Wade and Butcher stone progression
- Thread starter Mr Kooby Shemayrew
- Start date
I am confused, are we looking at comparison micrographs of 2 different razors or different spots of the same razor?
The pitted razor, W/B, yes, the steel is bad, or at least questionable, combine with the fact that you have needlessly ground away massive amount or steel on the spine needlessly, you may have, (likely) altered the bevel angle where the weak steel cannot support an edge that thin.
Put 2 layers of tape on the spine and re set the edge with 20 laps on your bevel setter. Just cut a secondary bevel, do not cut a whole new bevel. This is just a test, to see if an increased bevel angle will make an edge the steel will support.
Then polish off ALL THE 2K BEVEL SETTING STRIA. Did I say, ALL the 2K stria with your transitional 6K stone? Finish on the Jnat with diamond slurry and wispy slurry for final laps. Keep it simple.
It is easier to advise you on one razor at a time.
The pitted razor, W/B, yes, the steel is bad, or at least questionable, combine with the fact that you have needlessly ground away massive amount or steel on the spine needlessly, you may have, (likely) altered the bevel angle where the weak steel cannot support an edge that thin.
Put 2 layers of tape on the spine and re set the edge with 20 laps on your bevel setter. Just cut a secondary bevel, do not cut a whole new bevel. This is just a test, to see if an increased bevel angle will make an edge the steel will support.
Then polish off ALL THE 2K BEVEL SETTING STRIA. Did I say, ALL the 2K stria with your transitional 6K stone? Finish on the Jnat with diamond slurry and wispy slurry for final laps. Keep it simple.
It is easier to advise you on one razor at a time.
- Thread starter
- #23
The last 3 images are the edge of the Boker. Note the area behind the bevel isn’t pitted. Same progression on both razors, 2K-6K-Jnat, but the Boker shaves much smoother.
The W&B had a wobble in the spine on one side and it appeared that the bevel wasn’t making full contact with the stone. I only noticed this after grinding down the stabilizer and moving the bevel edge over - not sure why I hadn’t noticed it before that. Honed the spine and edge down flat. It’s shaving better. Not great and not better than the Boker, but much better than those first few scary outings. Next honing I’ll put the tape on it.
I got some veg tan leather in and I’m hoping to make some strops this weekend.
Yes, the Butcher is pitted and you did not need to flatten the spine. Now that you have it may be too thin for that weak steel.
Next time try tape and a rolling X stroke. Flattening a spine on a vintage razor is a technique, but not a necessary one. A proper rolling X stroke will easily hone a warped razor.
Also, on the Butcher there seems to be some deep bevel stria on the bevel at finish, spend more time on the transition stone to remove all the bevel setting stria. Removing all the deep bevel setting stria can be as important as fully setting a bevel, the rest is just polishing.
Not surprising the Boker shaved better than the Butcher.
Next time try tape and a rolling X stroke. Flattening a spine on a vintage razor is a technique, but not a necessary one. A proper rolling X stroke will easily hone a warped razor.
Also, on the Butcher there seems to be some deep bevel stria on the bevel at finish, spend more time on the transition stone to remove all the bevel setting stria. Removing all the deep bevel setting stria can be as important as fully setting a bevel, the rest is just polishing.
Not surprising the Boker shaved better than the Butcher.
It is easier to take photos with your microscope when you use a black background. It is difficult with these scopes to get a good read on the actual apex, but you should be able to see if the deeper striations are gone. The difference between a good shaving edge under this type of magnification is not easy to see. Even with a more expensive microscope it is not easy.
Them razors look like swiss cheese.
If it was me I would move on from them.
If it was me I would move on from them.
I can see pitting at the edge in your pics thumbnails... which are ~10x on my monitor. If I zoom in, the pictures are useless. The digital Mag has so many artifacts that could be pitting or completely false data. If you don't have a 100x or higher optical scope to continually check for microchips from pitting after every honing, you're going to keep @ this gradual improvement every time you push the edge back on razors that have this much pitting in them. You seem to be progressing at least, but to me, that's a lot of bad shaves to try and salvage a $10 razor. I'd suggest you either pick up an old 40-400x high school lab scope online for $25 - $50 (Basically shipping cost plus a few bucks... they're cheap but heavy) and a ~$10 gooseneck clipon light to rig up lighting to check for pitting/chips resulting from it before shaving or just move on to better condition razors.
Attachments
- Thread starter
- #28
That’s got a bit of sting to it…… probably because I paid $60 ($50+$10 shipping) for it. Maybe I can grind it down to just a nub to get some fresh steel.
The Boker on the other hand is becoming quite a nice razor, especially after…..
