Why isn't Sharpest Always Best?

[BigJ]

Great discussion!

My take, for what it is worth:
1. My skin, beard, etc, are different, so what works for me may not work for you and vice versa.
2. Sharpness depends on whether you are talking about ‘out of the wrapper’ or after a few shaves.
3. Comfort, smoothness and longevity are as/more important to me than sharpness on shave #1.

YMMV is the rule, especially for blades.

 

[JoWolf]

What make a blade smooth?

Technique. The dullest or sharpest blades are as smooth as your Technique.

Just lack of jagged things?

The apex’s of all blades are visibly jagged under magnification.

Why can't the Sharpest be smooth?

Back to question #1

If you are cutting a piece of rope with a choice of a well used blade or a freshly honed blade. My guess would be that you might reach for the freshly honed knife. You would be expecting a smooth cut with less effort using a sharper knife. The job would be quicker and smoother. How would the laws of physics be different for a razor blade?

My shave is an ATG Single Pass Shave. I need the sharpest smoothest blade possible. I single use a Feather blade.

My early attempts in using Feather’s. The blade felt harsh, jagged, sharp and uncomfortable. After a year or so on a reattempt the blade felt marvellously smooth and sharp. IMHO my technique caught up to the blade’s sharpness.

The biggest part of Technique is LIGHT TOUCH or pressure to skin. When you think you are light, back off a little more. A sharp blade will have no difficulty cutting through the work load or whiskers. Lighten up you do not have to press the blade into the skin to make it work. Your biggest challenge to wielding a sharp blade. Close to and above the skin.

Your complaint of harshness is what a sharp blade feels like when you are pushing it into your skin. Dull blades feel worse.

A skin cut with a sharp blade is hardly felt. A skin cut with a dull knife is more painful because the rougher more jagged worn edge does more Tearing than a sharper smoother blade.

My advice use the sharpest blade possible in your shaves. As your technique improves use sharper blades. I have found the sharpest blades to be the smoothest and most comfortable to use.

I am trying to figure out if feather blades. Ot being best is always dontonuser error. I .getting better and better results. My goal is use once and dispose so longevity isn't an issue and I want a blade that does its best on the first shave.

 

[steveclarkus]

The thing that irritates my skin is always shaving against the grain. In my personal experience, the sharper the blade, the less it digs into my skin on the ATG pass(es). So I always end up back to Feathers simply because I cannot find a sharper blade.

It seems that you are a female and if so, you may be shaving a lot more area (legs) than a male typically does per shaving session. Perhaps a Feather is deteriorating before the end of one shave? If so, a more durable blade may well serve better.

Just my personal experience but Gillette 7 O'clock green blades are very sharp and perhaps more durable than Feathers and so may serve you better. ?? Best of luck going forward!

When I used a DE, I much preferred the Personna Blue over the Feather. It was more comfortable and just as effective. Now that I use straight razors I prefer the sharpest edge which can be polished to a great level of comfort at the same time. In shavettes, I prefer the Derby over the Feather.

 

[slimshavy]

What make a blade smooth? Just lack of jagged things? Why can't the Sharpest be smooth?

I am trying to figure out if feather blades. Ot being best is always dontonuser error. I .getting better and better results. My goal is use once and dispose so longevity isn't an issue and I want a blade that does its best on the first shave.

Your goal is to use once, even if a blade would give you a second shave just like the first? I've come across many blades whose first shave is their best, I just tend to move on because my bottom line is three good shaves.
Having said that, I'd strongly recommend LOI Titanium blades, which give a very good first shave but burn themselves out on thicker hair in subsequent shaves. Same with (Personna) Crystal; very forgiving and smooth on a first shave. Voskhod is very smooth on first shave and plenty sharp. All of these are inexpensive; LOI is the best bargain in wet shaving.

 

[Oliviamaynard]

Your goal is to use once, even if a blade would give you a second shave just like the first? I've come across many blades whose first shave is their best, I just tend to move on because my bottom line is three good shaves.
Having said that, I'd strongly recommend LOI Titanium blades, which give a very good first shave but burn themselves out on thicker hair in subsequent shaves. Same with (Personna) Crystal; very forgiving and smooth on a first shave. Voskhod is very smooth on first shave and plenty sharp. All of these are inexpensive; LOI is the best bargain in wet shaving.

