones because the stones are no longer there for him to take a photo. Guess why.

If you could guide me how to nail that guy I would appreciate it very much.
PM to follow.

Alex Gilmore

 

[njtnjt]

I bought one of those air raid shelter stones from Alex ~ so I know where the image came from. It’s the only stone I use.
PM has been answered.

 

[rideon66]

Wow did the other shave forum actually lock the thread about this as vendor bashing. Do they want to enable this kind of criminal activity?

 

[Kentos]

I haven’t been around the honing forums in a long time, but it is interesting that the knowledge in Jnats has progressed to the point where experts can determine the quality and origin of a Jnat through a picture on computer screen. Spotting obvious fakes is different of course. Like spotting a fake Fendi bag.

 

[alex1921]

The russian has changed his name to kossy_1123 but make no mistake, same BS tactics. Now he has stamped hatahoshi koma. Well only problem is that the hatahoshi mark was a sticker on those and not a red stamp See for yourself. I have attached a real hatahoshi koma for comparison. Of course he knows that since he has one on his Instagram account but i presume it easier to reuse your stamps with different ink color than making stickers. Once again, be careful.

 

[gabrielcr78]

uhhh thanks for keeping us up to day man!

 

[Chan Eil Whiskers]

well.. my 2 cents....
taken the example of the rolex and some more.

First scenario: A person walks into a jewelry or a fancy store and buys a Rolex, then pay the rolex price but the seller put in a box a cheap Chinese imitation. That person can go to the police and get the authorities to intervene... WHY? cause what the store is doing is wrong. It IS deceiving to the consumer. is doing something that is not only illegal, it is also immoral and despicable. Is the buyer to blame? No, of course no, (i hope we all agree on that cause otherwise there must be something terribly wrong with the way we have been raised)

The seller can try to justify his crime but saying that the Chinese watch looks just as good, and it's just as exact marking time as a rolex.. hell it even has some gold in it!!! but the fact is that it is NOT a Rolex. most likely the price of the watch for the seller was much lower, cause otherwise it would make no sense to sell the chinese instead of the rolex, but that's not what's wrong.. if the seller is capable of selling the Chinese watch at the same price and make 10 times more money out of it.. good for him! but the minute he says it's a rolex then he is deceiving the customer. It's just not morally right. nor legal.

Now, what if the Seller does not know whee the stone comes from? it is STILL wrong to say it is a roles cause he simple does not know. he cays say something like "i think is its... " but not adertise it as such. If in addition to not knowing, if he puts a symbol like "rolex" logo in the watch.. it is even worst. WHY because he knows the watch was a cheap chinese copy and the only reason to add the logo is to make sure the buyer buys his lie. make sure that the deception is complete.
let's set aside the fact that the logo is a current brand. and say that the logo is free to use, not intellectual propperty of a company or a person... The only scenario where selling the counterfeit watch is that the seller is plain and honest with the buyer and tell him: "this is not a real rolex.. buy it and use it as if it was and then you buy some status... " yeah you can imagine the price that the buyer is going to be willing to pay.. and yes, it's not going to be the rolex price baby!

Second scenario:

A person is approached by a person in the street selling a rolex selling the very same model of the chinese watch that looks and feels and works even better than a very rolex (maybe it is the guy that was fooled by the merchant in the first scenario.. whom instead of going to the police and make the things right for himself, tries to sell someone the fake watch to pass along the expense instead of having the guts to understand that the fact that he got a fake watch does not entitle him to fdo the same to someone else to make that other person pay for his mistake... or not.. maybe is just some plane regular criminal making his living, anyway, this guy approach that person and advertises his watch as a rolex), and the person pays for the rolex price for a chinese counterfeit watch...

was that wise from the customer? perhaps not.. but the question is... is it more legal, or morally correct for the seller on the street to do this than for the one in the store? Of course the answer is no...

say the two are taking to the court. if ANY member of the jury was not capable of sewing that this is a plain and simple crime.. i would question tue moral and ethics of that member of the jury... the fact that the person bought the watch in the street has nothing to do with the fact that selling a roles that is not a roles is dead wrong.

Now, the difference is that his is a dead guy and a dead mine? well same goes to a Picasso... if i get someone that can fake a Picasso, or i get a picture "somewhere" that is not signed as a Picasso but is remarkably equal to any Picasso on any of his ages, and just because i think it is a picasso i sign it with picasso signature and sell it as one, at the price of an original... that is counterfeit. it's illegal, its deceiving and its a crime. again i think anyone not capable of seeing this needs to check his moral grounding.

What is the use of a picasso other than seeing it and knowing that you have one? If that person is goig to put the picasso in a vault and never use it.. does that give me the right of faking a picasso and make that collector pay the price?

Shame on him for not knowing the difference? for God sake! really? that person not kowign enough gives us the reason to screw him bad and rob him? wooow, that's surrealistic, it's almost like something i would expect only to hear only in a correctional hallway. My mom would have given me some good spaking if i dared to say such thing when i was growing up...

Same if I sell an iwasaki to someone that will only keep it as a heirloom and not use it.. does that give me the right of selling a fake Iwasaki?

