Another bevel setting question

[Blade_Runner37C]

I see alot of people talking about having the whole blade honed from heel to toe? how do you just know it's done? I heard when you don't see a shadow when looking at the edge or some other things I don't know what i'm looking for. I think i would understand better if there were pics under magnification to help me see what people are talking about.

Also watched a guy can't remember his name on youtube except it had The Stallion in his name and he cusses alot. He said the last part of setting the bevel to lift the edge farthest away from the handle up a little where your cutting the opposite side then while honing on the same stroke, do the very opposite. I know I don't explain things very well. Would it help if I took a pic of the bevel to tell me what i've done wrong?

 

[driftwood]

Hey Blade.

Once an edge cuts my arm hair, heel to toe with relative ease I consider the bevel set.

If you very lightly try snd cut sime hair and the edge catches the hair and then pops it with a bit more pressure is a good sensory indication.

If you are new-ish to honing or even setting bevels it gets easier the more and more you practice.

I haven't ventured back into the SR forum since returning snd this is my first post in many years so I'm not sure if you've posted this already but what stone are you using to set levels with and what razor are you trying to set the bevel on?

 

[Koop]

It sounds like "Stallion" (I think he's Anthony IIRC) is describing a rolling stroke.

Maybe you should look at a few of Alex Gilmore's vids (thejapanstone on YT) to see what a proper bevel looks like.

Basically, you're looking for striations from the base of the bevel - the part closest to the spine - to the very apex of the bevel. If both sides show this and edges meet, you have set a bevel.

 

[driftwood]

I think I just saw another of your posts around the same subject.

It takes a while to get bevel setting sorted out, especially if you are restoring vintage that have likely been beat up a bit.

Again not sure what you are trying to hone or how long you been at this, but it will come with patience and perseverance.

The sharpie trick is a good one to use for an unknown edge, so a razor you are restoring. A few light laps will show you where the stone is making contact with the edge, snd mire importantly, where it is not. Uneven hone wear on the shoulders, the old owner using uneven pressure (normally seen at the heel and toe of the edge), or a warped razor can all prove difficult and require adaptation from a standard honing stroke.

 

[Blade_Runner37C]

king 1k and I tried lightly on my Joseph Rogers & son but sending it off so i'm practicing on a krieger china piece of junk. I have someone going to set the Rogers bevel, but there are alot of oldies cheap in my area that are antique that I will want to experiment on.

 

[silverlifter]

I think i would understand better if there were pics under magnification to help me see what people are talking about.

Honing

Introduction to honing

www.badgerandblade.com

 

[Blade_Runner37C]

clicked on the link, looked at the 2 pics and I honestly can't tell any shadows on either pic - the almost set and the set bevel. I guess i just don't get it. they dont look different to me.

 

[Blade_Runner37C]

I hope this helps it's hard to take a great pic on the edge.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Google, (My Second Try at Honing) is a post from a new honer taking an eBay beater to super 12k shaver.

It has excellent micrographs of bevels that should look similar to what you would see with a 60x loupe.

Just make your bevels look like his at each stone in the progression. You will note that he had the most difficulty in fully setting the bevels.

 

[driftwood]

Hey!

So for what it's worth Inever used my naked eye to tell me anything about my edges when I was learning. I eventually got a loupe, and it didn't do much.

Does your beveled edge cut arm hair across the length of the edge? If so, try that and move on. Finish honing the razor, testing on arm hair after every step. You should notice improvement in cutting ability as you move along, if not then you go back a step. This will give you tactile experience in what the hone is doing and practice with your honing stroke.

If the razor you are practicing on is not of a reasonable quality it may be the razor and not you. Since your just practicing why not go grab one or two of those vintage razors that have decent edges and aren't covered in rust and try on those. You'll have to deal with the previous owners issues, BUT at least you'll have a very good chance of working with decent steel. I do question some the quality of those cheaply made straights you can find out there.

Ove got a razor I just restored thst is in need of the full treatment so if I get some time I will try and take some photos of the bevel setting process as best I can for you.

 

[GreazyThumbs]

I like to use the sharpie test to determine uniform contact at the bevel when setting the bevel. You can make small adjustments from there using pressure up and down the blade until set. Others have mentioned testing shaving on arm hair. I also like to use the thumbnail test, you can test the edge by dragging lightly on the back of your thumbnail. It is hard to explain, but this area is very sensitive and you can tell if you have any areas of the edge you need to refine. You can also take small slices into a cherry tomato or grape to see how easily you edge will bite into the skin or not. These are all good test for your bevel.