Yes I would like to use one then dispose. The reason is both consistency and germs. I am not shaving face.

 

[slimshavy]

Yes I would like to use one then dispose. The reason is both consistency and germs. I am not shaving face.

Perfect, then. Any of those will serve you well.
If you go with Voskhod, send them to me when you've used them -- I'll swish with some alcohol and have a few more good shaves

 

[Lane101]

I am looking to see if i.can find a blade better than my Feather. I am getting better with it, but still kinda tok sharp. Is tok sharp a thing or is that just I am not skilled enough? How isn't Sharpest best?

Hi Olivia, Believe a key element of blade design is determining the right trade-off between sharpness and longevity. Have seen microscope images of various blades and it appears the Feathers achieve their sharpness with one of the narrowest blade hone angles versus others. Per a recent MIT study blades wear down via micro-chipping of the edge (not the gradual erosion that was expected) from the impact of cutting hair. As a result it's likely that the more narrowly honed blade is much more susceptible to microchip erosion (easier to chip thinner steel) than a less sharp blade with a wider angle hone. This can explain why many only get a couple of shaves from a Feather blade versus others.

Regarding what is better it's likely a YMMV question that includes beard/hair type, technique, razor aggressiveness and shaving cream/soap characteristics. Can only answer that for me personally where a middle of the road Astra or Dorco (new production from Vietnam) seems to work best versus my less sharp Derby's. With 5-6 shaves from the Astras and 8-10 from the Dorcos I don't have any need to go sharper.

From others experience (and microscope analysis) Feather is about as sharp as you can get. Suggest you try on of the middle of the road blades to see if something with a less aggressive/longer life hone works better for you. I started at the other end of the spectrum with Derby's, and while I do get 4-5 good shaves from them, eventually added the Astras and Dorcos to my rotation with great results.

P.S. Are your issues with Feather sharpness occurring with a fresh blade or after the blade has been used a bit? If the later it could be a result of the rapid microchipping wear on the blade versus initial sharpness. Since you have more real estate to shave, since you're not shaving your face, I'm wondering if wear and tear impacts your Feathers performance significantly over the course of a single shave?

 

[Oliviamaynard]

Hi Olivia, Believe a key element of blade design is determining the right trade-off between sharpness and longevity. Have seen microscope images of various blades and it appears the Feathers achieve their sharpness with one of the narrowest blade hone angles versus others. Per a recent MIT study blades wear down via micro-chipping of the edge (not the gradual erosion that was expected) from the impact of cutting hair. As a result it's likely that the more narrowly honed blade is much more susceptible to microchip erosion (easier to chip thinner steel) than a less sharp blade with a wider angle hone. This can explain why many only get a couple of shaves from a Feather blade versus others.

Regarding what is better it's likely a YMMV question that includes beard/hair type, technique, razor aggressiveness and shaving cream/soap characteristics. Can only answer that for me personally where a middle of the road Astra or Dorco (new production from Vietnam) seems to work best versus my less sharp Derby's. With 5-6 shaves from the Astras and 8-10 from the Dorcos I don't have any need to go sharper.

From others experience (and microscope analysis) Feather is about as sharp as you can get. Suggest you try on of the middle of the road blades to see if something with a less aggressive/longer life hone works better for you. I started at the other end of the spectrum with Derby's, and while I do get 4-5 good shaves from them, eventually added the Astras and Dorcos to my rotation with great results.

P.S. Are your issues with Feather sharpness occurring with a fresh blade or after the blade has been used a bit? If the later it could be a result of the rapid microchipping wear on the blade versus initial sharpness. Since you have more real estate to shave, since you're not shaving your face, I'm wondering if wear and tear impacts your Feathers performance significantly over the course of a single shave?

My issue is with the very first use. It's sharp!

 

[catchacoolbreeze]

I didn't read responses so you may have an answer already. But if you Google feather blade microscope or de blade microscope - you will see why some blades feel harsher than others.

