Wade and Butcher stone progression

[H Brad Boonshaft]

Be careful with soap, some synthetics binders do not react well with soap.

The 6k should have a more refined bevel and edge. Lots of deep 1k stria going all the way to the edge, ending in a chip.

After bevel setting, (you are absolutely sure the bevel is fully set from heel to toe), the second most important stone is the transition stone. Where you go from grinding the bevels flat and meeting to polishing the bevels and straightening the edge.

The goal of the transition stone, (whatever the next stone after bevel setting is), is to polish out ALL the deep bevel setting stria, all of it.

Deep stria end in a chip at the edge, if you do not remove all the deep stria, or at least all the deep stria that reach the edge, it will fight you all the way to the finish. You may even get a shaving edge, but it will be weak and may start to chip or crumble after stropping.

Try a little slurry on the 6k to make it more aggressive and use some circles to remove the deep stria. Finish with X strokes on a clean no slurry stone to bring back the edge and make the stria uniform. Any deep stria should show up under a uniform 6k stria pattern.

There is a recent post on perfecting a 5k bevel, this is exactly what he is talking about.

On the Jnat bevels you can see some of the deep stria on the right-hand side of the bevel. Once you polished away the Kazumi bevel with the Ark the deep stria became visible, they were never removed just masked by the Kazumi bevel.

Stropping on linen between stones will also help to refine the edge, removing any flashing so you are honing to a clean edge.

An Ark edge should be laser straight.

You must get rid of all the deep bevel set stria on the 6k, then build the edge.

Now if the Jnat is aggressive, it should remove all the deep stria with a thick diamond or Tsushima slurry.

I find it easier to take a near mirror bevel to a Jnat or Ark, then there is no question that the Jnat removed all the deep stria.

Once you get a smoking Jnat edge, (test shave), then put an Ark edge over it and see if the shave is improved. If so, reverse the pattern, put a smoking Ark edge on it, test shave, and lay a Jnat edge over it. The shaves will tell you if you are going forwards or back.

Super hard to tell looking at photos which edge will shave better. To me an Jnat and Ark are not better than the other, they are different, but shave better than slates and synthetics.

Both the Jnats look aggressive, it that Diamond slurry?

If so, test by setting a 1k bevel, then removing all the 1k stria with just diamond slurry, work the slurry to thin and finish. You will learn a lot about you Jnats. Then start adding Nagura once you know what the base stone alone is capable of.

You are close, more time on the 6k or the Jnat.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

“Be careful with soap, some synthetics binders do not react well with soap.”

The Sigma Power tolerates soap well. No issues there. I am aware that some stones and binders do not mix well with soap too.

“The 6k should have a more refined bevel and edge. Lots of deep 1k stria going all the way to the edge, ending in a chip.
After bevel setting, (you are absolutely sure the bevel is fully set from heel to toe), the second most important stone is the transition stone. Where you go from grinding the bevels flat and meeting to polishing the bevels and straightening the edge.
The goal of the transition stone, (whatever the next stone after bevel setting is), is to polish out ALL the deep bevel setting stria, all of it.
Deep stria end in a chip at the edge, if you do not remove all the deep stria, or at least all the deep stria that reach the edge, it will fight you all the way to the finish. You may even get a shaving edge, but it will be weak and may start to chip or crumble after stropping.
Try a little slurry on the 6k to make it more aggressive and use some circles to remove the deep stria. Finish with X strokes on a clean no slurry stone to bring back the edge and make the stria uniform. Any deep stria should show up under a uniform 6k stria pattern.”

Next time I think I’m going to do the 6K with slurry then check the edge. I either did something wrong (very possible) or the 6K is not improving the edge (possible). If it is the latter I may not have a good synthetic transition stone.