Wish you guys would have told me about this veg tanned leather before! Made this strop last weekend, and wow, this is very legit. I’ve bought / made leather strops before but none performed like this. 90mm wide and 23” long with 21” usable surface. I also made a 30mm wide one for pocket knives. I have enough material to do one or two more.
You are right though. It is time to look for something in better condition than this W&B.
- Thread starter
- #29
Update time……
Continued use and stropping of my first two razors continues to reveal that the W&B is just not comfortable while the Boker just gets better. Some of that is certainly improvement in my newb technique. Anyways it was time to add some new horses to the stable.
I picked these three guys up off the auctions: Parker, Manaslu, and Rinnet.
I got them on Wednesday so I’ve been itchin’ like crazy to put them on a stone. They needed some cleaning up first and I finally was able to block out some time today.
And a shout out to my ASMR, Keith V. Johnson. “I hone because I like to hone”, has been circling in my head all week.
And that is pertinent to the conversation because I didn’t have a whole lot of time and I was debating:
1) do I hone all 3 quickly, or
2) do I hone all 3 slowly and just get them to a bevel set, or
3) do 1 slowly and save the others for other sessions.
“I hone because I like to hone” repeated in my head. So #3 it is.
Continued use and stropping of my first two razors continues to reveal that the W&B is just not comfortable while the Boker just gets better. Some of that is certainly improvement in my newb technique. Anyways it was time to add some new horses to the stable.
I picked these three guys up off the auctions: Parker, Manaslu, and Rinnet.
I got them on Wednesday so I’ve been itchin’ like crazy to put them on a stone. They needed some cleaning up first and I finally was able to block out some time today.
And a shout out to my ASMR, Keith V. Johnson. “I hone because I like to hone”, has been circling in my head all week.
And that is pertinent to the conversation because I didn’t have a whole lot of time and I was debating:
1) do I hone all 3 quickly, or
2) do I hone all 3 slowly and just get them to a bevel set, or
3) do 1 slowly and save the others for other sessions.
“I hone because I like to hone” repeated in my head. So #3 it is.
- Thread starter
- #30
Honing session with my new old Manaslu. This is a pretty thin razor, at least the thinnest of the 5 I now own. It also gives off a bit of a hum on the strop that my other razors don’t do. (Is this considered “singing”?)
I decided to start with 2 layers of tape and go from the Sigma Power 6000. I previously killed the edge prior to cleaning it up so that I wouldn’t cut myself handling it. The SP 6K feels a bit rough to me for a 6K and I think it is comparable to a 5K or 4K. It certainly is fast and this session felt doubly so, probably in part due to the thinness of the blade. It got back to shaving arm hair in short order. I did use a King 8K nagura to generate slurry.
I decided to start with 2 layers of tape and go from the Sigma Power 6000. I previously killed the edge prior to cleaning it up so that I wouldn’t cut myself handling it. The SP 6K feels a bit rough to me for a 6K and I think it is comparable to a 5K or 4K. It certainly is fast and this session felt doubly so, probably in part due to the thinness of the blade. It got back to shaving arm hair in short order. I did use a King 8K nagura to generate slurry.
- Thread starter
- #31
Next up was a Dan’s hard Ark. I wanted to use this to see how it compared to the SP 6K as I am having a bit of difficulty pinning down a comparable synthetic grit rating. I absolutely love this stone for knives btw, and for a natural it has got some impressive speed to it.
And the results are….. just and ever so slight improvement. I would say it is around a 5K or 6K. Also if you look very close you can see that it didn’t get the whole bevel. This and the rest of the stones were used without slurry and it becomes more apparent they do not reach as far up without slurry.
And the results are….. just and ever so slight improvement. I would say it is around a 5K or 6K. Also if you look very close you can see that it didn’t get the whole bevel. This and the rest of the stones were used without slurry and it becomes more apparent they do not reach as far up without slurry.
- Thread starter
- #32
Next is the Spyderco UF bench stone. I wanted to throw this stone in the mix because I… “I buy hones because I like to buy hones.” Well, not really. Admittedly it was an impulse buy and I am just wanting to know how it fits in with my other finishers. With knives it works best dry and the knife needs to be real sharp to use this. It has a pretty narrow range. With this razor I used Dawn and water as I didn’t want to risk having to start back at zero.
It did noticeably improve the edge but not by some great margin. Kind of about what I expected but maybe not what I hoped for. Also note that it is only touching the front 1/5th part of the bevel. It is an unusual stone and I am still not sure how I feel about it.
It did noticeably improve the edge but not by some great margin. Kind of about what I expected but maybe not what I hoped for. Also note that it is only touching the front 1/5th part of the bevel. It is an unusual stone and I am still not sure how I feel about it.