 

[Lane101]

My issue is with the very first use. It's sharp!

Hi Olivia, Just read through the entire thread. Since you want to use blades on a one and done basis just try some of the many blades recommended in all the above posts that have middle of the road sharpness. Based on the brands I've direct experience with the Dorco ST300/301s (new production) or Astra SPs could be a good alternative to the Feathers that you find too sharp on the first shave. Since YMMV you won't know for sure what works best for you until you try them.

P.S. Regarding smoothness, one factor contributing to this is a teflon coating on the blade. After hairs are cut the teflon helps the cut hair slide over the bevel of the blade as it is cut. Less friction so smoother glide. Note that since this teflon also covers the cutting edge it can sometimes make the initial shave with a blade a little rougher for some of us. Interesting microscope images of some blades including Feathers here:

A Comparison of Several Manufactured Blades

Vintage NOS Gillette blue blade (E3, manufactured third quarter of 1959) Vintage NOS Gillette blue blade (E3, manufactured third quarter of 1959) Kai/Miltex disposable scalpel blade Kai/Miltex disp…

scienceofsharp.com

 

[Jack Goossen]

The thing that irritates my skin is always shaving against the grain. In my personal experience, the sharper the blade, the less it digs into my skin on the ATG pass(es). So I always end up back to Feathers simply because I cannot find a sharper blade.

It seems that you are a female and if so, you may be shaving a lot more area (legs) than a male typically does per shaving session. Perhaps a Feather is deteriorating before the end of one shave? If so, a more durable blade may well serve better.

Just my personal experience but Gillette 7 O'clock green blades are very sharp and perhaps more durable than Feathers and so may serve you better. ?? Best of luck going forward!

I do both beard and head shaves.
You are probably right, because blades seem to deteriorate faster when head shaving.
Which seems logical, since a head has much more hair than a beard.

 

[Oliviamaynard]

Hi Olivia, Just read through the entire thread. Since you want to use blades on a one and done basis just try some of the many blades recommended in all the above posts that have middle of the road sharpness. Based on the brands I've direct experience with the Dorco ST300/301s (new production) or Astra SPs could be a good alternative to the Feathers that you find too sharp on the first shave. Since YMMV you won't know for sure what works best for you until you try them.

P.S. Regarding smoothness, one factor contributing to this is a teflon coating on the blade. After hairs are cut the teflon helps the cut hair slide over the bevel of the blade as it is cut. Less friction so smoother glide. Note that since this teflon also covers the cutting edge it can sometimes make the initial shave with a blade a little rougher for some of us. Interesting microscope images of some blades including Feathers here:

A Comparison of Several Manufactured Blades

Vintage NOS Gillette blue blade (E3, manufactured third quarter of 1959) Vintage NOS Gillette blue blade (E3, manufactured third quarter of 1959) Kai/Miltex disposable scalpel blade Kai/Miltex disp…

scienceofsharp.com

Thank you. I am going through all the recommendations

 

[Andris83]

Technique. The dullest or sharpest blades are as smooth as your Technique.

The apex’s of all blades are visibly jagged under magnification.

Back to question #1

If you are cutting a piece of rope with a choice of a well used blade or a freshly honed blade. My guess would be that you might reach for the freshly honed knife. You would be expecting a smooth cut with less effort using a sharper knife. The job would be quicker and smoother. How would the laws of physics be different for a razor blade?

My shave is an ATG Single Pass Shave. I need the sharpest smoothest blade possible. I single use a Feather blade.

My early attempts in using Feather’s. The blade felt harsh, jagged, sharp and uncomfortable. After a year or so on a reattempt the blade felt marvellously smooth and sharp. IMHO my technique caught up to the blade’s sharpness.

The biggest part of Technique is LIGHT TOUCH or pressure to skin. When you think you are light, back off a little more. A sharp blade will have no difficulty cutting through the work load or whiskers. Lighten up you do not have to press the blade into the skin to make it work. Your biggest challenge to wielding a sharp blade. Close to and above the skin.

Your complaint of harshness is what a sharp blade feels like when you are pushing it into your skin. Dull blades feel worse.