 

[driftwood]

I will second the thumb nail test. After I ran out of arm hair in the early days I used my thumb nail, lol.

 

[Gamma]

You can't tell what the condition of the edge is by looking at the bevel side-view. Can't really tell by looking at it head on either to be honest.
FWIW - the edge is the apex. The bevels make that apex.

Trying to make a good bevel on a junk razor with a 1k king doesn't sound like fun.
I don't know your razor, just going by what I read. The King 1k is soft and it wears fast and that can get in the way.
Learning to hone takes time, and it requires certain conditions to be met.

Sharpie test might help you see where you are and are not hitting the bevel when honing. Learning to see the striations you make and seeing if they are even and continuous is key.
Most people aren't using enough pressure or too much pressure. Honing requires friction, pressure/force makes friction. But too much pressure flexes the blade and you won't hit the apex of the edge.

The main thing is to really understand what the process really is. Learn the geometry. Learn to see the geometry in your mind's eye and learn feel the edge progress. If you don't understand the matrix of the process, you won't grasp the fundamentals. It's not simply rub blade on rock and go. There's more to it than that.

There are no short cuts here, no magic bullets and no fool-proof recipes beyond - Set the bevel, refine the bevel, strop, shave, repeat. Anyone making more of it than that is probably on an ego trip.
Microscopes and self-promotion stories aren't needed. There are many good bevel setting videos out there. It's possible that the one you sorta remember isn't one of them. Or maybe what you sorta remember doesn't apply.

In a photo above - It looks like you (or someone else) has been pressing on the spine in the middle, which isn't a good way to do things.
The edge has to be torqued toward the stone. We want to hone the edge, not kill the spine.

You can get a $10 8x photo loupe to help you see new striations laid over old ones, and how well the stone is abrading the sharpie marks. You really don't need more than that to hone.

I learned to hone with a 4x loupe, still use it today. Higher magnification has a tendency to confuse people more than it helps them sort things out.
I don't get the 'looking for shadows" thing. No need to look for shadows. Looking at a photo of the edge isn't a good teaching tool. You can't tell edge condition simply by looking at it. Some blades look great but shave terribly.

The edge needs to cut. So try cutting arm hair to see if you're getting anywhere.
You want to be able to shave with a bevel-set edge. Won't be a great shave but it should cut whiskers well enough to shave.

Not understanding what the geometry and process really are all about are the biggest hurdles I see haunting new users.
Next biggest thing is confusion. Lotta 'info' out there, not all of it is good.

Flat stones matter.
X strokes matter.
Pressure is required.
Paying attention is important.
Understanding the geometry is critically important.
Practice is mandatory
Failure is inevitable.
Success only comes with perseverance and experience.

Its a very simple process that takes a decent amount of skill to become consistently good at.
Focus on one razor and one edge and work at it until you can get it to cut hair then continue to work at it until it cuts better.
Repeat.

 

[driftwood]

Ok here is my attempt at showing you the sharpie test.

Start by getting both sides of the edge fully coated in Sharpie ink.

For me know, as most of my bevel sets are on restores I take a few laps and check. At this point I'm just looking to see where the ink has been removed and where it is still in place. What this tells me is where the hone is and is not making contact. So after a few light laps this is what I was looking at.

(I was using slurry hence the residue on the blade, sorry).

So notice the toe and heel of the edge, the ink has not been removed. So in those few laps the hone did nothing to these areas. So back to the hones you go, or I go in this case. So I did about 15 more laps and this is what we are looking at.

So the toe is starting to have the ink removed, but we still see the heel is not. I also note the the middle of the edge is having metal removed. So I know the if I want to set this bevel I'll need to do rolling X strokes to hit the heel and toe.

So if I was going to continue my homing session I would work with rolling X strokes for a bit, testing the heel and toe on arm hairs as I went. I would also reapply the ink periodically just to note any changes. I'm not really concerned about the middle of the edge because as I work the heel/toe in my stroke the middle will be getting the hone.

