i think that there is a lot of misunderstanding going on in the the coticule v slate argument and the judging of superiority... interesting thoughts though.
Welsh slate beats my coticule!
- Thread starter msimon
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I have had very limited success with the Welsh slates, all of them stalled at some point before maxing out even the burgundy ones. Some Coticules are better finishers than others and some not practical finishers but still doable under the right circumstances.
The English slates aren't bad, really. I don't like them for razors, but to each his own. In my opinion they leave an edge a bit lacking for shaving with on a razor. My reference is vintage stones + Inigo DT's. The eBay slates I'll leave to others to judge.
The problem is, they aren't great either, in any respect. There is never a time when I say "I should use my DT for this job" or "I should use my Yellow Lake for this job", and believe me, I've tried close to a dozen yellow lakes. If they vary they vary from meh to slightly more meh. I've done less testing of DT's, but most people place their grit below what is necessary for a good shave and the two or three I've tried all agreed with that assessment.
Coticules on the other hand vary quite a lot, and some are a challenge to get a good shave out of. Some you might never get a good shave out of (the rare "not razor quality" ones). Some are easy as could be to get a good shave out of. Some give absolutely incredible shaves.
Given that, sure, some people will have more success with random slates vs coticules, but given my sample size being about 50-60 random slates at this point and probably close to twice that in coticules, I'm comfortable saying that coticules overwhelmingly prove superior on average. There have been a few solid random slates, mind you. But there have been many more that just aren't worth using with the superior options available, and sadly YL's and DT's fell into that camp without exception, for me. They sit on my shelf as museum pieces, for lack of a better term.
The problem is, they aren't great either, in any respect. There is never a time when I say "I should use my DT for this job" or "I should use my Yellow Lake for this job", and believe me, I've tried close to a dozen yellow lakes. If they vary they vary from meh to slightly more meh. I've done less testing of DT's, but most people place their grit below what is necessary for a good shave and the two or three I've tried all agreed with that assessment.
Coticules on the other hand vary quite a lot, and some are a challenge to get a good shave out of. Some you might never get a good shave out of (the rare "not razor quality" ones). Some are easy as could be to get a good shave out of. Some give absolutely incredible shaves.
Given that, sure, some people will have more success with random slates vs coticules, but given my sample size being about 50-60 random slates at this point and probably close to twice that in coticules, I'm comfortable saying that coticules overwhelmingly prove superior on average. There have been a few solid random slates, mind you. But there have been many more that just aren't worth using with the superior options available, and sadly YL's and DT's fell into that camp without exception, for me. They sit on my shelf as museum pieces, for lack of a better term.
Lol. I'd hone more than one razor and one test shave before I traded off my coticules.
Seriously though msimon, might wanna give it a little more time before coming to any solid conclusions. It's amazing what two weeks of testing can do to a first impression. JMO
Agree there. Alot of stones give you a more keen edge than an coticule. People don't use Coticules because they want the sharpest edge.They use them because thier comfort is amazing. I shaved off high grit synthetic stones last night and got a really nice shave. But 99 times out of 100, I'll shave off my coticules. I don't judge a blade by how sharp it is. Although i try to get the kenest edge off whatever stone im using. I wouldn't say one stone was better without shaving off it.
In my opinion, every coticule i own and have owned, beat english slate 
For a coticule student it might be more difficult to get a good edge, the english slates are more easy, because of their slow behavior, and generall fineness.
Even the cheapos from aj (Ebay) are quite good, but not comparable to real honing stones like thuris or coticule.
Greets Sebastian.
For a coticule student it might be more difficult to get a good edge, the english slates are more easy, because of their slow behavior, and generall fineness.
Even the cheapos from aj (Ebay) are quite good, but not comparable to real honing stones like thuris or coticule.
Greets Sebastian.
For me, the slates ended up feeling very much like a CNat. Maybe a bit sharper. I didn't feel compelled to hang onto mine, but they were fine.