- Thread starter
- #33
And next up to bat was the Suehiro 20K. I like this stone a lot. Very hard, smooth, forgiving, and it has some speed. Very few stones can approach how sharp this will get an edge. (I did coat this in cashew lacquer during my phase of coat-everything-with-cashew-lacquer.)
In retrospect I did make one mistake in that I should have used slurry. This stone seems to have gotten harder over the years. It starts off real hard and has gotten harder and also more difficult to generate slurry. I was going to soak it for a while first then flatten / abrade it later but I forgot so I just used it as is. I think it would have worked better with a fresh surface and slurry - that will have to wait until next session. Nevertheless it is still a pretty bad *** stone and the razor did shave arm hair smoother after using it.
In retrospect I did make one mistake in that I should have used slurry. This stone seems to have gotten harder over the years. It starts off real hard and has gotten harder and also more difficult to generate slurry. I was going to soak it for a while first then flatten / abrade it later but I forgot so I just used it as is. I think it would have worked better with a fresh surface and slurry - that will have to wait until next session. Nevertheless it is still a pretty bad *** stone and the razor did shave arm hair smoother after using it.
- Thread starter
- #34
And the final Boss before the strops, one of my favorite stones, a “Surgical” Black Ark. I used this stone a lot and I still love it but I finally got a Dan’s Blue-Black. (If anyone has any nagura sets they might want to trade, let me know.) I also wanted to get an answer to a long time question, could a black Ark improve the Suehiro 20K edge?
And the answer is, yes.
And the answer is, yes.
- Thread starter
- #35
Last is the strops. Thanks to H Brad Boonshaft for the advice. I made this with some veg tanned leather from Amazon, no pastes, and it blew away all my previously made strops. So much so that I gave them all away.
Next stop…… the shave.
Next stop…… the shave.
“Also if you look very close you can see that it didn’t get the whole bevel. This and the rest of the stones were used without slurry and it becomes more apparent they do not reach as far up without slurry.”
Likely because the blade is hollow ground and very thin, you are using too much pressure flexing the blade, the back of the bevel is acting as a fulcrum and lifting the edge off the stone. Watch your pressure with hollow ground razors, it does not take much pressure to lift the edge. Some colored sharpie ink will quickly tell you without having to look through a loupe.
You can use slurry to remove steel, but you want to finish each stone without slurry or very thin slurry that is friable. Synthetic slurry is not friable and will impact/dull the edge.
Also check your tape make sure you have not burned through, you can feel when you burn through, feels gummy.
It does not matter what the grit finish of the 6k is, just that it is between a 1k and your finish stone. A Sigma is a good stone.
A 6k should easily set a bevel on a razor without chips. Try some lite, no slurry finish laps to refine/ lessen the deep stria, straighten the edge on the 6k. A little more time on the finish laps will save you a lot of time on the next stone in the progression, and make a stronger, straighter edge.
You can remove all the deep stria with the hard Ark, then do your progression again. All the deep stria will end in a microchip at the edge. You want to remove all the previous grits stria with the following stone.
Try some circles, maybe 20 to remove the deep stria, then x strokes to remove the circle stria and refine the bevels and edge, no slurry.
Yes, if you re-lap the SG20, (it does build up a “skin) you can get a bit more performance/range from it, should be mirror finish. Soaking the SG20 does not affect it
A good hard black Ark will improve an SG20 edge and make the edge more comfortable. An SG20 edge is harsh to me.
Good choice. Hone one razor from start to finish. Each may/will require different technique. You hone each razor as it needs to be honed.
Nice work, much improvement. With a little different technique, (remove all the bevel setting stria with the transition stone) you can get a smoking edge and get the full benefit from each stone.
Nice photos from that magnifier.
Likely because the blade is hollow ground and very thin, you are using too much pressure flexing the blade, the back of the bevel is acting as a fulcrum and lifting the edge off the stone. Watch your pressure with hollow ground razors, it does not take much pressure to lift the edge. Some colored sharpie ink will quickly tell you without having to look through a loupe.
You can use slurry to remove steel, but you want to finish each stone without slurry or very thin slurry that is friable. Synthetic slurry is not friable and will impact/dull the edge.
Also check your tape make sure you have not burned through, you can feel when you burn through, feels gummy.
It does not matter what the grit finish of the 6k is, just that it is between a 1k and your finish stone. A Sigma is a good stone.
A 6k should easily set a bevel on a razor without chips. Try some lite, no slurry finish laps to refine/ lessen the deep stria, straighten the edge on the 6k. A little more time on the finish laps will save you a lot of time on the next stone in the progression, and make a stronger, straighter edge.
You can remove all the deep stria with the hard Ark, then do your progression again. All the deep stria will end in a microchip at the edge. You want to remove all the previous grits stria with the following stone.
