X stroke vs. Up/Down- I need advice

[raccoonandbrush]

I know that the X stroke is the general way of honing. There are a few things I don't understand about it. They say the reasoning for using the X stroke is because of discrepancies in the hone and razor and so the whole razor gets attention. But if the hone is lapped correctly and the razor is laid completely flat and if the water displacement is good when razor goes across it, couldn't an up/down stroke be used correctly? My razor covers the whole stone. Also, when I strop I use both the up/down and X stroke. It seems like I can keep the blade against the bench strop better using the up/down. It just feels more comfortable to me. I'm assuming I will have the same comfort feeling with the hone. Has anyone ever achieved the proper edge using the up/down method on the hone?

Update: I no longer need answers for the above question, just this one
The overwhelming information I've read suggest the X stroke is the way to go. I have no problem doing what is best, I just want to understand it better. But my one question that still remains about the X stroke is the amount of time the blade spends on the stone. With the up/down stroke, the whole blade is always on the stone. But with the X stroke, the heel leaves the stone half way but the toe stays on all the time. How does the heel get sufficient honing if it leaves half way?

 

[superbleu]

If it works for you that is great.

The 3" wide hones are a new thing, back in the days hones weren't wide enough to do an up/down stroke, so they were forced to do an x-stroke.

If both the hone and spine/edge are completely flat then yes the up down stroke will work fine.

The X-stroke does help with razors that are not rail straight.

I like to do a combination of both types of stokes to cover my bases.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

If it works for you that is great.

The 3" wide hones are a new thing, back in the days hones weren't wide enough to do an up/down stroke, so they were forced to do an x-stroke.

If both the hone and spine/edge are completely flat then yes the up down stroke will work fine.

The X-stroke does help with razors that are not rail straight.

I like to do a combination of both types of stokes to cover my bases.

I haven't tried honing at all yet. I just wanted to get input before I started. Thanks for the input!

 

[danjared]

A razor with an edge that is completely straight (tip and heel included) and without any warps is surprisingly uncommon. And in my opinion, they're less fun to use than smiling razors

 

[raccoonandbrush]

A razor with an edge that is completely straight (tip and heel included) and without any warps is surprisingly uncommon. And in my opinion, they're less fun to use than smiling razors

With my razor, when I lay it flat, it looks like it's completely flat. I don't know what it would look like if I looked at it under a microscope. It might still be flat, or it might be a little warped. The thing is that I feel more comfortable going up/down rather than the X stroke. But don't get me wrong, if doing the X stroke gives it a better edge I will learn to get used to it.

 

[JeffE]

I know that the X stroke is the general way of honing. There are a few things I don't understand about it. They say the reasoning for using the X stroke is because of discrepancies in the hone and razor and so the whole razor gets attention. But if the hone is lapped correctly and the razor is laid completely flat and if the water displacement is good when razor goes across it, couldn't an up/down stroke be used correctly? My razor covers the whole stone. Also, when I strop I use both the up/down and X stroke. It seems like I can keep the blade against the bench strop better using the up/down. It just feels more comfortable to me. I'm assuming I will have the same comfort feeling with the hone. Has anyone ever achieved the proper edge using the up/down method on the hone?

It's not just whether the razor fits on the stone.

The X stroke pattern actually gives the blade a slightly sharper edge, because passing the blade at an angle to the hone leaves tiny, angled serrations or micro-teeth in the edge of the blade. Although I've not verified this personally, I understand that honing the razor straight on the stone does not leave the same or as many of these small serrations.

Of course, if the serrations are too large or too deep, that does not make for a comfortable shave either. So what you're looking for here is a happy medium.

And that's why stropping helps too. As I understand the process, the act of stropping actually smooths out and even removes some of these micro-serrations in the edge of the blade. That's good up to a point, and then it only makes the blade duller, as the tiny serrations are where the blade is the sharpest for cutting whiskers.

Try an X pattern with your next razor -- it's not hard once you get the hang of it.

 

[azmark]

I agree that X pattern has better results.

I hope I explain myself well:

When you hone you are removing metal and removing the scratch pattern from the stone before and attempting to keep a smooth edge. Imagine if you're raking small rocks; you remove or pick up with each pass but you always have some left behind if you follow the same pattern of back and forth. Now if you move the rake you pick up a lot more with less strokes when you pass at an angle.

Using back and forth motion on a 3" hone you're basically going back and forth over the same area, still removing steal but not removing the previous scratch pattern. With an X pattern you cover the area as a sweeping motion.

If you don't understand come rake up my leaves and you'll see what I mean.

 

[DavyRay]

<snip>
If you don't understand come rake up my leaves and you'll see what I mean.

You really mean rake up your cactus needles?

 

[azmark]

You really mean rake up your cactus needles?

Shhhhhhh......he may fall for it and come do it

 

[raccoonandbrush]

Shhhhhhh......he may fall for it and come do it

Not likely, but nice try though

 

[Walker]

Shhhhhhh......he may fall for it and come do it

 

[SliceOfLife]

This isn't a perfect world. There really is no benefit to the entire edge getting the same time on the hone, because there are other variables in abrasion and they aren't constant.