I will also do thumb nail tests (wet your thumb nail and very lightly, no more than the weight of the razor) focusing the tests on the heel and toe. If the edge slides across my nail I know the bevel isn't even close. If it feels like I'm getting resistance as I draw it across the nail I know it's close or even done. At that point I'll reapply ink one more time, do enough strokes to remove the ink and do an arm hair test across the length of the blade. If it cuts I move on, if it fails, I go back onto the bevel setter.

Let me know if that helps or if you have other questions.

 

[Blade_Runner37C]

Ok after soaking in everything everyone has said like a sponge. I have one last question. while setting your bevel, once you've done everything you need to do to set the bevel, do you have to keep doing that with the higher grit stones or can you work them just running them from heel to toe?

Basically once the bevel is set correctly then is it just back to business because things are the way they should be. like if someone was going to finish and strop a blade they got from someone who set the bevel, can they just run it on their finisher like you would expect?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Not sure what it is you are asking. What do you mean by? “Once you've done everything you need to do to set the bevel, do you have to keep doing that with the higher grit stones or can you work them just running them from heel to toe?”

A bevel is set when you have flattened the bevel from heel to toe, from the back of the bevel to the edge, at the correct bevel angle and both bevels are meeting fully from heel to toe.

Bevel setting is grinding.

Once the bevels are flat and meeting, then the rest is just polishing, removing all the deep bevel setting stria with a finer stone from heel to toe, from the back of the bevel to the edge to make smaller stria that make smaller microchips at the edge and make the edge straighter.

In theory it is simple, but in reality, razors have all manner of issues, and if a razor has been abused there are more issues to contend with. So, you must hone the razor as it needs to be hone, what ever it takes to make the bevels flat and meeting and then polish the flat bevels to refine the edge.

Sometimes that requires some edge repair, different strokes, different pressure and some gymnastics to fully polish the flat, set bevel. Very few razors are perfectly flat and evenly ground, so you must allow for that when honing.

No, you cant just do straight strokes and call it good.

Look at the razor above. Notice where the ink has not been removed, half of that razor is not fully honed, half of the razor is not fully contacting the stone and the heel is completely off the stone, because the spine was ground at an angle, curved and is likely much thicker over the heel than the rest of the spine. Note how it curves away from the Red line,

Also, the heavy wear on the spine and how the bevel width tapers from a wide bevel at the toe to nothing at the heel. The heavy spine wear is from past honers adding more pressure trying to force the bevel on to the stone causing even more geometry problems for future honers.

If you hone on the curved part of the spine, it will lift the heel off the stone and put more pressure on the toe, grinding the toe at the spine and bevel.

A quick heel correction will move the heel about a ½ inch away from the curved spine, (the Blue line) and allow the razor to sit flat-er on the stone, but the wonky past honing have altered the thickness of the spine and will also need to be addressed, with gymnastics, pressure and different strokes.

So, back to your question, you have to hone the razor as it needs to be honed, you cannot put steel back on or straighten steel. Bevel setting is just setting the foundation.

 

[Christian1212]

I think with what you know now, it is just about getting your hands dirty and busy. After bevel set different stones and points in the progress will take a different amount of time. Will most likely figure out a lot of it as you go.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Yup, a lot of new honer’s problem is information paralysis. Too much information and letting perfect be the enemy of good.

We see this all the time with new guys trying to buy the “Perfect” stones or progression or best razor.

The best tools you will have are a colored Sharpie and 60x magnification, here again a $15 lighted 60x Carson MicroBrite are all you need. You do not need high dollar magnification, but the more you can see the more you understand what is happening at the bevel and edge.

Those folks that tell you all YOU need is 10X, already know how to hone, you need as much as you need.

Ink the bevels and see where ink is coming off, understand why it is or is not coming off.

Ink the bevels for each stroke, if that is what it takes. Ink is cheap and colored ink can easily be seen with the naked eye.

If ink is not coming off, the bevel is not on the stone, stop and find out why. Doing more of the same or adding more pressure is not the answer.

 

[Blade_Runner37C]

will the edge be the same size all across the blade or if it's smaller on the heel and moves up thicker in the middle as long as the ink is coming off ok?

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

The bevel should be about the same width from heel to toe. If the bevel is narrower at the heel, it can be an indicator that you may have another issue and the razor is not fully sitting on the stone.

Post a photo of the razor bevels on both sides.