Yes...I think FOR ME ANYWAY. I am a beginner too, with a coti in one hand and the Welsh Trio in the other. I have had success and failure from both.
I honed 3 razors (each twice, one actually shave tested twice, the other two never got shave tested the first time)
1a) The coti only (first time using it, the bevel was already set on another stone...I failed at setting the bevel on the coti). Shave test was "smooth" & acceptable but lacked "something". I hit the diamond balsa strop. shave test...pretty good.
1b) Coti finished on Welsh YellowLake (same razor just went back to the coti, slurry and all...second time using it). Shave test was similar to the coti with pasted balsa. Hit the balsa strop and I had a pretty darn good edge for I guy who never touched a coti before and spends hours/days attempting to set a bevel that can cut a tomato.
2a) Coti only. Again failed to set a bevel on the coti used another stone. Did the same thing as I did with the first razor, tested with arm hair and HHT and got questionable results, didn't feel comfortable going all in on a shave.
2b) Coti & ALL three Welsh stones. With a bevel confirmed I hit the coti again but decided to give up and use the progression of Welsh stones (first time). I used them in the same way I had used the coti , slurry dilution and all. finished with a few laps on .10u diamond paste for the final touch. Shave test...AMAZING ...angels singing (in a Welsh accent)
3rd razor, same as razor number 2 a&b only a model more like the razor in #1. Shave test ...Babies Cried all over the world the shave was so bad. Un-usable in every way. I cant explain it.
I am an absolute beginner, the good results I get are appreciated but until I can duplicate them and understand how I got them the scales of luck & skill are tipping far toward luck.
Coticules have a long and storied history of frustrating honers. Most honing methods only ask the user to change stones. Coticules ask the user to change methods and techniques all along the path before they will give up their best results.
I know the poor Englishman has been corrected and has apologised (accepted 
) but this slate is WELSH.
The problem is when people all over the world read this post start making the same assumption. The Principality of Wales is part of the United Kingdom, but is a separate country with it's own government and language. Nobody would refer to Scotland or Northern Ireland as 'England' ?!
It's also very welcoming, full of sheep and slate that is used to roof the world. The weather's awful though :-0
) but this slate is WELSH. The problem is when people all over the world read this post start making the same assumption. The Principality of Wales is part of the United Kingdom, but is a separate country with it's own government and language. Nobody would refer to Scotland or Northern Ireland as 'England' ?!
It's also very welcoming, full of sheep and slate that is used to roof the world. The weather's awful though :-0
- Thread starter
- #31
I know the poor Englishman has been corrected and has apologised (accepted
The problem is when people all over the world read this post start making the same assumption. The Principality of Wales is part of the United Kingdom, but is a separate country with it's own government and language. Nobody would refer to Scotland or Northern Ireland as 'England' ?!
It's also very welcoming, full of sheep and slate that is used to roof the world. The weather's awful though :-0
I am going to PM a mod for the title to be amended, it needs doing.
Update. Used a Purple llyn melynllyn then the so called 15k+ slate which gave a very nice shave, best shave to date. next time I will just finish on the purple and see what that's like. They had nice feedback as well, unlike my inigo jones that felt shockingly to hard and slow.
Dont care anyone says about slate, its good stuff, not the best just good stuff.
I know the poor Englishman has been corrected and has apologised (accepted
The problem is when people all over the world read this post start making the same assumption. The Principality of Wales is part of the United Kingdom, but is a separate country with it's own government and language. Nobody would refer to Scotland or Northern Ireland as 'England' ?!
It's also very welcoming, full of sheep and slate that is used to roof the world. The weather's awful though :-0
I'm so glad somebody said this. England is not Wales. I'm Australian but it's common knowledge. I was cringing for the Welsh throughout this thread. Had me a great surf in Wales once. Also own a very nice purple Welsh slate finisher.
I really want to try one of these non razor quality cotis. My big "La Grise" is as smooth and "unsharp" as any I have, including half a dozen slurry stones & base. And I still get decent shaves off the LG, especially if it's glassed and won't slurry.