“There is a recent post on perfecting a 5k bevel, this is exactly what he is talking about.
On the Jnat bevels you can see some of the deep stria on the right-hand side of the bevel. Once you polished away the Kazumi bevel with the Ark the deep stria became visible, they were never removed just masked by the Kazumi bevel.
Stropping on linen between stones will also help to refine the edge, removing any flashing so you are honing to a clean edge.”

It is about time to add some linen. Do you recommend any pastes with the linen or not?

“An Ark edge should be laser straight.
You must get rid of all the deep bevel set stria on the 6k, then build the edge.
Now if the Jnat is aggressive, it should remove all the deep stria with a thick diamond or Tsushima slurry.
I find it easier to take a near mirror bevel to a Jnat or Ark, then there is no question that the Jnat removed all the deep stria.
Once you get a smoking Jnat edge, (test shave), then put an Ark edge over it and see if the shave is improved. If so, reverse the pattern, put a smoking Ark edge on it, test shave, and lay a Jnat edge over it. The shaves will tell you if you are going forwards or back.
Super hard to tell looking at photos which edge will shave better. To me an Jnat and Ark are not better than the other, they are different, but shave better than slates and synthetics.
Both the Jnats look aggressive, it that Diamond slurry?”

I will say this, with the caveat that I only have experience with razors that I have honed, this razor shaved REALLY nice.

The slurry is generated with a very worn Ez-Lap pocket diamond stone. It is worn / fine enough that the stone surface is still very smooth. (It also takes a lot of work for it to get the Nakayama to make slurry.)

“If so, test by setting a 1k bevel, then removing all the 1k stria with just diamond slurry, work the slurry to thin and finish. You will learn a lot about you Jnats. Then start adding Nagura once you know what the base stone alone is capable of.
You are close, more time on the 6k or the Jnat.”

You read my mind, or maybe I read yours. I was wondering if I could skip the transition stone, or at a minimum see how a 1K then JNAT + tomo slurry would do. Depending on those results I may consider looking at mikawa naguras which are pretty cheap. Only the koma is pricey.

Btw, I’m sealing the Nakayama and have some rubber pads glued to it. It sits perfectly flat now.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

You can strop on pasted linen, I occasionally strop on sailcloth, polyester canvas pasted with chrome oxide, but usually flax fire hose to remove any micro burr so that I am honing on clean steel.

Try refreshing your diamond plate, by cleaning with Barkeepers Friend, Oxalic Acid. I have heard of guys using other cleaning powders like Comet or Ajax.

Make a paste of Barkeepers and let it sit on the stone for 10-15 minutes. Oxalic Acid will eat up caked swarf, slurry, and bits of metal between the diamonds, it will also remove rust and stains. Then scrub with a stiff nylon brush and rinse well.

This will bring a diamond plate back to life. I scrub up all my diamond plates every couple of month or so. I have some plates well over 10 years that still cut well.

I prefer a full-size diamond plate over credit card size, so you are flattening at the same time you are making slurry.

If your Jnat will not make diamond slurry, it may be a very hard stone and may be a finisher and not well suited for mid-level polishing.

Going from a 1k to a Jnat to remove 1k slurry and finish is a good test of a Jnat. I prefer to use a Tsushima nagura as a transition stone from synthetic to Jnat finish, but you can use a Botan.

I have a full set’s of Mikawa and only regularly use Tenjyou, and Tomo.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

@H Brad Boonshaft I had some time this morning so I put together a linen strop using some seatbelts I pulled out of a junk car. 3 belts, one with 1um diamond, one with 0.5um cbn, and one with nothing.

After that went to talk to nearby blacksmith and came back all motivated to sharpen something. And it does seem the more I hone, the better my edges are getting.

And…….. I figured out my 6K Sigma Power is really just a 3K. I gave it away to a friend. I love my 1K and 2K Sigma Power. They are awesome stones. I just came to the conclusion their 6K just isn’t 6K. It’s a very nice 3K stone but I have no need for it. What I did need was something in the 4K and 8K range.