A skin cut with a sharp blade is hardly felt. A skin cut with a dull knife is more painful because the rougher more jagged worn edge does more Tearing than a sharper smoother blade.

My advice use the sharpest blade possible in your shaves. As your technique improves use sharper blades. I have found the sharpest blades to be the smoothest and most comfortable to use.

I agree, technique is important and a dull blade cannot be comfortable. But, your explanation only works for 0 or - exposure razors imo. How about a + blade exposure razor. The blade will be in contact with your skin no matter how light pressure you use, so "close to and above the skin" is not really an option.

 

[JoWolf]

I agree, technique is important and a dull blade cannot be comfortable. But, your explanation only works for 0 or - exposure razors imo. How about a + blade exposure razor. The blade will be in contact with your skin no matter how light pressure you use, so "close to and above the skin" is not really an option.

Your absolutely right. There is skin contact with every shave method. (at least the ones I used) For the sake of newbie’s and unexperienced DE shavers it is best to think and try to react to no skin contact. I found that my biggest issue learning DE technique was Light Touch. My choice of explanation is trying to emphasize that point to the learners and newbies. It’s a target more than a destination. Thank you for your comment. @Andris83

 

[Andris83]

yesterday I did an evening shave and deviated from my usual routine(as in not doing a morning shave right after shower). everything should have been fine, as I did everything else as I used to (lather, known blade, known razor). In fact I replicated the previous shave that was superb. This time I got around 5 weepers, all this with the 37C with which I have never nicked myself. I'd add preparation and finding what works for you to the top of the list as well. I get the best shaves if I shave every 48h. Any time I try after 36h, something will be off.

p.s.: the blade was a BIC which is very good for me in the 37C usually.

 

[Euro_Lander]

I

I find the Feather a bit too sharp. So I am testing.

Try BIC or Teflon coated blades like Voshkod etc

 

[Oliviamaynard]

Imho as my technique improves and I try sharper blades I do ultimately think the main factor in how good a blade is is sharpness.
Feather, med prep, nacet, wizmet....

That finding non super sharp blades smooth is a sliding scale of technique vs sharp. The less good technique you have the duller blade you need feel smooth and not cut up your skin.

Pressure applied and angle vs sharpness.

 

[APBinNCA]

Imho as my technique improves and I try sharper blades I do ultimately think the main factor in how good a blade is is sharpness.
Feather, med prep, nacet, wizmet....

That finding non super sharp blades smooth is a sliding scale of technique vs sharp. The less good technique you have the duller blade you need feel smooth and not cut up your skin.

Pressure applied and angle vs sharpness.

This one downside of a neutral razor that can not be fixed with a sharper blade, sometimes it goes over the hair and doesn’t grab it in spots. With duller blades, this causes you to go over the same area too much causing irritation. With a tiny amount of blade exposure and a duller blade, you can actually see when it’s pulling instead of cutting and either stop or change your technique to deal with it instead of blindly going over it too many times. For legs, this is perfectly safe, but there are areas where the neural razor is probably best.

 

[Barbarian80]

For me- as my technique improved i found myself tossing blades much earlier than i was while working on technique. I would use a feather 10-15 times and used to wonder how anyone could toss it after the first or second use. Thought they were nuts because the blade was just getting good by the 3rd use. That is not the case for me anymore. I no longer enjoy shaving with a blade that is less sharp from use.

You can try corking a feather blade by passing each side through a wine cork just one time very gently with no pressure. That will certainly get you into the shave #3 neighborhood from the start.

 

[Oliviamaynard]

For me- as my technique improved i found myself tossing blades much earlier than i was while working on technique. I would use a feather 10-15 times and used to wonder how anyone could toss it after the first or second use. Thought they were nuts because the blade was just getting good by the 3rd use. That is not the case for me anymore. I no longer enjoy shaving with a blade that is less sharp from use.

You can try corking a feather blade by passing each side through a wine cork just one time very gently with no pressure. That will certainly get you into the shave #3 neighborhood from the start.

When I first started I hated the first shave of a Feather too and would get little cuts. Now I get the best shave from the first one and no cuts. It had to be technique the whole time.