Put it this way. You have a scale and a million people with ten one pound weights each. They will each put a random number of weights on the scale. Your job is to figure out how many weights are on the scale. Learning to hone is learning to read the scale. What you are wondering is "Isn't it better if I know that one of the people put all ten of their weights on the scale". I'd rather read the scale than add up 999,999 numbers of 0-10.


I use arcing strokes on larger hones because the human arm can make that motion more steadily than it can make a straight line. On smaller hones I use an X stroke because it gives linear cuts in the steel and allows me to hone the entire edge each pass.

 

[Chimensch]

My feeling, based on no science but only experience, is that everything to do with a straight razor, from honing, to stropping and shaving, is more effective if done at an angle other than 90&#176; to the edge. A sliding stroke on your face, like the sliding stroke when cutting a tomato, is really just the extension of the X-stroke concept. In my mind, the X-stroke is the key to everything.

 

[DavyRay]

This isn't a perfect world. There really is no benefit to the entire edge getting the same time on the hone, because there are other variables in abrasion and they aren't constant.
<snip>

Nothing is really flat or straight or square. It all depends on how well you can measure it. There is always some error. You may as well plan to deal with it, however large or small the variance is.

I am starting to use the rolling X stroke more, as I realize that my smiling razors need it. Many vintage razors have a slight bend to them. That does not hurt the shave, only makes the honing more of a challenge.

 

[JeffE]

Update: I no longer need answers for the above question, just this one
The overwhelming information I've read suggest the X stroke is the way to go. I have no problem doing what is best, I just want to understand it better. But my one question that still remains about the X stroke is the amount of time the blade spends on the stone. With the up/down stroke, the whole blade is always on the stone. But with the X stroke, the heel leaves the stone half way but the toe stays on all the time. How does the heel get sufficient honing if it leaves half way?

I agree with the point that you're making -- it seems counterintuitive that an X stroke would hone the heel and toe as well as the middle of the blade, given that the heel and toe don't spend as much time on the stone as the middle. But for some unknown reason, it doesn't work out that way. In fact, it seems to me that the heel and toe actually end up much sharper using an X stroke than if you try to sharpen using a straight or 90 degree stroke. Just try it and you will see -- it does work.

 

[natchez]

Putting marker on the edge of the blade, at the suggestion of another member here, taught me that straight is not as effective as either arcing, like Ian suggested, x-strokes, rolling x, or even doing circles. The marker was more evenly removed when the razor was honed at some sort of an angle.

IMHO, different blades also seem to require different approaches. I guess nothing is truly flat, not blade nor stone, in most cases.

So, I will pass on the same good advice I got. Take a marker, run it on your bevel and see if the blade is making contact with the hone with your strokes.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

I agree with the point that you're making -- it seems counterintuitive that an X stroke would hone the heel and toe as well as the middle of the blade, given that the heel and toe don't spend as much time on the stone as the middle. But for some unknown reason, it doesn't work out that way. In fact, it seems to me that the heel and toe actually end up much sharper using an X stroke than if you try to sharpen using a straight or 90 degree stroke. Just try it and you will see -- it does work.

I guess I will have to try it out.

 

[huntmol]

Definitely always use an X-stroke when honing, even on a 4-inch wide stone

The overwhelming information I've read suggest the X stroke is the way to go. I have no problem doing what is best, I just want to understand it better. But my one question that still remains about the X stroke is the amount of time the blade spends on the stone. With the up/down stroke, the whole blade is always on the stone. But with the X stroke, the heel leaves the stone half way but the toe stays on all the time. How does the heel get sufficient honing if it leaves half way?

The explanation that I really like is that when shaving, the use of the edge decreases from toe to heel. In other words, you more often use the front part of the razor. This means that the part towards the toe actually needs a bit more honing, which is why the X-stroke works so perfectly. It sharpens the whole edge exactly how much it needs to be sharpened.

(this explanation of course only works on barber's hones / finishing ones when refreshing the edge of a previously honed razor)

Just try it and you will see -- it does work.

This is actually the best answer there is. It doesn't sound like it works, but try it out! You'll find out that the X-stroke works incredibly well.

 

[SliceOfLife]

Putting marker on the edge of the blade, at the suggestion of another member here, taught me that straight is not as effective as either arcing, like Ian suggested, x-strokes, rolling x, or even doing circles. The marker was more evenly removed when the razor was honed at some sort of an angle.

Think of it as jiggling a key to get it to fit a lock rather than just pushing it in with more force.

 

[raccoonandbrush]

Definitely always use an X-stroke when honing, even on a 4-inch wide stone


The explanation that I really like is that when shaving, the use of the edge decreases from toe to heel. In other words, you more often use the front part of the razor. This means that the part towards the toe actually needs a bit more honing, which is why the X-stroke works so perfectly. It sharpens the whole edge exactly how much it needs to be sharpened.

(this explanation of course only works on barber's hones / finishing ones when refreshing the edge of a previously honed razor)


This is actually the best answer there is. It doesn't sound like it works, but try it out! You'll find out that the X-stroke works incredibly well.

I hope I do.