Fortuntely the nice thing about Japan is there are lots of JNAT stores. I went down to the local hardware store and picked up these beautiful JNATs. These come from the Naniwa mine of the 4K and 8K strata.

Many may not know this but in Japan it is customary for the seller to lap flat, chamfer the edges, and seal JNATs when they are sold. Also sharpening various everything is a sign of royalty and businessmen will often offer their daughters in marriage to the cool bros who sharpen stuff.

I didn’t feel like breaking out the microscope today. I just wanted some honing zen without any *annoyances*.
Took the Wade and Butcher on the 4K. It didn’t want to take an edge. Annoying. Put it to the side.
Next up was the Parker. Used all different kinds of strokes: 45deg half strokes, 90 deg, short X, circles, reverse circles short X again, regular. Took a REAL nice edge quick. This is a good stone.

Went to the Naniwa 8K. Wade and Butcher got sharper but pulls hair as much as it cuts. ***. I’m done trying to get this razor to work - and I started this thread with this razor. I think it’s just too much deep corrosion.
8K on the Parker. Started with stropping on the linen seatbelts, then jointing, then on the stone with all those different strokes. The edge came out amazing. Smooooothly blew through arm hair. This is a great stone. I wish I would have picked this up earlier. (Thanks to Keith V. Johnson for the 8K stone review video too.)

Quick stop again on the seatbelts, jointing, and onto the Nakayama with Tsushima nagura.

Feedback was real nice with the Tsushima slurry. Kept that up for a while then went to several very light passes under running water. Decided to stop with the stones there. Back to the seatbelt strop then to the leather strop. The edge is great (as far as my edges go). I’ll shave later tonight for the real test but arm hair test is showing it is at a new level for me.

I keep on saying thank you but all the advice given, I keep on adding piece by piece, I’m saying it again. Thank you all. From the start of this thread, my edges are night and day improved.

 

[JPO]

The 4k and 8k Naniwa strata

Nice to see you are making progress.

 

[Darth Scandalous]

If those Naniwas are what I think they are, from the model stamps, I think you're going to be really happy. Try shaving off the 8k some time. You might be surprised.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, guys get caught up in the minutia of synthetic grit rating and of the different grit rating systems from various synthetic stone makers. But it does not matter if your stone produces 5 or 6k stria, or which rating system was used, just that it is a progression that will remove the previous stria pattern to refine the edge.

There is more to a stone than the grit size used to make the stone, the binder plays a large part. Think Arks, the grit size of a hard ark is in the mid to low hundreds yet produces a polish equal to or higher than a 10 or 12k. So, grit size does not matter, as long as you are going in the right direction.

The way to test grit size is to take a blade to a high grit 8,10 or 12 stone, then strop on any good metal polish until all the stria is removed, .50um diamond or CBN also works, about 100 -200 laps.

Hone an even stria pattern with the test stone. Now make a mark at the blade mid-point on both sides with a sharpie, from spine to edge. Hone the top half of the blade with a known grit synthetic stone that you wish to compare to and lay down an even stria pattern, just keep the mid-point sharpie mark at the edge of the stone.

You now have both grit’s stria patterns side by side. Compare with magnification. This method also works well to “grit rate” some of your natural stones.

Keep in mind that using synthetic diamond slurry on most all synthetic stones will make them more aggressive, as will circles, honing on plain water on a clean stone will polish more.

If you are going to use seatbelt material, make sure to wash and scrub them well or use new. They do attract dirt and dust in the weave and a single grain of grit can ruin a nice polish. Seatbelts are great for holding paste.

If you are honing a damaged, pitted blade the damage often goes much deeper that the surface, and you must remove enough damaged steel to get to solid steel. So, lower grit stones will remove steel faster, 1k and sub 1k stones or diamond plates. All the deep stria will need to be removed though.

Often guys will try to remove a minimum of steel and the edge, weak steel fights you all the way. Surgeon’s call this, Cutting to the margins. Remove all the damaged tissue and a bit more to ensure you have clean health tissue that will heal. And not have to go back in to remove more later.