Are these non razor cotis just super soft or what's up?
Are these non razor cotis just super soft or what's up?
It's always the stone's fault.
I had one once. Super hard and felt coarse but it was really slow. Honing on it felt like honing on gravel. I never got an edge I liked from it. But it was the second coti I ever owned. So maybe I would have been able to do something with it now. No way to know. Other than that I've been able to get shaving edges from every coti I've tried.
I do have favourites though I finish better on some than others.
I've had two I consider non-razor coti's. Both were 10x2" vintage stones. One glued, one natural.
They were soft, but no softer than other coti's I've had which did not have this problem.
I inspected the slurry of my last one under the scope. It had large particles (20+ microns) that simply aren't present in other coticules. In a side by side of that coti's slurry and any other coti's slurry from my collection, the difference was hugely evident.
These particles certainly seemed abrasive, as the stones were fast enough to relatively easily bevel on, and felt very gritty when used with any amount of pressure. It's possible that they were excessively large garnets. It could also have been some kind of impurity in the stone.
Given that both these stones were oversized vintage stones, I tend to suspect their issues were known to the mine, and they were likely cut in that size for purposes other than razors, and were in fact -at the time- sold as a grade of coticule that was never meant for razors... but that is only a suspicion of mine. That said, that does not mean all larger vintage coti's will be bad. I've got an absolutely incredible 10x2" vintage LV, and have had a half dozen or more other coti's in similar sizes pass through my hands that worked just fine. It's simply that the only Vintage coticules I've found of this sort were these two, and both happened to be large coticules. Given the number of small coticules I've used, it's very unlikely that this quality of rock was commonly cut into "razor" sizes since I've yet to encounter one.
That said, I've encountered a handful of Coticules that are significantly more difficult to hone on than typical, but not nearly to the extent of those two stones. These are predominantly modern coticules from the less common/popular veins (The worst offender is probably a LNV I own), but there are a small number of vintage examples I've encountered as well. These are not "not razor quality", but rather they are a bit more difficult to max out a razor on, and likely are part of the reason why some users find coticules difficult to use (frankly, most coticules are very easy to use to me).
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Very interesting, we have so little info about coticules from ages past. I don't think.people expected us to be so in to it 100 years later. All these mines and veins we have no names for but there probably was at one point. They normally went by the grading system though I would guess. Maybe they had stones besides kosher meant for butchers or knife only users, some lower grade like our current "Standard".
Although I would like to know how they distinguished between choice and extra choice etc. I love how coticules run the whole spectrum from barely shaving to some that are glassy and more fine than an escher(seemingly).
Although I would like to know how they distinguished between choice and extra choice etc. I love how coticules run the whole spectrum from barely shaving to some that are glassy and more fine than an escher(seemingly).
- Thread starter
- #38
I wold like to say.
I now have a new bout 8 selected for razors in standard grade and its an incredibly smooth feeling stone, and gave sticky edge without much effort or concentrating on proper slurry dilution (just testing). Much more finer stone then the last which is indicated in the polish.
And quite fast cutting with thick slurry.
Very pleased with this stone, with a little practice ,I reckon I can grab every last performance out of the stone.
I now have a new bout 8 selected for razors in standard grade and its an incredibly smooth feeling stone, and gave sticky edge without much effort or concentrating on proper slurry dilution (just testing). Much more finer stone then the last which is indicated in the polish.
And quite fast cutting with thick slurry.
Very pleased with this stone, with a little practice ,I reckon I can grab every last performance out of the stone.
This little gem right here I would never claim to anyone to be a coticule suitable for finishing a razor. Possible, but only with extreme patience and a tolerance for less than crazy keen edges. On the other hand, this is a stone that I will never give up because on slurry it will deliver speed that is incredible! Fresh 1200 DMT diamond speed is well within this stones capability, but the edge it leaves is far finer than the DMT. I use it as my favorite bevel setter.