1. the stone performance excells? awesome. describe that and your buyer will decide what he wants to pay.
2. you think the stone is this mine for that other? good! tell you buyer you think it's that way but you have no proof.. he will decide how much he wants to pay.
3. will my buyer use the stone or just keep the stone unused as a museum piece or exhibition? or lap the stamps and use it and verify it's good? Not Of My Business!!!!!
4. If i buy a stone with the right stmps and a box, when i sell it i have all the rigths to sell it as what I purchased. so If i was told it is a maruka, and for me it perfoms as a Maruka, and has a stamp that was there when i bough it, the sure i can sell it as a maruka and say it is a great stone and if the stap is gone i can give pictures and my concience is OK.. BUT if i bought it and later on learned that the seller faked the stamps and i bough a stone that is not such.. it would be immoral to selling it as a maruka knowing what now i know...
5. Ignorance of my customer does not give me the right of take advantage to deceive him. cause he will remain ignorant and i will become a dishonest person and a liar.
6. thinking a stone is X or Y does not give you the right of stamping a stone and saying it's an original hatanaka or maruka or anything else. That is as immoral as changing a label or expired medicines and sell to a person as good.

Like I said.. my 2 cents. take it with a grain of salt.

Very well said I believe. I agree.

 

[Pokeystotle]

Great post!

I am not worried about people's feelings as much as I am the truth. Plato says this as much as he says we want to respect our friends but respect the truth more, even if that means we lose our friends in the process.

Making people feel better because they were ripped off and spent a lot of money doesn't help anyone, not even the victim.

well it was about time.
I've been following this thread for a while and honestly the last few coments above make a lot of sense in my book.

Alex, thank you for speaking your mind!

I've been a member of the whetshaving comunity for @7 years now....restoring razors...collecting razors...buying and testing stones to build a small house untill now... i dont frequently like to speak up but hear me out, i think what i'm about to say may prove usefull for many initiates in whetshaving and whetstone collecting.

It's comon sense and based on facts.

For a year or two there has been an explosion of freshly stmped Maruici, Maruka and a few other well selling stones.

You see them pop up on ebay, on forums, many of the guys take pride in owning them and some are great stones.
is there something wrong in wanting to own a great stone...no...well actualy there is.

The whet shaving industry has exploded over the last years and has been a profitable business for many.
The Jnat trade is no exceptions seeing that these stones are regarded as one of nature's finest finishing stones for edged tools. They are highly desired and valued by conoisseurs and initiates alike.

- As Alex pointed out high quality jnats go out of Japan with great hardship....and they dont go cheap.

- Most of the mines are closed for half a century or more.

- The Maruka stamp and the Maruici brand stamp are not in use for tenths of years!

- Not every stone that left Nakayama was stamped Maruka...Nakayama yelded top quality stones but usualy the ones that got the stamps were subjected to testing and grading for tools swords...razors...

- Lots of Nakayama stock as sold to wholesalers in piles of roughly cut chunks of stones...not laped, not stamped...not a finished product...some of these went on to HataHosi and got stamped...some went to other wholesalers getting or not a stamp.

- At the moment there is a high probability there are more stamped Nakayama, Maruka, and Maruici stones outside of Japan then in Japan...you see them on ebay...in online stores ...on groups and forums....they are rare in Japan...but somehow...some sellers manage to have a few freshly stamped stones on stock every week...and even offer price drops and prices most JNAt online stores can't compete with.

- Also i'd like to point out that after the few pics of the Kioto Mining Association Stamp Registry leaked online...these stones started popping up like mushrooms after the rain....i'm sure the person who posted it had good intentions...but that information in the wrong hands can be dangerous.

Why does this happen?
Because we shut up and dont speak our minds. We are affraid our reputation might have to suffer or that people will hate us for starting a drama...but hear me out.

What's worst...letting this go on until it will be hard even for seasoned stone users and dealers to tell if a stone is real or not?

The stamps are getting better with time...soon it will be hard to tell if they are real or fake.

I can totaly get that this might be confusing for some people...Just the other week a guy on FB showed me his huge recently aquired JNAT collection ating on SAD...like 12-15 stones...he spent a wopping sum of $$$ on it and he asked me what i think of them...he was very proud of his collection.

What should i tell that guy...stop whatever you're dooing...it's horribly wrong those stones are not what they were sold to you for?!!! what would he think of me after telling him that...will he belive me they are fake or will he belive the seller he payed a few hard worked grands$$$...he needs to belive those stones are true!

How many of you want to end up like this?...sooner or later he will get educated and know that an Aiwatanii is not a maruka...or maybe he will learn how the Hatahosi stamp looked years ago...i feel sorry for the guy when that happens.

We all live in a crazy world...and if something sounds to good to be true then it probably is.

A stamp is not worth the money unless you are a collector....and you plan to keep that stone in pristine condiion.

A good stone doesnt get better by adding a stamp on it...just the price does....think about it.
Beginers need to understand that there is a learning curve and you might want to kake the scenic rute in your honing journey...like testing stones and learning how to hone properly before jumping head first in the rabbit hole.

Also a little bit of knowledge can save you a lot of cash...there are a lot of great sites and groups where you can get educated before buying.

Also i have heard that some dealesr offer significant price drops to buyers that advertise their stones...and bring more buyers in by reffrence.

Enough said. Think well where you are spending your heard earned money and who you are funding.
For every Fake stamped stone sold there are a few more unstamped on the counter.


Hate me...ban me...whatever...this is what i think of the current JNAT market.
And belive me there are a few very knowledgeble gentlemen dealing stones out there that i respect wholeheartedly....but there are also a lot of people just after the $$$

I call to the people that have something to say to speak and for the people that want to learn to listen.