 

[Calou]

@ H Brad, Are you in favor of: more the bevel is mirror = more the edge is thin?

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

The 4k and 8k Naniwa strata

Nice to see you are making progress.

I’m still a fkn *******. I shaved and it sucked. Was wondering why. Checked the edge and the bottom 1/3rd wasn’t cutting hair at all. Honed again starting from 4K trying to figure out where I goofed up. I had been struggling with getting the toe sharp so much so that is all I was focused on. Got that sharp but never set the bevel on the heel.

In any event it was a learning experience and it was nice getting some relaxing honing time in. Got the heel and toe done on the Parker and a Boker. The Boker had the opposite problem, sharp heel, dull toe. Same solution for both - just needed to spend more time setting the bevel. (Shocker, right?) The Naniwas are performing excellently. Jointed, seatbelted, Nakayama, seatbelted, strop. The whole edge is good now. Super smooth on the arm. Will put it to the real test later.

If those Naniwas are what I think they are, from the model stamps, I think you're going to be really happy. Try shaving off the 8k some time. You might be surprised.

I was thinking exactly that. The arm hair shave test is just WOW. It certainly punches above its weight!

So, guys get caught up in the minutia of synthetic grit rating and of the different grit rating systems from various synthetic stone makers. But it does not matter if your stone produces 5 or 6k stria, or which rating system was used, just that it is a progression that will remove the previous stria pattern to refine the edge.

There is more to a stone than the grit size used to make the stone, the binder plays a large part. Think Arks, the grit size of a hard ark is in the mid to low hundreds yet produces a polish equal to or higher than a 10 or 12k. So, grit size does not matter, as long as you are going in the right direction.

The way to test grit size is to take a blade to a high grit 8,10 or 12 stone, then strop on any good metal polish until all the stria is removed, .50um diamond or CBN also works, about 100 -200 laps.

Hone an even stria pattern with the test stone. Now make a mark at the blade mid-point on both sides with a sharpie, from spine to edge. Hone the top half of the blade with a known grit synthetic stone that you wish to compare to and lay down an even stria pattern, just keep the mid-point sharpie mark at the edge of the stone.

You now have both grit’s stria patterns side by side. Compare with magnification. This method also works well to “grit rate” some of your natural stones.

Keep in mind that using synthetic diamond slurry on most all synthetic stones will make them more aggressive, as will circles, honing on plain water on a clean stone will polish more.

If you are going to use seatbelt material, make sure to wash and scrub them well or use new. They do attract dirt and dust in the weave and a single grain of grit can ruin a nice polish. Seatbelts are great for holding paste.

If you are honing a damaged, pitted blade the damage often goes much deeper that the surface, and you must remove enough damaged steel to get to solid steel. So, lower grit stones will remove steel faster, 1k and sub 1k stones or diamond plates. All the deep stria will need to be removed though.

Often guys will try to remove a minimum of steel and the edge, weak steel fights you all the way. Surgeon’s call this, Cutting to the margins. Remove all the damaged tissue and a bit more to ensure you have clean health tissue that will heal. And not have to go back in to remove more later.

I’m quite interested in comparing the Naniwas scratch patterns with the others I’ve already posted. The magnifier I am using is just a bit of a pain the the A to use. Last week was a frustrating week and I am just not up for dealing with annoyances. The feeling of pushing slurry around on a Nakayama quite alright.
I cleaned and scrubbed the seatbelts real good then put them in the washer and dryer. Just figured I would give these a try before spending money on something higher end. So far, for the money, they seem ok.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

I should probably change the title of this to “Mr. Kooby Progression”….

Had some time for a little Zen today.
Yes, that’s a burnished Ark!

Just needed a touch up on this 7/8 Parker.
This has a thick grind and a native bevel of just over 21 deg. With the naked eye, the bevel is super small, but it cuts well.
I put it on the SG20K first with soapy water.