Try some circles, maybe 20 to remove the deep stria, then x strokes to remove the circle stria and refine the bevels and edge, no slurry.
Yes, if you re-lap the SG20, (it does build up a “skin) you can get a bit more performance/range from it, should be mirror finish. Soaking the SG20 does not affect it
A good hard black Ark will improve an SG20 edge and make the edge more comfortable. An SG20 edge is harsh to me.
Good choice. Hone one razor from start to finish. Each may/will require different technique. You hone each razor as it needs to be honed.
Nice work, much improvement. With a little different technique, (remove all the bevel setting stria with the transition stone) you can get a smoking edge and get the full benefit from each stone.
Nice photos from that magnifier.
- Thread starter
- #37
I think it is reversed. The slurry is cutting a wider bevel where the non-slurry is only touching the area closest to the edge. I’m also using two pieces of tape so the angle might be higher than usual.
You are spot on about the non-slurry with the 6K. I should have done a full set on the 6K without slurry after the slurry set to flatten the bevel. Getting that flat flat would have paid dividends later.
FWIW, each set I started with circles, then 45deg half strokes, 90deg half strokes, then a variety of x strokes, and finished under running water. I’m still struggling with the toe though.
I appreciate all the words of advice and the time you’ve put into helping me. Thanks.
So the shave…. About as sharp and smooth as my Boker with one glaring exception. This razor would not cut me. Literally my first shave with zero nicks or cuts. Even my DE will happily let me know where any bumps are. This is just, a damn nice surprise.
I’m going to have to do a similar progression with the Boker to try to figure out why this is so different.
It is not about the slurry, it is the pressure and flexing the blade.
Slurry will generally polish the edge first, picture honing on a layer of micro ball bearings, as you hone edge leading on the balls, the edge dives into the bearings and touches the stone and the back is suspended. The edge is honed first with slurry.
It does not take much pressure to flex a blade and most folks use more pressure when bevel setting unconscientiously, because they want to get the bevels to meet.
Bottom line is, if you are not honing to the edge, you must figure out why, note the red arrows on the right side of the bevel at bevel set. Because you used aggressive finishers, they seem to hone the edge.
The SG20 can be aggressive, and even bevel set and remove small chips, though I do not recommend it as a bevel setter, there are better choices.
You can reduce deep stria from any bevel setter, even 1k by doing lighter finish laps on a clean freshly re-lapped stone. If you get in the habit of refining and getting the most from each stone, your edges will improve.
Edges are built, it is not just the finish stone that makes an edge.
So, you have discovered a Hard Black Ark edge, they are unique, smooth, and keen, crisp.
You are making good progress, quickly.
Slurry will generally polish the edge first, picture honing on a layer of micro ball bearings, as you hone edge leading on the balls, the edge dives into the bearings and touches the stone and the back is suspended. The edge is honed first with slurry.
It does not take much pressure to flex a blade and most folks use more pressure when bevel setting unconscientiously, because they want to get the bevels to meet.
Bottom line is, if you are not honing to the edge, you must figure out why, note the red arrows on the right side of the bevel at bevel set. Because you used aggressive finishers, they seem to hone the edge.
The SG20 can be aggressive, and even bevel set and remove small chips, though I do not recommend it as a bevel setter, there are better choices.
You can reduce deep stria from any bevel setter, even 1k by doing lighter finish laps on a clean freshly re-lapped stone. If you get in the habit of refining and getting the most from each stone, your edges will improve.
Edges are built, it is not just the finish stone that makes an edge.
So, you have discovered a Hard Black Ark edge, they are unique, smooth, and keen, crisp.
You are making good progress, quickly.
- Thread starter
- #39
I hadn’t thought about this before, however, now that you’ve said it, I’ve no choice but to try it!
Work up a little slurry with a diamond plate to set the bevel, with circles and X laps. Then wash the stone and razor, joint the edge lightly and reset the bevel on just water and a clean stone.
A little slurry will make the stone more aggressive but, will damage the edge, with the slurry pounding it.
Once the bevels are flat, you can bring the edges back to meeting quickly on a clean stone.
May take a few laps and a little pressure depending on the condition of the bevel and edge.
You will be surprised how aggressive that stone can be. A lap or two can pump up a failing edge. Too many laps and the edge is sharp, but harsh.
Experiment, with a 20k stone, what's the worst that can happen?
A little slurry will make the stone more aggressive but, will damage the edge, with the slurry pounding it.
Once the bevels are flat, you can bring the edges back to meeting quickly on a clean stone.
May take a few laps and a little pressure depending on the condition of the bevel and edge.
You will be surprised how aggressive that stone can be. A lap or two can pump up a failing edge. Too many laps and the edge is sharp, but harsh.
Experiment, with a 20k stone, what's the worst that can happen?