There is no question, this stone gets stuff SHARP!
Next I put two pieces of Scotch tape on the spine (thanks for the neat idea Axe2Method Bro) and brought it to the blue-black Ark.

Note the angle of the light is slightly different. Bevel looks less refined to me, but the edge appears more refined and aligned.
Since there is a lot of talk lately about inclusions and pepper spots on Arks, mine has some black “blobs” inside of it.

This is wet with soapy water to help them show up better in the picture. Scores of online experts and other highly respected anonymous sources agree that the most important reason for burnishing your Arks is so that you can take cool pictures of them to post on the net.

After a short strop I took the razor for a shave. I could definitely feel the SG20K still there, i.e. Super sharp. A little more than I prefer actually. I’m pretty sure it will mellow a bit with a few more shaves and strops. Very good shave.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

So I picked up this Ohira Suita and it was looking like this.

It appears that the surface, besides needing a lot of lapping, is probably stained. It smells of cedar when dry but when lapping it, it smells atrocious.

Anyways, it is IMHO medium-hard. It doesn’t self-slurry when putting a knife on it, but it does shed grit easily when a diamond plate is used. Here it is after quite a bit of lapping (Stone on the right is a vintage Nakayama Mizu Asagi Maruka.)

It was time to compare this new stone to the standard of the Nakayama. I’ve been getting aggressive edges on knives and I thought this meant it would not be a razor finisher - it does not feel like a razor finisher. I was wrong.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Took the Rinnet SR. It was pretty sharp and a stropping would have sufficed but it was a good candidate for this test. Put it on the Nakayama to start as a baseline. This stone is very hard and fine. I used a tomo nagura for slurry.

So the next step was to use the new Ohira Suita with the same tomo. As this stone is faster and more aggressive than the Nakayama I was expecting a degradation in edge refinement. That was not the case.

The edge quality appears to be at least as good as the Nakayama, maybe even better.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

Next step was to use a diamond plate and do some laps with slurry from the Ohira.

This appears that there may be some very slight micro-chipping. It seems the best refinement, at least at this magnification, was with the tomo nagura. That said, I used this above edge, put it on the strops, and shaved with it. It was magnificent! Very sharp and smooth. Possibly my best edge ever.

Now I bought this stone anticipating getting another finisher (which I don’t really need), and up to now I’ve been using it only on knives. It’s a pretty fast stone. It does need some variety of slurry to get moving but, wow, it works fast.

Here is a mini Deba knife in white steel and diamond generated slurry.

The finish has a very slight kasumi haze. More pressure and half-strokes are used with a knife compared to a razor which is mostly edge-leading and very light pressure. This range of use is quite impressive.

This is a pretty sweet rock!

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

“Next I put two pieces of Scotch tape on the spine (thanks for the neat idea Axe2Method Bro) and brought it to the blue-black Ark. Note the angle of the light is slightly different. Bevel looks less refined to me, but the edge appears more refined and aligned.”

No, question with Arks you must experiment to find the stone finish that works for your stone and with your edge prep and technique. It’s not always how the bevel and edge look.

Lately I have been experimenting with much lower grit stone finishes with interesting results.

And the huge benefits of true micro (2-4 laps) bevel cannot be overlooked. A Micro bevel is a great tool to use with chippy or problem edges, comfort.

For Arks experiment with stone finish.

Your SG20 bevel looks a bit unfinished, years ago when I first purchased my 20, I was unimpressed with the bevels and edges it produced. I took an Atoma 140 to it and lapped off a bit of the stone, the finish improved dramatically, to a mirror finish. I have also noted that if the stone sits for a period without use it will grow a hard skin, that must be lapped off.

Try giving it a good lapping. Also don’t forget jointing the finished edge as another tool. Also try stropping between stone or Nagura to remove micro edge flashing/burr.

Nice Jnat bevels and edges, I very lightly joint the edges once finished, strop and do 10-20 finish laps on super thin slurry for a super straight Jnat edge.

Nice photos and work.

 

[H Brad Boonshaft]

So, the past couple weeks I have been experimenting with a bunch of wall hanger and drawer queen Jnats, (that have not been wet in years) and Jnat diamond slurry, just diamond slurry.

And all the finishing tricks, slurry thinning, jointing, stropping between slurry mix and refreshes, (linen, leather, paste), pressure and micro bevels, with eye opening results. Some of these stones got much better after a long rest…

Are you shaving off these edges? If not, you might be surprised.

 

[cotedupy]

“Be careful with soap, some synthetics binders do not react well with soap.”

The Sigma Power tolerates soap well. No issues there. I am aware that some stones and binders do not mix well with soap too.

Yeah - you've nowt to fear there.

The Sigmas are made in a fairly unusual way, and (as I understand it) they don't really have a binder in the way other synthetic waterstones stones do. The 'baking' production process is more similar to being vitrified or sintered. Also - I believe they're primarily or wholly SiC rather than AlOx, which is interesting.

Very unusual and crazy fast stones. I rather like what I've tried of them.

 

[cotedupy]

Yeah - you've nowt to fear there.

The SS2s are made in a fairly unusual way, and (as I understand it) they don't really have a binder in the way other synthetic waterstones stones do. The 'baking' production process is more similar to being vitrified or sintered. Also - I believe they're primarily or wholly SiC rather than AlOx, which is interesting.

Very unusual and crazy fast stones. I rather like what I've tried of them.

The only possible issue you might have is that because the 1k is known to absorb up to 47x its own weight in water* - it might get gunked up with half a ton of soap once you let it dry.

You could always use it in the bath afterwards I suppose...




* True fact.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

So, the past couple weeks I have been experimenting with a bunch of wall hanger and drawer queen Jnats, (that have not been wet in years) and Jnat diamond slurry, just diamond slurry.

And all the finishing tricks, slurry thinning, jointing, stropping between slurry mix and refreshes, (linen, leather, paste), pressure and micro bevels, with eye opening results. Some of these stones got much better after a long rest…

Are you shaving off these edges? If not, you might be surprised.

I’m using this thread as a repository both of my progress and of the sound advice given by you and others along this path. Since I started this thread I have shaved exclusively with a SR and exclusively off SR’s that I have honed. I was looking back at the first page and I’ve made a lot of progress in this relatively short period. I’m pretty happy with my edges now, this one last night especially so.

My SG20, I have lapped it with a couple different diamond plates and free from SiC. This last time it ripped some diamonds out of the plate, not unlike how an Ark does it. Maybe this one is from a batch, I don’t want to say a “bad” batch, but it’s different. It still gives a very good edge and I don’t prefer the feel of this as a final finisher so it performs quite well as a set up for a finisher.

 

[Mr Kooby Shemayrew]

The only possible issue you might have is that because the 1k is known to absorb up to 47x its own weight in water* - it might get gunked up with half a ton of soap once you let it dry.

You could always use it in the bath afterwards I suppose...




* True fact.

I’m pretty sure almost all the Sigmas are AlOx. I think one of the coarser ones are SiC…. Just checked. In their ceramic series only the 120 and 240 grit are SiC. The rest are AlOx. Not sure about their Select II series. Their website doesn’t say what they are made of.

I was using Dawn dish soap as a lubricant. I’m tempted to fill it with Vaseline. I would really like a splash n go version of the 1K and 2K stones. It doesn’t matter how long they soak in water. Water goes in the top and straight out the bottom. I did use a friend’s stand that keep the bottom wet with a Sigma 6K. The water percolated up from the bottom and this worked well. This stand isn’t adjustable though. Really aggressive stones.

 

[Herrenberg]

Not sure about their Select II series. Their website doesn’t say what they are made of.

Rabid velociraptors bred to devour metal, as far as I can tell.